--- Log opened Thu Apr 24 00:00:55 2025
00:01 < oldlaptop> If that is (as it appears to be) a desktop machine, you should be able to drop an AMD video card (almost any of them, although older is probably better up to a point) and have things work just fine.
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00:02 < oldlaptop> If that motherboard supports it, you should also be able to unplug the NVIDIA product, use it as the paperweight NVIDIA intended, and run with the Intel integrated GPU.
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00:02 < mischief> it appears to be a gtx 960, way too new for nv(4)
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00:04 < oldlaptop> roughly fits with a haswell(?) CPU
00:05 < mischief> it is a haswell, but the igpu doesn't seem to appear in dmesg
00:06 < mischief> maybe need to uninstall the discrete gpu and poke the bios
00:06 < anelli> " i install openbsd 7.6. The graphic mode worked"   "After rebooting - no" caught me off tho
00:07 < oldlaptop> judging from the image at https://www.asrock.com/mb/Intel/Z97 Pro4/ there sure ought to be some way to make it show up
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00:07 < mischief> recently my silly coworker brought in a gtx 1080 and installed it in one of our amd 9950x build boxes xD
00:08 < mischief> like putting a hot air balloon on a rocket
00:09 < oldlaptop> the cool kids don't want those anymore?
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04:01 < mischief2> dlg: nice drop on the lldp daemon
04:01 < mischief2> unfortunately i only have lldpd to test it with
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04:19 < dlg> still worth trying
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06:19 < mischief2> dlg: i guess i need current and i'm waiting for the release to go out to upgrade my firewall. soon(tm)
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08:40 < Posterdati> hi\
08:40 < Posterdati> please help, how can I compile, from ports, ngircd with identd flavor? Thanks!
08:43 < IcePic> Posterdati: https://man.openbsd.org/ports#FLAVORS
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08:44 < Posterdati> IcePic: Thanks
08:44 < IcePic> Posterdati: kind of defeats the point of obsd devs writing docs if noone reads them. 8-(
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08:45 < Posterdati> IcePic: is used FLAVORS instead of FLAVOR
08:46 < IcePic> so you mean you searched for FLAVOR in this doc and did not find it because the word had an S at the end?
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09:04 < Posterdati> IcePic: no I read it, but made a mistake :)
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09:28 < vortexx> ssm_: I got ppp working between two VMs, have to go out but I'll write a pastebin with the relevant commands + files to edit, it's actually pretty easy now I've understood what jcs did to get his Mac 512Ke online
09:28 < vortexx> (via virtual null modem)
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09:30 < vortexx> no chat-script needed either!
09:32 < IcePic> nice
09:32 < IcePic> I'e never done ppp properly, went from slip -> ethernet without stopping by ppp =)
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10:00 < vortexx> IcePic: I did ppp on linux for a very short period while I waited for a cablemodem connection
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12:15  * sonya had some 'pppd' experience a decades ago for XP and linux.. but now.. only thing left is: create a tunnel and adjust routes for it (separate for isp's lan, isp's internet and my own lan).. 
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13:24 < sonya> sonya hello
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13:25 < sonya> sorry.. script test..
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13:54  * oldlaptop prepares sonya's immediate and brutal punishment for emitting mIRC color codes
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14:21 < eea> mIRC color codes that didn't get mangled by irssi, woo.
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14:26 < sibiria> ansi color codes
14:28 < prahoax> oh no
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15:49 < vortexx> ssm_: https://paste.debian.net/1371325/ PPP over nullmodem with noauth so as simple as possible
15:50 < vortexx> maybe this should be added to the faq? Could help people trying to bring up hardware where the only working thing are uarts?
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15:58 < vortexx> damn it, kill -HUP 1 is for init not getty :P
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15:58 < vortexx> brainfart there
15:58 < vortexx> anyway it's the right command
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16:05 < Bradipo> vortexx: Wow, I haven't done PPP over nullmodem in 20 years...
