--- Log opened Sat Apr 26 00:00:58 2025
00:02 < mischief> i'm on gentoo :)
00:03 < mischief> i deselected chromium recently since i got tired of waiting for it to build and almost never using it
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00:15 < vortexx> ungoogled-chromium is the way
00:15 < vortexx> I moved away from gentoo because it took a week to build stuff on my atom proc in 2011
00:16 < anelli> the blink marketshare is crazy tho
00:16 < anelli> close to monopoly
00:16 < vortexx> you can't optimise for slow
00:16 < vortexx> blink?
00:16 < anelli> yeah, chromium, qtwebengine, etcetc
00:18 < anelli> big 3 are blink, gecko, and webkit. and bc chrom/edge/samsunginternet/opera are blink, it's not looking good for browsers https://gs.statcounter.com/browser-market-share/
00:19 < anelli> ig apple has a slight webkit marketshare in firefox and chrom due to forcing everyone to use their webkit engine but i don think it'd change the marketshare much
00:20 < anelli> so yeah i was tryna get on some webkit bc i couldn't find firefox forks in the tree aaand they tend to crash a lot
00:20 < anelli> badwolf and co
00:21 < mischief> vortexx: it takes 3 times longer to build than firefox, and i never used it really. i probably selected it because some random website didn't work in firefox.
00:21 < mischief> my recent best build for firefox is 27m and that's partially due to PGO, so it builds twice
00:22 < mischief> for chromium, it's 1h30m on a good day
00:22 < mischief> and chromium has no PGO.
00:24 < anelli> maybe someday we'd be able to browse the internet on links2/w3m
00:24 < anelli> ik we can but yall get me
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00:24 < rnelson> Used to be able to, it was great.
00:25 < anelli> based tbh
00:25 < rnelson> I could also check my Gmail using the built-in browser on my Kindle 3 ("Kindle Keyboard"). Ahh, the past, how lovely you were.
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00:25 < anelli> we need like some regulation from the EU or something xD like how they forced whatsapp to "open up" to other socials
00:27 < Bradipo> I disagree.  If they don't want to "open up" and people don't like that, they can stop using it.
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00:33 < oldlaptop> I can't stop using it! I wasn't using it in the first place!
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00:35 < Bradipo> But I think we need some regulation then to force you to use it!
00:36 < anelli> Bradipo: i mean you have no option with some stuff like government websites, academia, work
00:36 < Bradipo> Well, there's always an option, it's just not savory to take it.
00:37 < anelli> exiting society is an extreme option xD
00:37 < Bradipo> Oh, that's only one of the options.
00:37 < anelli> like some stuff just gets deadlocked if you don't run some js slop 
00:37 < Bradipo> Yeah, understood.  But if you don't like it, don't run it. :-)
00:37 < Bradipo> Or ask them to fix it.
00:37 < oldlaptop> anelli: If you're talking about chromium, what would you even want to use "regulation" to do? Force it to fork? The fundamental issue driving the consolidation is that the modern web is too insanely complex.
00:38 < anelli> no not regulation
00:38 < anelli> sorry not on chromium
00:38 < anelli> on government and "essential" website developers
00:38 < oldlaptop> That's not driven by one or a handful of big entities you could boss around, it's driven by a whole industry full of silly people.
00:38 < anelli> to make stuff more accessible
00:38 < Bradipo> Well, if we start regulating it, it will cease to be insanely complex, as the great equalizer of force necessarily demands simpler interfaces.
00:39 < anelli> oldlaptop: true. it's better than not doing it though
00:39 < anelli> like "don't use hydrogenated oils in food please"
00:39 < oldlaptop> (This is already too close to politics, I suppose, but that's very much a contestable question.)
00:40 < anelli> yeah lol ig we're trailing offtopic
00:40 < Bradipo> As Solzhenitsyn famously said, "Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free."
00:40 < Bradipo> But sure, we're definitely straying off-topic.  It's a Friday night...
