--- Log opened Fri May 30 00:00:46 2025
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00:41 < eea> i heard a rumor that vmm can haz pci passthru?!
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00:43 < eea> or have i just been living under a rock?
00:46 < vortexx> where did you hear that rumour? I haven't seen anything about that, not that I pay that much attention to vmm
00:47 < eea> teh google
00:48 < eea> since 6.1 it claimed boldly
00:48 < vortexx> https://www.reddit.com/r/openbsd/comments/ih4vns/pci_passthrough_on_vmm/ this?
00:48 < eea> likely
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01:09 < et09_> vortexx: well it's "update" and "upgrade" 
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01:10 < et09_> though yeah frankly better off following this page https://www.openbsdhandbook.com/upgrade/
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01:10 < vortexx> err that's not official guidance and has been proven wrong and dangerous more than once
01:11 < eea> oh yea, no guest SMP.support yet
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01:12 < eea> that is gonna be one heluva beast with just a few more "features"
01:12 < vortexx> for one thing under upgrade it tells you to do sysmerge third, when it's the first thing to do
01:12 < vortexx> eea: yeah no SMP support is what holds vmm back for most people, and the devs aren't interested
01:12 < vortexx> apparently the person who wrote vmm+vmd has left the project
01:13 < pardis> openbsdhandbook.com is full of wrong and outdated advice in general
01:17 < eea> vortexx: thats ok, i can hope for both of us that vmm/vmd may one day see a good chunk of openssh's success
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01:21 < vortexx> and no one seems to know who maintains openbsdhandbook.com either, which is a bit weird
01:21 < vortexx> eea: yeah we can always hope, em driver got hw accel like 8 years after the APU2 came out
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01:28 < luser9> Thinking of buying a small $80 APC UPS with a "PowerChute USB" port, will it work with my openbsd machine via USB? or only via network? or none?
01:29 < eea> that em0 driver has seen huge improvements last few years
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01:39 < luser9> Tripp Lite has a cooler name, but.. I will try this APC Back-UPS BE600M1 ($80). We will know if it works on tuesday :)
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05:37 < aonareile> Hi all...Assume you're broke but have to replace your laptop, which model would you choose?
05:37 < TommyC> Theft.
05:38 < aonareile> Probably...
05:38 < zelest> Can you replace parts of your laptop? E.g, repair it?
05:39 < zelest> Also, I would obviously vibe code a new start up to become a fortune 500 company in a month.. then I'd buy the best laptop ever. The cool bro's at X told me this is possible.
05:39 < aonareile> zelest: Technically yes but because it is quite outdated, the parts nearly cost as much as a new one...
05:41 < aonareile> I am now using a very old mini PC but guess the spec is just too crappy to run properly. It is with those Atom CPU.
05:41 < zelest> :/
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06:12 < TommyC> aonareile: What's your budget?
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06:16 < mischief> can get pre-owned thinkpads for <$100 easily
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06:44 < usagi_mimi> Yeah thinkpads are the way to go
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06:44 < usagi_mimi> I wouldn't get any of them newer than T14 gen1 though and go with the AMD models. Make sure yours has Intel wifi chipset.
06:45 < usagi_mimi> I bought a T14 Gen1 AMD a few months ago and it has been a very good laptop. There is only one or two issues with it related to firmware but they aren't deal breakers and don't really matter in daily use.
06:46 < usagi_mimi> The older ones are better of course but they don't have as modern of a CPU. But in return you get totally open sourced firmware and coreboot/libreboot.
06:46 < usagi_mimi> I think I paid $300 for the T14 I bought last year they're probably cheaper now
06:47 < usagi_mimi> Mine was basically brand new. Still had the plastic over the power button and didn't look like it was used at all. 
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06:53 < usagi_mimi> I have to say the break from the insanity that is modern Linux on my laptop has been refreshing these last several months.
06:54 < usagi_mimi> I'd been chasing and wrangling Gentoo for so long I forgot it was actually possible to maintain a sane system without spending hours every couple of weeks hacking around whatever changes had happened upstream.
06:55 < TommyC> of all the distros, why'd you pick Gentoo if you didn't want to spend hours every couple of weeks hacking around whatever changes happened upstream?
06:56 < usagi_mimi> Because it was the only distro where I could run my 90s-like era config. Everything else is either outdated or requires using systemd init.
06:57 < usagi_mimi> Even Slackware finally caved in and the various Arch forks are harder to maintain than Gentoo. Gentoo isn't that hard and would still be alright if the people that got control of the repos weren't kicking out long term stuff every week. The guy that 'maintains' OpenRC for example has refused patches for multiple years now. So you end up having to run most things from GURU
06:57 < usagi_mimi> The only real issue with Gentoo aside from the current community around it is the hard dependancy on python for portage.
07:00 < usagi_mimi> Up until about 2015 or so I had all local systems happily chugging along on Gentoo. I had a home server that compiled bins for everything else using my custom USE flags and pushing updates to all other systems. Back then they started breaking things fairly often but it was only bi-yearly at first. By 2020-2021 it became a weekly thing. 
07:02 < aonareile> TommyC: Sorry was away. $200 - $250 I guess
07:02 < TommyC> oof
07:03 < aonareile> mischief, usagi_mimi: Yeah I guess pre-owned Thinkpads would be the most solid option. Will have a look at T14
07:03 < aonareile> Thanks
07:03 < TommyC> pre-owned anything seems to be the option here :3
07:03 < aonareile> Yeah...