16:05 < Bradipo> Is there still a need?
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16:09 < vortexx> Bradipo: ssm is trying to bring up a risc-v board I believe and he doesn't have ethernet or usb working yet, thus the need to have PPP over nullmodem working to avoid the pain of xmodem / sneakernet
16:09 < Bradipo> Cool.
16:09 < Bradipo> Well, that's fun.
16:10 < vortexx> yeah it's fun. I did it with two VMs in bhyve
16:11 < vortexx> wish I'd figured out jcs's blog post sooner but this morning I was a lot more inspired to get it all working
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16:45 < johnjaye> i don't see jcs's blog post in the scrollback. do you have it?
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16:47 < vortexx> johnjaye: https://jcs.org/2020/09/03/wifi232_ppp
16:48 < vortexx> it's not OpenBSD <-> OpenBSD but using OpenBSD as a gateway for a Mac512Ke
16:48 < vortexx> but the important line is there, for /etc/ttys
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16:50 < johnjaye> yeah my eyes kinda glazed over at the start when he was talking about putting adapters over the adapter for the rs232 port
16:52 < vortexx> the funny thing is, from looking through misc@ I can't anyone having bothered to mail to ask about this
16:53 < Bradipo> Fortunately, I still have nullmodem cables on hand.
16:53 < vortexx> so do I
16:53 < Bradipo> So jcs' article is about hooking up an ancient Mac to the internet using OpenBSD and nullmodem?
16:55 < vortexx> yes
16:56 < vortexx> and also accessing BBSes
16:56 < vortexx> from the Mac
16:56 < vortexx> believe or not, BBSes have been having a hobbyist revival, possibly because people want to talk without the noise of social media
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16:57 < vortexx> (the BBS documentary probably helped to, well done Jason Scott)
16:57 < vortexx> s/to,/too,
16:57 < thrig> also nostalgia is hella drug
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16:58 < Bradipo> BBS is older than IRC, so that's pretty amazing.
16:58 < johnjaye> why not just switch to the gemini protocol
16:58 < johnjaye> a text only web with some images
16:58 < vortexx> some are using gopher servers for that
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16:59 < thrig> BBS offered more than (regular) gemini clients, e.g. interactive menus and whatnot
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17:01 < vortexx> I'm copying src.tar.gz via scp over ppp0 to see if handles it, doing well so far but slow of course
17:02 < vortexx>  IN   PACK VJCOMP  VJUNC  VJERR  |      OUT   PACK VJCOMP  VJUNC NON-VJ
17:02 < vortexx> 15175773   9097   3160   5770      0  |  3081865   9923   2985   6799    139
17:02 < vortexx> (from pppstats)
17:02 < Bradipo> What's the rate?  115200?
17:02 < vortexx> yep
17:03 < vortexx> I could probably up it since it's just VMs but I'm sure what the max speed of a 16550 chip is
17:03 < vortexx> s/I'm sure/I'm not sure
17:04 < vortexx> I really should eat, my typing is suffering :P
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17:07 < ssm_> vortexx: neat, though I kind of stopped worrying about it as much since I moved the kernel source over manually with the tf card so I can work on getting usb working
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17:08 < ssm_> once that's online I can use ethernet
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17:29 < johnjaye> vortexx: if you don't mind my asking how do you setup vms on openbsd?
17:29 < johnjaye> i've read docs on like qemu and the like and i don't understand them at all
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17:30 < oldlaptop> If possible, you'd want to be using vmd(8), not qemu.
17:30 < johnjaye> oh i see openbsd has its own framework for it
17:31 < johnjaye> yes i suspected as much
17:31 < oldlaptop> qemu is (on openbsd) an emulator - it would be suitable for emulating a PowerPC CPU on an amd64 machine, or something like that.
17:31 < anelli> johnjaye: this is nice https://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq16.html
17:31 < oldlaptop> (It's possible to emulate an amd64 CPU on an amd64 machine too, of course, but emulation is much slower than virtualization, with vmd(8)/vmm(4).)