00:40 < anelli> but yeah back to wat i was saying. blink marketshare is big so i try to use non-blink browsers so things don't get too stale
00:40 < oldlaptop> It's a (potentially) interesting conversation that belongs Elsewhere (TM).
00:41 < anelli> true
00:41 < Bradipo> I don't know what blink marketshare is even.
00:41 < anelli> but this is related to openbsd. we need some gecko forks lol
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00:42 < oldlaptop> Bradipo: Everything except Firefox, Safari, and whatever "web browsers" run on iPhones/iPads (because Apple does not permit any real web browser other than its own on those devices).
00:42 < anelli> Bradipo: here it's 75.69% blink https://gs.statcounter.com/browser-market-share/
00:42 < Bradipo> I prefer Firefox over Chrome typically, for various and sundry reasons.
00:42 < oldlaptop> That's less than I would have guessed (well in excess of 80% total, and in excess of 90% on "desktop").
00:42 < oldlaptop> Bradipo: It sure does build faster.
00:43 < Bradipo> Firefox builds faster than Chromium?
00:43 < oldlaptop> Seamonkey builds faster and it's also a mailer and a goofy WYSIWYG HTML editor.
00:43 < anelli> Bradipo: saaame i just don't like vanilla firefox with the cool "features" like ai intergration (don't ctrl+alt+x :(
00:43 < oldlaptop> mischief's observation above matches my experience
00:44 < Bradipo> Ok, I don't often build Firefox or Chromium from source on OpenBSD (or elsewhere for that matter).
00:44 < oldlaptop> the difference is some significant integer multiple
00:49 < mischief> here's the raw stats for whatever period of history i have on this box http://0x0.st/8Vd6.txt
00:49 < AlaskanEmily> I build firefox from source on OpenBSD pretty often. I usually have a locally build version of rustc just for it.
00:50 < ssm_> vortexx: 0%
00:50 < mischief> the outliers for firefox are likely due to concurrently building other things.
00:50 < AlaskanEmily> ...because one of my two work machines runs OpenBSD. And I work on Firefox as my job.
00:50 < ssm_> still just reading a bunch of source files mostly
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00:54 < mischief> sigh
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00:55 < mischief> i'm trying to test something in a vm i just brought up and wrote 'inet 192.168.40.0 netmask 255.255.255.0' in /etc/hostname.vio1 which gives me 'netmask: bad value' from netstart, but that works fine for ifconfig. what am i doing wrong?
00:56 < Bradipo> Why not just "inet 192.168.40.0/24" ?
00:57 < Bradipo> I don't think the netmask keyword is recognized in hostname.if
00:57 < mischief> somehow i thought the contents were passed to ifconfig verbatim as arguments, but okay
00:57 < Bradipo> Well, it does if...
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00:57 < Bradipo> "Any lines not matching these packed formats are passed directly to ifconfig(8)."
00:58 < Bradipo> So it should pass it do ifconfig if the "packed format" parser fails I guess?
00:58 < mischief> what manual is that
00:58 < Bradipo> hostname.if(5)
00:59 < Bradipo> The word "netmask" doesn't seem to fit the "packed format".
01:00 < oldlaptop> ISTR that manual also specifically states the parser for the "packed format" is kind of stupid.
01:00 < Bradipo> But it doesn't know about magic words.
01:00 < oldlaptop> (Maybe not those precise words.)
01:00 < Bradipo> Yes, it does.
01:00 < mischief> derp. okay
01:00 < Bradipo> "The packed formats are converted using a somewhat inflexible parser and the administrator should not expect magic"
01:01 < Bradipo> Most likely you don't have enough arguments that cause the parser to pass and move on to ifconfig.
