--- Log opened Sun Apr 27 00:00:38 2025
--- Day changed Sun Apr 27 2025
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00:00 < anelli> metalforever: there's vi/vim/neovim if you haven't given em a try. try them in this order :b there's also mg/emacs
00:01 < anelli> i use vi. but yeah otherwise search the packages with pkg_info -Q
00:01 < anelli> i think there's an online search thing too
00:01 < quinq> Not really IDEs though
00:01 < anelli> yeah my bad
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00:02 < anelli> peaple like geany
00:02 < anelli> metalforever: here's a list of the dev tools https://ports.to/cat/devel.html
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00:06 < metalforever> @emmanuelux_ how do you get vscode working in openbsd if its electron
00:06 < metalforever> emannualux_
00:06 < metalforever> anelli : thanks, will give it a try
00:06 < metalforever> the problem with geany is that the side is cut off
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00:07 < anelli> metalforever: hav fun :)
00:07 < metalforever> this is what i mean about geany : https://imgur.com/a/w3IeTCH
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00:09 < vortexx> ssm_: oh that's good to know! not surprising you broke your system again, part of the process I guess :)
00:09 < anelli> metalforever: hm wat about kdevelop
00:10 < metalforever> how do you break it;
00:10 < metalforever> kdevelop : i didnt even know this exist. 
00:10 < metalforever> i mean it looks nice. i will try it.
00:10 < anelli> metalforever: idk. there might be a geany channel
00:10 < metalforever> it looks like it has autocomplete
00:10 < anelli> also gl
00:11 < metalforever> thank you
00:12 < ssm_> vortexx: the system is already broken, it can't be broken further
00:12 < quinq> anelli, not that I think it's a bad idea :D
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00:12 < ssm_> but I have broken it further, compiling with option DEBUG won't boot which is definitely something
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00:15 < anelli> quinq: ye :b
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00:23 < metalforever> kdevelop crashes with weird llvm error :(
00:23 < anelli> aw
00:25 < emmanuelux_> metalforever, remote vscode with sshfs
00:26 < metalforever> ah. yeah i see. this would probably work.
00:27 < metalforever> weird problem to have in OS whose likely user is a programmer
00:27 < metalforever> its a big project though
00:28 < metalforever> but its just me being kinda bummed about intellij. truthfully i am looking to get off of using jetbrains any way
00:29 < emmanuelux_> i use copilot in vscode, it is amazing 
00:29 < emmanuelux_> even it is confused between linux and openbsd for now
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00:30 < vortexx> metalforever: more likely to be sysadmins or netadmins than programmers, judging on who's in here
00:30 < metalforever> i am not sure how someone working in a large codebase can get a lot done in vim but i guess i am a nub
00:31 < metalforever> i mean i guess but dont you need to know both
00:31 < metalforever> maybe not.
00:33 < emmanuelux_> you program a firewall gui for openbsd ?
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03:45 < rnkn> metalforever I think acme sam is mouse-based: https://openports.pl/path/plan9/sam
03:47 < vortexx> rnkn: that person isn't in the channel atm
03:49 < rnkn> oh well
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04:03 < johnjaye> metala: having a large community of people is a huge asset
04:04 < johnjaye> so even if say it was just starting as notepad.exe it would get a bunch of people working on it and making plugins and soon you'd have SuperNotePadOneMillion with a bunch of different plugins and features
04:06 < vortexx> metalforever isn't in the channel atm
04:07 < vortexx> but we're maybe 25 really active people in here with 100 occasionals
04:07 < vortexx> plus hundreds of lurkers/bots
04:08 < sonne> got curious about the conversation and checked - i wonder how the guy didn't stumble on vscodium, it seems it runs on openbsd
04:08 < sonne> sure you have to build it yourself but that shouldn't be scary :)
04:09 < vortexx> did state he was a noob so probably hadn't discovered that
04:09 < ssm_> doesn't vscodium require electron?
04:09 < sonne> ssm_: it does
04:09 < ssm_> well that's why it's not ported then, unless electron's ported now
04:09 < sonne> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
04:09 < anelli> i think some team is working on electron but forgor
04:09 < sonne> https://ipv6.rs/tutorial/OpenBSD/VSCodium/ first startpage result for openbsd vscodium
04:10 < sonne> maybe it's ai slop
04:10 < anelli> ipv6 is very bad
04:10 < anelli> ipv6.rs i mean
04:10 < seninha> (on my pondering of yesterday) I decided for installing obsd using full-disk encryption on a SSD. Am dd'ing it with /dev/urandom first.