17:33 < oldlaptop> You might (mileage varies, you get to keep both pieces when it breaks, etc.) be able to run OSes other than openbsd or linux under vmm(4) - ISTR netbsd was one of the earliest kernels to boot, way back in the day.
17:35 < johnjaye> hmm i see
17:38 < seninha> 9front also work on VMM, i used to run it on vmm ~2 years ago
17:39 < remiliascarlet> In my experience, VMM only ever worked with OpenBSD and Debian.
17:39 < sibiria> alpine works great, void linux works great
17:52 < vortexx> ssm_: k
17:53 < vortexx> ssm_: I'm not surprised you gave up on it, but at least now if you need some package or other whilst hacking on the kernel you can add it easily (just remember to sysctl net.inet.ip.forwarding=1 on the uplink machine)
17:53 < vortexx> johnjaye: I haven't touched vmm in 5 years but the faq covers just about everything iirc
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17:54 < vortexx> might be worth pushing out a default route + dns over ppp too, you can pass that info as options in the ttys file's pppd line
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18:15 < ssm_> vortexx: I'll look at your configs if you want to share :)
18:16 < ssm_> it was just too much effort for moving a cvs branch
18:16 < ssm_> would be a useful thing to know in the future though
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18:19 < gsekulski> hey guys, looking to switch from nixos to some alternative os as my primary desktop. Been considering OpenBSD, FreeBSD and Debian. How do these compare? I see some advantages, like a reasonable package manager and no-systemd on BSDs, but that's not enough, Debian certainly have a much wider range of compatible hardware
18:20 < Bradipo> You'll just have to try it.
18:20 < Bradipo> Some of us run OpenBSD as a desktop system, but we don't have your preferences, likes, abilities, etc.
18:20 < gsekulski> Thinkpad T470s with Mate DE if it matters
18:20 < johnjaye> but nixos is the ultimate os. they tell me so. only a heretic would say otherwise
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18:21 < gsekulski> well...
18:21 < johnjaye> gsekulski: i've run all of those with varying success. if a laptop freebsd is a lot better than it used to be re wifi drivers
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18:22 < armin> I got Unbound listening on 127.0.0.1:53 - I've tried putting "interface 0.0.0.0" in unbound.conf (and re-started it) but it still listens on 127.0.0.1 only, any hint what I'm missing here?
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18:23 < armin> "interface: 0.0.0.0" <- like this, sorry, forgot the colon when typing.
18:24 < ssm_> gsekulski: openbsd and freebsd are very different. netbsd and openbsd are closer but also very different (they've basically been moving in separate directions since linux' inception). none follow nixOS's declarative/immutable paradigm, though freebsd may be the closest. I haven't used freebsd yet, but I have use gentoo, who's portage software is inspired by freebsd ports.
18:24 < gsekulski> johnjaye what about bluetooth? my software requirements are not high, I only use basic tools + from time to time I need to boot up some virtual machine
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18:26 < Bradipo> gsekulski: Forget bluetooth on OpenBSD.
18:27 < gsekulski> well, the choice remains between debian and freebsd
18:28 < ssm_> openbsd and netbsd have nothing like freebsd or gentoo's useflags, you have your own patches and port makefile infrastructure (bsd.port.mk). knob twisting is discouraged here, and if you do it, you keep it to yourself
18:28 < Bradipo> gsekulski: Thanks for trying OpenBSD. lol.
18:29 < gsekulski> ^^
18:30 < ssm_> that being said, I do have my own custom ports, and once you get used to writing your own scripts to manage things, it's more powerful and enjoyable than makeflags personally
18:30 < ssm_> s/makeflags/useflags
18:33 < vortexx> ssm_: I posted a pastebin higher up if you want the configs
18:33 < vortexx> https://paste.debian.net/1371325/ here you go
18:33 < ssm_> gsekulski: netbsd has bluetooth support, though I can't comment on its security https://www.netbsd.org/docs/guide/en/chap-bluetooth.html
18:34 < ssm_> vortexx: ty
18:34 < vortexx> yw
18:34 < johnjaye> gsekulski: i'm not sure tbh.