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01:02 < mischief> now to find out if miniupnpd can work with double nat
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06:00 < fan> hello
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06:02 < fan> I solved the problem a little bit with size screen
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06:05 < fan> In BIOS I disabled power PCI for GPU
06:06 < fan> I reconnected the cable to the motherboard
06:08 < fan> Now I have got size screen 1920x1080
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06:15 < fan> Thank you all for your attention and help
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06:44 < ssm_> I used grep to cheat at ddb hangman, what is my punishment
06:46 < ssm_> how the heck was I going to guess the symbol "carp_ether_purgemulti"
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07:22 < Posterdati> hi
07:22 < IcePic> ssm_: you are supposed to look more at kernel code to learn symbols better!
07:24 < IcePic> yang3: does it eat so much memory that it swaps?
07:24 < IcePic> yang3: also, we (as in you ;) need to plan for doing unofficial 7.7 pkgs soon
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08:54 < debugbsd> Hi, good morning!
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11:17 < yang3> IcePic yes, it seems to be swapping, because it has little memory (only 1 GB) Memory: Real: 395M/773M act/tot Free: 230M Cache: 200M Swap: 71M/1280M  https://paste.debian.net/plainh/72927ceb
11:17 < yang3> IcePic we can plan for the upgrade
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12:42 < vortexx> mischief: I usually use hexadecimal for the netmask in hostname.if and I do add the broadcast address too (in dotted quad)
12:42 < vortexx> ssm_: sounds like it's going to take a while, good luck
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13:18 < fan> my happiness was short-lived
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13:20 < fan> If I go online through Firefox, after some time the operating system freezes.
13:22 < fan> It turns out that the integrated graphics from Intel also work poorly
13:25 < vortexx> fan: you probably need to up the limits in /etc/login.conf quite considerably
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13:42 < fan> my Xorg.log with Intel
13:42 < fan> termbin.com/65t98
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13:50 < vortexx> fan: https://www.c0ffee.net/blog/openbsd-on-a-laptop/#initial-configuration this is *old* but gives pointers on what to ajust to improve desktop performance. You probably need to increase the values somewhat as they've gone up over the years
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13:59 < xse> ( note that this specific page iirc confuses the staff group and the staff login class )
14:00 < vortexx> third party docs, use with caution as always
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14:58 < Foxy_> OpenBSD 7.7 The mirrors are starting to fill up. https://openbsd.as250.net/pub/OpenBSD/7.7/
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15:28 < mischief> Posterdati: it seems your wish has come true
15:30 < yang3> I am being told by the lxqt developer, that llvm is not a required dependancy for building lxqt, as it might take forever to build...can this be removed in the future releases ?
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15:42 < avemestr> xse: Yes, there's a good comment on those limits at this reddit thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/openbsd/comments/exm01m/how_to_calculate_shared_memory_limits_and/
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15:46 < mischief> mercifully, that was uneventful. hello 7.7 :-)
15:46 < mischief> unfortunately, dhcp6leased is still broken.
15:49 < vortexx> restored the VM that corrupted, thank you duplicity
15:51 < vortexx> now to try that large transfer over ppp :P
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16:06 < vortexx> and it crashed again, damn it: panic: mtx 0xffff800000046018: locking against myself
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16:14 < avemestr> The official date seems to be April 28.
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16:28 < Posterdati> :)
16:28 < Posterdati> is
16:28 < Posterdati> it
16:28 < Posterdati> out
16:28 < Posterdati> ?
16:29 < IcePic> Posterdati: its out when misc@ post from deraadt says its released
16:30 < Posterdati> alleluja!
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16:31 < Posterdati> mmmh arm64 sysupgrade not working yet!
16:31 < Posterdati> ok
16:31 < Posterdati> we will wait
16:33 < tux0r> there's always some possibility that the releases are broken
16:33 < tux0r> even if they're "on the cdn"
16:34 < tux0r> this isn't a race, you don't need to be the first person to install the new release :)
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16:35 < Posterdati> I need to install it as soon as possible
16:36 < tux0r> why?