04:11 < anelli> oh i have dding the whole disk it takes ages
04:11 < vortexx> seninha: it worked out I'm sure?
04:11 < anelli> is it to make old data irrecoverable?
04:11 < seninha> vortexx, Yes, but I ^C after the first 70GB...
04:12 < vortexx> good enough
04:12 < seninha> anelli, exactly.
04:12 < anelli> seninha: fairs
04:12 < seninha> My worries was about exhausting the SSD with writes and the disk die.
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04:13 < seninha> And getting into an inconsistent and potentially unrecoverable state after a poweroff
04:13 < seninha> unmounted poweroff*
04:13 < vortexx> I've yet to kill an SSD from overwrites
04:13 < sonne> seninha: hot take: unless you are hiding from a gov or some other cash loaded entity, erasing the disk is useless beyond the first few kilobytes
04:14 < anelli> can't be too paranoid :b
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04:14 < sonne> anelli: sure but you need to do threat modeling
04:14 < anelli> truth
04:15 < ssm_> ssd I've been torturing since nearly a decade ago still has 95% of its writes
04:15 < sonne> also i suspect urandom is overkill.. /dev/zero should be good enough and save (statistically) half of the writes
04:15 < ssm_> "torturing" being somewhat regular large dpb builds
04:16 < sonne> on magnetic disks it used to be that one could detect the "freshness" of the zero and reconstruct the data after zeroing, but that shouldn't be possible with ssds
04:17 < anelli> or just don't zero it and use it a lot :b will naturally overwrite 
04:17 < sonne> yeah that's what i was suggesting :D
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04:23 < seninha> ssm_, how do you check the % of writes?
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04:25 < anelli> ++
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04:43 < ssm_> smartctl from smartmontools
04:43 < ssm_> you don't need to use the daemon
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04:47 < vortexx> shame atactl(8) can't handle it
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04:49 < ssm_> don't let your dreams be uncompleted diffs
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04:49 < anelli> cool th
04:49 < anelli> thx*
04:50 < vortexx> ssm_: indeed
04:50 < vortexx> or base be a religion
04:51 < vortexx> even if it's a pretty decent creed
04:51 < anelli> in base we trust
04:52 < vortexx> amen
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04:58 < vortexx> cvs -d anoncvs@ftp.fr.openbsd.org:/cvs -q up -P -r OPENBSD_7_7_BASE src  <-- running this on src I downloaded over 2 if not 3 weeks ago to make OPENBSD_7_7_BASE, curious to see if OpenSSH will get bumped to 10.0
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05:00 < vortexx> (I don't have empirical data on this but usually OPENBSD_7_7_BASE is set in stone
05:00 < vortexx> )
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05:13 < vortexx> https://paste.debian.net/1371841/ quite the update
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05:29 < seninha> ssm_, thanks :)
05:30 < seninha> vortexx, base made me feel uncomfortable on a generic linux distro's default installation
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05:31 < seninha> imagine having to install ssh
05:31 < seninha> or vi
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05:34 < anelli> real
05:35 < anelli> running random third-party stuff with root is weirdest
05:35 < anelli> anything that needs root is in base i think
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05:42 < mischief> i doubt anyone is interested, but i put amd64 7.7 sets on ipfs https://bafybeic6sztoqhch5ydqgmymn36gg7b23soqfugvgyddkycqbmi4qil5di.ipfs.dweb.link/pub/OpenBSD/7.7/amd64/
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05:59 < Posterdati> :(
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07:05 < ssm_> <or vi> or worse, you want nvi, but it's invoked through nvi instead of vi, and vi is assigned to vim
07:05 < ssm_> seninha: 
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07:06 < ssm_> you can get around it with an alias or PATH but grr its the wrong way around grr
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07:32 < fan> hello
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07:34 < fan> tell me please. how see list all groups users?  