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18:35 < vortexx> ssm_: when I'm done setting up my how I'll give pushing default route + dns from uplink ppp server a go just to see
18:35 < vortexx> s/my how/my show
18:35 < johnjaye> also you can run one system on hardware and the other in vm
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18:37 < gsekulski> johnjaye I think I'll do that, I'll play with freebsd for a week or two on VM and if everything is fine I'll thank the current nixos for the cooperation and will hire freebsd
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18:37 < gsekulski> thanks!
18:38 < johnjaye> np. i thought about trying nixos in the past. but i didn't think too deeply about it.
18:38 < johnjaye> how does the declarative config stuff work in practice?
18:38 < Bradipo> Now, maybe you should go to #freebsd and they'll help you realize that you want to use NetBSD, then go to #netbsd and they'll help you to figure out that you really wanted OpenBSD. :-)
18:39 < johnjaye> you can have multiple versions of the same software? so you can have gcc8,9,10,11, and 12 installed?
18:39 < Bradipo> OpenBSD also has multiple versions of packages.  jdk comes to mind as to various versions of python and tcl.
18:40 < vortexx> johnjaye: yes because some packages require different versions of the compiler
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18:50 < ssm_> johnjaye: <how does the declarative config stuff work in practice> having your configs spread nicely across multiple files in /etc/ and managed by changelist and @sample? do you hate FHS? what if instead of that you wanted all your configs shoved into one giant nasty non-portable DSL instead? if this is a concern of yours, nixOS may be the choice for you
18:50 < AlaskanEmily> I'm having an odd issue where whenever resolvd is restarted, my resolv.conf is being overwritten and my resolv.conf.head/tail are being ignored. The entries each have the name of an interface following them so I suspected the DHCP client was doing this, but my /etc/dhclient.conf has something else as supersede domain-name-servers than what is in the resolv.conf. How can I determine what is causing this and either stop it or have it set the 
18:50 < AlaskanEmily> first DNS server to something else?
18:51 < ssm_> s/having/do you like &/
18:51 < johnjaye> ssm_: i don't hate the FHS but it probably helps if you want nix
18:52 < ssm_> s/do you like/are you tired of/
18:53 < ssm_> I love fixing my substitutions
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18:55 < armin> so basically I just built my first OpenBSD router with pf successfully and that thing works just great, my only issue is to understand this "unbound" thing here, I'm close to giving up and replacing that thing with powerdns, someone should stop me from doing so lol
18:56 < Bradipo> You can use whatever DNS suits you. :-)
18:58 < armin> Bradipo: In all honesty, I'm surprised I even got so far, I'm not the smartest person and got several issues I don't want to talk about here, I'm impressed how fast I was able to implement those non-trivial things to say the least.
18:59 < armin> Bradipo: but yea I just discovered a new sandbox so to speak
19:01 < ssm_> unbound is an external utility, our inhouse resolver is unwind; but depending on your usecase it may be too limited
19:04 < armin> ssm_: I think I'm just stuck at some very trivial problem I don't grasp/understand (yet), so far otherwise my sail has been smooth, I could probably just get drunk and see if it's fixed when waking up tomorrow, too.
19:04 < ssm_> the best solutions always arrive drunk at 4AM in a hypnogogic state
19:04 < armin> oh absolutely!
19:05 < vortexx> armin: I'm still on isc-bind because it used to be in base, a long time ago
19:05 < vortexx> maybe one day I will migrate to full in base DNS but I've never gotten round to it
19:05 < armin> vortexx: I have very dark memories when thinking about bind, something with thaw/freeze and weird zone files...