16:36 < Posterdati> I need it
16:36 < Posterdati> for my ego
16:36 < sonne> i feel a similar urge when the release comes with a song but this isn't the case unfortunately
16:36 < tux0r> oh dear. *sigh*
16:36  * tux0r leaves this conversation gracefully
16:37 < mischief> so just do it
16:37 < Posterdati> does 7.6 come out with a song too?
16:37 < mischief> i already upgraded myself
16:37 < sonne> Posterdati: last song was 7.3 
16:37 < Posterdati> ah ok
16:37 < mischief> fugu$ uname -sr
16:37 < mischief> OpenBSD 7.7
16:38 < Posterdati> that's because most of the singers were out of tune
16:39 < Posterdati> fuguita?
16:41 < mischief> no, that's my computer's hostname.
16:42 < Posterdati> cdn?
16:42 < Posterdati> cloudflare?
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16:51 < vortexx> Posterdati: man release, you can build your own
16:52 < vortexx> # uname -r 
16:52 < vortexx> 7.7
16:53 < Posterdati> builder!
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17:06 < Posterdati> recently I'm testing OpenVMS
17:06 < Posterdati> 9.2
17:07 < Posterdati> a died and dryed dynosaur
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18:01 < fan> I found that the systems stops working after opening a site with a video
18:02 < fan> In firefox I set va-api false
18:03 < fan> but it not help :(
18:06 < fan> what yet can I make?
18:07 < mischief> all the things!
18:13 < Posterdati> machdep?
18:13 < fan> My frends has Thinkpad ax with Intel XE
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18:13 < Posterdati> sysctl hw.machdep
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18:14 < fan> Posterdati: machdep.allowaperture=1
18:17 < Posterdati> try 2 or 3
18:17 < Posterdati> did you syspatch?
18:17 < Posterdati> fw_update?
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18:18 < fan> fw_update: add none; update none; keep intel,inteldrm,vmm
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18:21 < fan> Posterdati: I try 1 and 2 
18:21 < avemestr> fan: Did you read the blog about increasing the resources in login.conf?
18:21 < fan> not help
18:22 < avemestr> fan: What do your login.conf look like? And are your user in an appropriate class?
18:23 < Posterdati> mmh
18:23 < Posterdati> anything in dmesg?
18:23 < Posterdati> in /var/log/messages  ?
18:25 < vortexx> https://flak.tedunangst.com/post/vivibook-14 tedu seems to not know the 2 rules of preparing to install OpenBSD: 1 turn off secure boot 2. turn off Intel RapidStorage / VMD / whatever is the latest retardness for storage on laptops
18:26 < fan> avemestr: I sittings /xorg.conf.d
18:26 < fan> login.conf do not settings
18:27 < fan> I do not uderstand what settings
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18:38 < fan> avemestr: 
18:38 < fan> staff:\
18:38 < fan>   :datasize-cur=1024M:\
18:38 < fan>   :datasize-max=8192M:\
18:38 < fan>   :maxproc-cur=512:\
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18:38 < fan>   :maxproc-max=1024:\
18:38 < fan>   :openfiles-cur=4096:\
18:38 < fan>   :openfiles-max=8192:\
18:38 < fan>   :stacksize-cur=32M:\
18:38 < fan>   :ignorenologin:\
18:38 < fan>   :requirehome@:\
18:38 < fan>   :tc=default:
18:38 < zelest> pastebin?
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18:39 < fan> avemestr: Are these changes safe?
18:40 < avemestr> fan: Read the first comment on this post: https://www.reddit.com/r/openbsd/comments/exm01m/how_to_calculate_shared_memory_limits_and/ 
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18:41 < avemestr> E.g. your datasize-cur is lower than default nowdays..
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22:09 < oldlaptop> yang3: I wouldn't expect lxqt upstream to consider llvm a "dependency", and indeed I'm not seeing *direct* dependencies on it in the lxqt ports (https://cvsweb.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/ports/x11/lxqt/).