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07:37 < mischief> man 5 group
07:37 < ssm_> /etc/passwd for users
07:39 < ssm_> oh wait I misread, mischief's is more relevant
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08:09 < fan> mischief: cat /etc/group
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09:13 < Posterdati> sysupgrade: Error retrieving https://cdn.openbsd.org/pub/OpenBSD//7.7/amd64/SHA256.sig: 404 Not Found
09:13 < renaud> it's not yet on cdn
09:13 < renaud> use ftp.fr or ft.eu
09:13 < Posterdati> sysupgrade is not a friend! 
09:14 < Posterdati> I would bet cdn is the most up to date repository!
09:17 < renaud> last releasess it was on cdn very early, but this time not. We can't complain, it's not officially released
09:17 < Posterdati> yes
09:17 < Posterdati> that's why I always use cdn
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09:37 < mischief> hey, it's on ipfs ;)
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10:25 < ivdsangen> is there a better way to remove a user from a group, instead of setting all the other groups the user currently is a member of using usermod -S? i do not want to edit /etc/group
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10:33 < quinq> ivdsangen, I don't think so, but is it a problem?
10:34 < ivdsangen> not really, but i think it could be easier from a user perspective to be able to without specifying all the other groups
10:37 < quinq> Yeah, like a counterpart to append
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10:55 < sonya> several failures with REVISION BUMP, utox is no more, but the rest (of 7.7) seems fine.. 
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11:43 < Posterdati> hi
11:43 < Posterdati> what is revision bump?
11:43 < Posterdati> 7.5 to 7.7?
11:46 < sonya> no.. it's when you have a PACKAGE-$VERSION in 7.6 and the same sources for a package in 7.7, but it'd be PACKAGE-$VERSION-$REVISION .. numbers should be 'bigger' for a seamless upgrade without warning..
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11:59 < Posterdati> sonya: that's prevent the single package upgrade when passing to a new releasE?
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12:09 < quinq> n/20
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12:12 < Feigr> I am trying to move the ~/.Xauthority file to a different location using the XAUTHORITY environment variable, but I am not having much luck. I am using xenodm and have put in xsession an XAUTHORITY declaration with a path. But xenodm will not let me in, the login screen just resets
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12:22 < ivdsangen> are there any errors in ~/.xsession-errors?
12:28 < sonya> Posterdati: that throws a warning during # pkg_add -u .. but package(s) are upgraded anyway.. when [ $new_version_revision -ge $old_version_revision ] ..
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12:32 < Feigr> ivdsangen: "Authorization required, but no authorization protocol specified" followed by "dwm: cannot open display"
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12:41 < quinq> Maybe try without dwm first, with an xterm window
12:42 < quinq> Though the error seems to be from before executing
12:42 < Posterdati> sonya, ok
12:42 < Feigr> quinq: nah it's the same behaviour if I comment out exec dwm
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12:45 < quinq> ye
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12:58 < IcePic> ipv6.rs was weird, they have tons of openbsd tutorials for many different things, but it seems taken from some other OS, like this example (which lacks a V) https://ipv6.rs/tutorial/OpenBSD/irtualBox/
13:00 < IcePic> I'm rather cetain obsd never had a kmod package for virtualbox
13:00 < IcePic> fbsd did though
13:00 < IcePic> did/does
13:01 < quinq> IcePic, maybe LLM hallucination
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13:07 < sibiria> they're a bit fishy, ipv6.rs. no real information about the company
13:08 < sonya> Feigr: i'm in doubt that you cat do smth like XAUTHORITY="cat /home/user/.Xauthority".. may be this could help: $ ln -sf /home/user/.Xauthority ~/   (and remove ~/.Xauthority on logoff) .. but soft like vi/vim works anyway.. 
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13:08 < sonya> s/cat\ do/can\ do/^
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13:13 < sonya> Feigr: at least $ man xauth
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13:37 < d-ra> upgrade to 7.7 on my six openbsd machines without any issues. works fine. thanks to all.
13:37 < quinq> but but, it's not released yet
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13:39 < d-ra> :-)
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13:40 < quinq> Then I'm upgrading too :p
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13:48 < Posterdati> is
13:48 < Posterdati> it
13:48 < Posterdati> out?
13:48 < Posterdati> :)
13:51 < quinq> Posterdati, if you have early access from your patreon subscription
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14:17 < Posterdati> quinq: I use patreon only for porn sites!
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14:22 < Melon> thats the only way to "roll"
14:22 < Posterdati> exactly
14:22 < Melon> i use emacs for pron
14:22 < Posterdati> no matter the OpenBSD release
14:22 < avemestr> Posterdati: Check your privmsg...