19:05 < mischief> unbound works fine here
19:06 < armin> mischief: I'm 100% sure I'm just too stupid to understand why it's not listening on 0.0.0.0
19:06 < vortexx> armin: v4 & 8 were nasty, v9 is fine
19:07 < mischief> well i don't listen on wildcard, but the IP of my lan
19:08 < seninha> Hi, has the list of install sets (baseXX.tgz, manXX.tgz, etc) ever changed in previous releases?
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19:09 < mischief> armin: my conf, with DoT http://paste.debian.net/hidden/f298a38f/
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19:11 < armin> mischief: my assumption is that the "interface: 192.168.0.1" line there would make it listen on its own interface that has the 192.168.0.1 address, correct?
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19:12 < mischief> yes, that's my lan-facing vport0
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19:13 < armin> mischief: thank you.
19:15 < mischief> hm. i wonder how to get unbound to listen on ipv6 too...
19:16 < CosmicDJ> unbound.conf's "interface: " also accepts an interface name (see ifconfig)
19:16 < Bradipo> Does it accept groups too?
19:17 < mischief> CosmicDJ: it does, but i presume it would only do v4 since you need two sockets on openbsd for different families, IIRC.
19:17 < mischief> i suppose i can try..
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19:19 < mischief> neat: fugu# netstat -n -l -p udp -f inet6 | grep 53
19:19 < mischief> udp6         0      0  fe80::fce1:baff:.53    *.*                   
19:20 < mischief> udp6         0      0  2604:5500:c29f:e.53    *.*                   
19:20 < vortexx> seninha: there used to be a etcXX.tgz
19:20 < Bradipo> Yes, you need two sockets, but that's not so challenging.  Every daemon that works on OpenBSD and supports IPv6 does it that way.
19:20 < Bradipo> Heck, even identd works.
19:21 < vortexx> and possibly an xetcXX.tgz even
19:21 < seninha> vortexx, thanks
19:21 < vortexx> yw
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19:24  * oldlaptop would also suggest looking at local-zone, once unbound is otherwise spun up and working
19:25 < oldlaptop> (think of it as /etc/hosts for the whole network, sort of.)
19:30 < mischief> i just use mdns. :x
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19:47 < ssm_> vortexx: copied your config 1:1 but ppp0 doesn't get assigned an address
19:47 < ssm_> maybe tty01 is wrong? I'm connected over /dev/cuaU0 and /dev/console
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19:49 < ssm_> I'm connecting ftdi to a usb-c breakout board, not a nullmodem
19:51 < armin> CosmicDJ: I tried both already, interface name, 192.168.1.2, and so on, I'm pretty sure there's some very trivial thing that haunts me already...
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19:52 < CosmicDJ> armin: what's the problem with unbound?
19:52 < Bradipo> armin: no errors or warnings in logs?
19:52 < oldlaptop> armin: Have you pastebinned your config anywhere yet? Or any log/errors?
19:52 < CosmicDJ> or what are you trying to do? why do you need unbound?
19:52 < oldlaptop> (syslog, or you could run unbound with https://man.openbsd.org/unbound#d)
19:53 < vortexx> ssm_: yeah it needs to be the right console port, is /dev/console com0 in dmesg? That'll be tty00
19:53 < vortexx>  /dev/cuaU0 on the other one
19:54 < armin> CosmicDJ, Bradipo, oldlaptop: Thank you so much for your replies, I will try to get my ***** ready until tomorrow, got my dad on the phone so no mental attention right now, my apologies, will get back to you, though, thanks again.
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20:09 < ssm_> vortexx: it worked!
20:10 < ssm_> it's a little slower with ssh than a direct cu connection, but that's fine
20:13 < vortexx> ssm_: congrats! Now you're cooking with gas
20:13 < sonya> mischief: just thought that it'd be better to set T1 as % from pltime, if T1 == 0 .. or 'short' leases could be inconvenient..