22:10 < oldlaptop> More likely, *some* port *somewhere* in the dependency chain is set up to be compiled with clang from ports - which means the llvm port needs to be built first.
22:10 < yang3> yes
22:11 < yang3> is it possible to notify the OpenBSD developers to remove such dependancy?
22:11 < yang3> so that in future versions lxqt would build faster?
22:12 < oldlaptop> As a rule, they wouldn't have made that decision if it weren't necessary for that port to build properly.
22:12 < oldlaptop> (In some instances ports gcc would be a viable alternative. I don't know whether that would build faster, offhand.)
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22:13 < yang3> when pressing CTRL+C during "make" (I do this every day, when I am over 50-100 build steps) I get this output (it can continue on the next day) https://paste.debian.net/plainh/0630b734
22:15 < ssm_> yang3: usual channel for this stuff is to just mail ports@ with a diff removing the dependency and your reason for doing so
22:15 < oldlaptop> Yup, that looks like what would happen if you were to Ctrl-C a llvm build.
22:16 < ssm_> diff at the bottom so the copied mail can be directly applied with patch(1)
22:16 < sonya> yang3: if lxqt is not strict requirement - why not to try/use smth less 'heavy'.. like windowmaker, jwm or default fvwm/cwm?
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22:18 < ssm_> you can also copy the built package in .tgz form from an ftp mirror to your ports' packages directory (default /usr/ports/packages/$(machine)/all/)
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22:21  * sonya is gone for upgrade.. 3Gb for root partition - i'd increase'em to 5Gb (greed and stinginess are a sins)..
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22:27 < jfsimon> Good morning, about porting OpenBSD to embedded, i defined finally the processor to be used, which will certainly be Renesas RZ familly (Cortex A55 ARM64 1.2GHz)
22:28 < jfsimon> Early phase of development.
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22:40 < vortexx> 3G for / ? I do wonder why, large /root ?
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22:41 < vortexx> at least with the usual layout (and maybe minus /usr/src & obj)
22:53 < vortexx> jfsimon: good luck
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22:59 < vortexx> ssm_: not sure ftp mirrors are still in use, it's mostly https by now not that it changes anything much as it's still the same hosting places
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23:00 < vortexx> ftp(1) growing http/https capabilities was a major jump in effectiveness
23:02 < fan> My game with settingses is over
23:02 < fan> I have got full panic kernel
23:03 < fan> I reinstall openbsd
23:04 < fan> Now I have Fvwm + firefox = working
23:05 < fan> sysctl.conf do not created 
23:05 < vortexx> fan: which desk env were you using when you were having freezing issues?
23:06 < fan> in xorg.conf.d I do not create file with settingses
23:06 < fan> too
23:07 < fan> xfce4+firefox = do not work
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23:15 < fan> vortexx: thank you for the help
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23:22 < vortexx> fan: you're welcome
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23:34 < metalforever> hi everyone, i am wondering what you use as your IDE. having a bit of trouble finding software that works in openbsd . I am looking for something that is point and click, not vim or emacs
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23:50 < ssm_> vortexx: all the ftp mirrors I've tested on https://openbsd.org/ftp.html still work
23:50 -!- nodelay [~zack@user/nodelay] has joined #openbsd
23:51 < ssm_> I used one today to grab a riscv64 kerenel since I broke my obsd and bsd kernels :D
23:52 -!- tozhu [~tozhu@218.89.234.77] has joined #openbsd
23:53 -!- sirphat0n [~sp@user/sirphat0n] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
23:54 -!- sirphat0n [~sp@user/sirphat0n] has joined #openbsd
23:55 -!- nodelay [~zack@user/nodelay] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
23:55 < metalforever> how did you do that
23:55 < emmanuelux_> metalforever,  vscode with sshfs
--- Log closed Sun Apr 27 00:00:38 2025