14:23 < Melon> has a "special tpouch to it"
14:23 < Melon> almost like vr
14:24 < Posterdati> avemestr: thanks! You were very kind! :)
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14:26 < Melon> im pretty certain im gonna try openbsd. ive dabbled with freebsd abit, i like eggdrops, so basically id be hosting my own bot (chuckles) but i would be getting used to openbsd as well. im more for security than anything and i like openbsd's approach
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14:34 < quinq> Hummm, when upgrading ports
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14:34 < quinq> How can I see the port software default config, in order to compare with the currently installed one?
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14:53 < Posterdati> I was reading about the reasons that forced De Raadt to found OpenBSD. It is an amazing story! I was wondering on the force of that man... He believes in what he does and he is right!
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14:59 < Posterdati> OpenBSD is always improving, I musta say I use it for network administration and development: clean and easy to use!!
15:01 < Posterdati> no strange things like wayland nor systemd
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15:13 < Foxy_> Posterdati: Wayland is supported on OpenBSD ;)
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15:15 < quinq> That statemend needs proof
15:15 < quinq> t
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15:31 < avemestr> Very low values of "supported"...
15:34 < avemestr> Melon: FreeBSD have three things that OpenBSD doesn't: ZFS, Linux Binary compatibility, better virtualization offers. For everything else (incl. desktop/laptop usage), I've found OpenBSD much more pleasurable to work with.
15:34 < IcePic> avemestr: what do one need linux compat for these days?
15:35 < anelli> games :b
15:35 < anelli> i think that's all
15:35 < avemestr> IcePic: Dunno, I don't need ZFS or virtualization either.
15:38 < sibiria> last i needed/wanted linux compat was when running F@H. it was pretty handy. but with vmm/vmd available these days...
15:38 < avemestr> IcePic: So it was just my list of "major features" that differentiate the two BSDs. There's 1000s smaller differences, I know.
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15:50 < IcePic> avemestr: I mean, in the old days, you needed/wanted linux compat to run Netscape or something
15:51 < IcePic> its just that I don't see a lot of that anymore, which would make it an important feature in 2025
15:51 < sonya> avemestr: zfs and linux bin compat are more like.. you know, if bug is found 3 times (or more) it became a feature.. i've enough with zfs..
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15:52 < IcePic> I would love zfs on obsd too, but I don't want devs to skip checking licences
15:54 < sonya> well.. zfs could be nice until it breaks..
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15:55 < sibiria> which it unfortunately does under certain circumstances, where non-zfs just keeps ticking
15:55 < sonya> and it's resource requirements are too high for daily usage, imho..
15:55 < sibiria> but it would certainly be an improvement over olde ffs
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15:56 < sonya> non-zfs with fsck is a blessing..
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15:57 < Posterdati> Foxy_: a nasty experiment :)
15:58 < sibiria> had a reminder about zfs' finicky nature just recently. backup machine at work running latest debian, with two SMR drives in it in a RAID1 mirror. used to be linux mdraid (softraid equivalent) that worked perfectly fine even when SMR kicked in and took write speeds down to 25 mb/sec
15:58 < sibiria> switched to zfs with defaults, which kept timing out and even crashing the kernel when doing its block shuffling thing every now and then
15:58 < Posterdati> avemestr: is zfs memory consuming?
15:59 < Foxy_> Posterdati: yes, a lot
15:59 < sibiria> was a sad realization that zfs had to be TUNED in order to "Just Work" on a pair of SMR drives
15:59 < sonya> Posterdati: zfs is not only memory, but overall quite resource hungry beast..
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16:00 < Posterdati> sonya: leave it alone ;)
16:00 < Foxy_> but ZFS is a very good FS: RAID-Z, snapshots, send/recv...
16:01 < Posterdati> Foxy_: at the cost of a kidney
16:01 < ssm_> raidz->softraid snapshots->(regular backups through cron (better imo)) pools->(real partitions)
16:01 < ssm_> dang that's all the usecases
16:02 < sonya> (IT Mastery) Michael  W. Lucas - OpenBSD Mastery_ Filesystems-Tilted Windmill Press (2023) .. could be a nice reading before sleep..