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20:56 < mischief> sonya: my pltime is ~230 days, lol
20:57 < ssm_> vortexx: I almost tried exactly what you did, but I set it to use console instead of tty00. maybe that's why
21:02 < ssm_> watching the tcp syn ack exchange on the tx and rx lights in real time when I connect is cool
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21:11 < vortexx> https://paste.debian.net/1371383/ pppd just crashed the VM during a 230Mb tgz transfer
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21:13 < vortexx> ssm_: yeah I think console isn't a capable like tty00 is
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21:15 < vortexx> always nice to to see the blinkenlights
21:17 < ssm_> got external networking routing through serial
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21:24 < ssm_> managed to download speedtest-cli after like 3 minutes lol
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21:26 < ssm_> 0.06 Mbit/s down, 0.12 Mbit/s up; still faster than i2p
21:26 < vortexx> that's pretty fast for serial :)
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21:28 < vortexx> pppstats can be of use too
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21:29 < vortexx> my vm is now corrupted :/
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21:30 < Bradipo> corrupted because you downloaded speedtest-cli?
21:31 < ssm_> vortexx: `$ pppstats | rs -T | sed 's/ \{1,\}/ /' | tr '\n' \|` == IN 1964457|PACK 17314|VJCOMP 6055|VJUNC 10930|VJERR 0|| ||OUT 4782197|PACK 16606|VJCOMP 3425|VJUNC 12968|NON-VJ 213|
21:31 < Bradipo> Nice to see someone use rs(1).
21:32 < ssm_> it belongs in posix!
21:34 < ssm_> I basically only use rs -T, I need to open the manual to do anything else with it
21:34 < Bradipo> I use rs mostly for reshaping into different rows columns.  I rarely use -T though.
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22:22 < farhan> Quick question - does OpenBSD have dtrace? I don't see it on a system of mine
22:22 < sibiria> ktrace is in the base system
22:23 < oldlaptop> (ktrace traces system calls; dtrace is solaris' other crazy magic thing that, much like zfs, we'll probably never have)
22:23 < sibiria> solaris + macOS
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22:25 < farhan> is it equivalent in terms of script?
22:28 < Bradipo> script?
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22:28 < farhan> sorry, that was not a clear question - I'm looking for a sample script.
22:29 < oldlaptop> No, not least because ktrace does not have "scripts".
22:29 < oldlaptop> You should read its manual page. (Or, if you're trying to accomplish some specific task, describe that and ask for specific advice.)
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22:30 < farhan> so, regarding the athn driver, I want to print out the arguments of a function whenever they execute. For example, "function1 executed"
22:31 < farhan> I'm specifically referring to the kernel.
22:31 < oldlaptop> I would expect you want https://man.openbsd.org/printf.9
22:32 < farhan> true, in the kernel, but I was thinking I could do it dynamically.
22:33 < mischief> there is dt(4)
22:34 < mischief> c.f. btrace(8) / bt(5)
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23:28 < seninha> Hi, has anyone used full disk encryption on SSD? Is using OpenBSD and/or encryption too write-intensive and can decrease the SSD lifetime?
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23:33 < mischief> depends on what you do with it.
23:35 < ssm_> seninha: I used it for a year or two. it's fine, but it definitely significantly increased my risk of a file not surviving an unclean shutdown
23:36 < emmanuelux> interesting question, how deal encrypted disk when a corrupt file occurs 
23:37 < ssm_> if it appears in a lost+found at a partition root after fsck, you can try to figure out what it was
23:37 < ssm_> but your disk will still successfully decrypt no matter what
23:38 < ssm_> key is stored on a RAID partition that isn't mounted anywhere
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23:55 < sibiria> seninha: it's same write-intensive as non-FDE
23:55 < sibiria> block level encryption. it doesn't do anything extra on the disk. it encrypts before write, decrypts after read
23:56 < sibiria> only real drawback with openbsd's FDE is that it definitely eats a bit of i/o performance
23:58 < sibiria> nowhere close to the transparent performance of macOS' and linux' offerings
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--- Log closed Fri Apr 25 00:00:24 2025