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16:06 < Posterdati> lol -> https://github.com/tapioco71/the-openbsd-c-particularist
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16:07 < seninha> I want to write and send a patch to tech& of a man(doc)page for default system groups, like netbsd's https://man.netbsd.org/groups.7
16:08 < seninha> We already have information on system groups like operator, _shutdown, wobj, but it's scattered through specific manpages.
16:08 < seninha> (same for default system users)
16:10 < seninha> There's also a “staff” (not the login class, a group) and “guest” groups that have no mention on the manuals.
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16:11 < seninha> NetBSD mention them at that very manual, tho.
16:11 < avemestr> sibiria: Is the price difference really worth the hassle of SMR drives..?
16:12 < seninha> Do you think that's worthy merging inton /src?
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16:12 < seninha> s/inton/into/
16:12 < avemestr> Even in non-ZFS but just ordinary RAID setups I could imagine the checksumming being a pain on SMR..
16:13 < yang3> Posterdati where were you reading about OpenBSD founding ?
16:14 < ssm_> seninha: I like it, though is there a default users manpage? that seems maybe more important. man7 is lonely :(
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16:15 < Posterdati> yang3: wikipedia
16:17 < sibiria> avemestr: they were chosen because they had longer warranty and were not fronted by a flash memory cache. plain no-nonsense drives with fewer components, simply. i don't think the price difference is much to talk about, most manufacturers raised price of SMR drives anyway since they realized they usually can ge away with it
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16:18 < sibiria> now they are no longer SMR, CMR, HMR, but "home", "office", "surveillance", "enterprise", and similar weasel word bullshit
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16:23 < sibiria> avemestr: SMR reads at normal speed. it just writes slowly on occasion. checksumming is an example that won't be affected
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16:27 < xse> seninha: i'm curious about 'bin' ? it's in rdist(1) "If groupname is not specified, the bin group is used." and was also discussed there recently https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=174282281914310
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16:53 < renaud> take care, kdig (from knot) doesn't work with DoQ on 7.7
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17:23 < seninha> ssm_, There's one for netbsd: https://man.netbsd.org/users.7
17:25 < seninha> xse, bin is one i still am not sure of the actual usage; netbsd's counterpart is kept for historical purposes. Writing those manuals would require archeological study of mailing lists and code from early unixes and openbsd releases...
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17:48 < vortexx> the one reason I'd have for linux compat would be discord which I use a lot. But that presumably could run in a VM & be exported via ssh -Y
17:50 < sibiria> discord web offers pretty much everything important from the stand-alone application, doesn't it?
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17:50 < sibiria> e.g. video/audio capture and streaming
17:50 < anelli> more secure too
17:50 < quinq> If there's a web interface, the linux client is also a web thingy, isn't it?
17:51 < anelli> can't lookup your processes and know ur gaming habits >:(
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17:51 < anelli> vortexx: i got a solution for ya
17:51 < anelli> vortexx: #rdircd
17:51 < anelli> works flawlessly. you can chat up your discord friend from discord
17:51 < anelli> lol i meant
17:52 < anelli> chat up your discord friends from irc
17:52 < sibiria> quinq: i don't know if it's built on for example Electron. but it does stuff like snoop on running processes etc.
17:52 < sibiria> also has immediate access to video/audio sources and more
17:53 < anelli> i haven't openend the discord client in like a month and i'm keeping touch with friends. audio/video/etc is another problem tho but ig i can just make my friends use mumble/jitsi/etc
17:53 < quinq> Change friends
17:53 < anelli> that works too
17:53 < anelli> but nah they're my special oomfies
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17:54 < anelli> i'll move them to irc someday
17:54 < quinq> Alternative is affective blackmailing
17:54 < anelli> lmaoo
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18:00 < vortexx> anelli: I need screen sharing and voice chat, I doubt your irc bridge will handle that
18:00 < vortexx> thanks anyway
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18:03 < sibiria> but the web-based discord will
18:10 < seninha> anelli, nice; noted it
18:10 < seninha> i also use telegram from irc
18:10 < seninha> except for the video calls, which requires me to use the web interface
18:11 < seninha> Last time i used telegram-desktop from ports webrtc for video call was not working
18:11 < anelli> vortexx: yah it wont. np
18:11 < Posterdati> behold! 7.7 upgraded from 7.6 on raspberry pi 3b+ (petrol)
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18:17 < anelli> seninha: i feel the fact typical social media doing everything is making lock-in worse
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18:18 < seninha> anelli, yep
18:18 < seninha> I gave up on free projects using discord as mailing list.
18:18 < Posterdati> annoucement!!!!!
18:18 < Posterdati> 28/04/2025
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18:19 < anelli> seninha: yeah i don't want my screen filled with animated pfp sound effects while i'm tryna troubleshoot stiff xD
18:19 < anelli> stuff*
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18:23  * sonya noticed colored msgs from cc.. hmm..
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18:30 < Posterdati> cc = colored compiler
18:30 < quinq> Try mcc
18:32 < Posterdati> mcc = more colored compiler
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18:34 < quinq> jaja ^^
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18:41 < Posterdati> mmh the artwork seems a little sad
18:41 < Posterdati> life of a fish
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18:42 < Posterdati> thanks developers for your hard work!
18:43 < tux0r> ooh. new stuff to kill my mail server with!
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18:50 < Posterdati> syncing disk...
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19:10 < prahou> happy birthday
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19:20 < thrig> there is a color forth...
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19:22 < Posterdati> back and forth
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19:28 < metavoid> OpenBSD 7.7 Released https://undeadly.org/cgi?action=article;sid=20250427183032
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20:17 < anthk_> updateing
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20:18 < anthk_> thrig:  ." good work "
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20:21 < linetrace> prahou: thanks for the wonderful 7.7 artwork!
20:21 < prahou> thank you! it was an honor
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20:22 < anthk_> prahou: it reminds me of old mangas
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20:32 < tux0r> new 7.7 works like a charm, thanks everyone involved
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20:38 < anthk_> graphicsmagick's deps are huge
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20:46 < ssm_> upgrade was entirely uneventful, as per usual
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20:48 < tux0r> at least there was a file deletion involved again
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20:53 < vortexx> don't forget pkg_delete -a & sysclean
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20:54 < anthk_> pkg_check;pkg_delete -a
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20:55 < zelest> as always, the only friction when upgrading is when postgres bumps major
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21:04 < tux0r> there are reasons why my postgres runs on solaris
21:05 < quinq> Yeah, I stopped the running postgres
21:05 < quinq> Then read the update readme
21:05 < quinq> Where they said to dump first
21:06 < zelest> I'm lazy and use the pg_upgrade.. dead easy :)
21:08 < quinq> nice
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21:16 < tux0r> when i was new to postgres, i failed to understand that you need the OLD version to migrate to the NEW version
21:16 < tux0r> pg_dump is *always* the safest way IMO
21:16 < anthk_> tux0r: software it's broken
21:16 < tux0r> well, it makes *some* sense
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21:18 < quinq> Hummm, syscheck tells me things in dev like /dev/mixer should be gone
21:18 < quinq> Can I trust that?
21:18 < quinq> Or /dev/drm0
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21:20 < quinq> Oh yeah, gone since 6.9.
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21:27 < zelest> tux0r, pg_upgrade basically installs the old version along with the new one though. :)
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21:29 < tux0r> oh? i thought it needs "here's the old version" as a parameter
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21:32 < zelest> postgresql-pg_upgrade will pull postgresql-previous
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21:33 < tux0r> oh! TIL.. thanks
21:36 < markmcb> previously functional headless Xfce via VNC desktop appears broken after 7.7 upgrade. getting 'Xlib:  extension "DPMS" missing on display ":1.0"' in the VNC log.
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21:37 < zelest> check the postgres pkg_readme, it's Option 2 when it comes to upgrading. :)
21:39 < quinq> ahhh
21:44 < vortexx> pg_upgrade worked for me for 7.7
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21:44 < vortexx> it's pretty rare it doesn't
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22:27 < tommyrot> vortexx: any gains on your apu2 or has that been replaced by now?
22:27 < tommyrot> wrt throughput
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23:04 < vortexx> tommyrot: haven't upgraded that yet, going to in a bit
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23:10 < sonya> firefox in 7.6 was 137.0.2 and it failed 'upgrade' to the 137.0 of (current) 7.7 .. manual pkg_delete ; pkg_add solved the case..
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23:38 < avemestr> tux0r: Are you using Oracle Solaris or illumos or OpenIndiana or some other descendant?
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--- Log closed Mon Apr 28 00:00:01 2025