07:03 < TommyC> usagi_mimi: Slackware caved to what?
07:07 < usagi_mimi> Slackware held out on the systemd/everything is a fedora clone thing for years but they recently went that way too
07:08 < TommyC> Not seeing systemd in Slackware.
07:08 < usagi_mimi> aonareile: most of them on ebay are 'pre-owned' but they're just from businesses selling off old stock at they upgrade. So a lot of them were never used/barely used. They usually come with a Windows license too which you can re-sell to recoup some of the cost. Although I typically just give the keys to those away to people that want them.
07:09 < usagi_mimi> Yeah Gentoo claims "no systemd" in their OpenRC profile too. But it pulls half of it in anyway.
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07:10 < TommyC> Ok, so where's the systemd in Slackware?
07:11 < usagi_mimi> elogind
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07:17 < TommyC> that's a fork of a component... -_-
07:19 < mischief> for $200 you could easily get a decent 2018-2020 era thinkpad off ebay
07:20 < mischief> which (as a small bonus imo) would have usb-c charging
07:23 < usagi_mimi> The T14 is usb-c charging and came with a pretty nice charger but it works with all my other stuff I've tried.
07:24 < usagi_mimi> The reason not to go for any past gen1s is the fact that they removed the ethernet ports. I'm not sure if the one that requires usb-c adapater works well since I've never tried it. Be aware this require taking the case off to replace the batteries though.
07:26 < usagi_mimi> TommyC: I'm aware of what it is. That doesn't make it any less "systemd" since it forces you into the ecosystem and the code is frankly horrible. It isn't the only issue there is eudev/udev and such as well. There used to be a big effort on the Gentoo forums to not rely on that stuff and discussion was always nice and helpful. But the same group that seized control banned everyone a few years ago
07:26 < usagi_mimi> for no reason. There is no point is running something like elogind on most systems because one-user systems don't require "multiseat" in the first place.
07:27 < usagi_mimi> Nevermind there are plenty of better options like seatd if you want it. But this is probably not the best place to talk about what's happening in the Linux world. It wasn't my intention to go off on a tagnent on why things are getting bad over there as of late.
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07:36 < mischief> my newer-ish P14s has ethernet
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13:17 < seninha> Hi, do you know (and use) a GUI program for browsing openstreetmap maps, optionally caching them for offline use, on OpenBSD. No need to be in ports.
13:19 < sibiria> the only such i know of is not available on openbsd at all afaik
13:19 < sibiria> Organic Maps
13:20 < vortexx> nextcloud has a maps feature but I doubt it's anywhere near the features of google maps etc
13:20 < sibiria> there's an ongoing linux port of Organic~, with some luck it may actually build on openbsd too
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13:21 < seninha> I found this one: https://www.foxtrotgps.org/ It's in ports.
13:21 < seninha> Gonna test a few.
13:21 < seninha> sibiria, vortexx, thanks
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13:26 < oldlaptop> https://openports.pl/path/x11/kde-applications/marble has an openstreetmap layer
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13:28 < seninha> hmm, yeah i remember KDE has something for that
13:28 < seninha> but... kde...
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13:29  * oldlaptop sincerely recommends getting over that
13:32 < seninha> pkg_add's adding too many qt6-* packages @_@
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13:35  * oldlaptop wonders which way would get more complaints: "there are too many qt packages!" or "the qt-everything package is too big! I don't want qtserialport!"
13:36 < sibiria> qtserialportpdftutorialhelper.so.41.0, 52 mb
13:36 -!- jgh [~jgh@hellmouth.gulag.org.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
13:36 < oldlaptop> (for marble I think you actually do want qtserialport - some kind of GPS support)
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13:39 < seninha> The nice thing (or not, opinion based) of kde programs is that include all (or most) features a user may want.
13:40 < seninha> i'd not be impressed if okular or another KDE document reader/editor also needed qtserialport for some serial wacom tablet
13:40 < sibiria> ./configure --with-everything --all-the-crap --and-some-extras
13:40 < oldlaptop> And it's really not the program that includes the feature in many cases, it's KDE.
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13:42 < oldlaptop> all the things with embedded terminals really are just using konsole, for example
13:42 < oldlaptop> (or rather they're using the same embedded component konsole is a trivial wrapper of)
13:42 < vortexx> yw seninha 
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21:19 < Anti-Citation> Hey there new user here I'm trying to install devel/kf5/extra-cmake-modules but it says file:devel/kf5/: empty
21:19 < Anti-Citation> Can't find extra-cmake-modules
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21:20 < Anti-Citation> Do I have to install it from the ports tree?
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21:44 < oldlaptop> Anti-Citation: When installing packages, you generally ignore the categories at the beginning of a port's path, when you're looking at a source like openports.pl that shows them to you.
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21:45 < Anti-Citation> ah thanks oldlaptop
21:45 < oldlaptop> You *could* install it from ports, and if you did the obvious 'manual' way would involve cd-ing into that literal directory. There's no reason to do that, though, unless you actually want to modify that port or something.
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22:44 < vortexx> Anti-Citation: that package's name is kf6-extra-cmake-modules
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22:51 < vortexx> Anti-Citation: generally if you're unsure of a package's name, either pkg_add pkg_locatedb or go to your local mirror and check pub/OpenBSD/packages/$arch/ and search there
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22:51 < vortexx> oops, pub/OpenBSD/7.7/packages/$arch/
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23:02 < njn> -q
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23:03 < flaxarn> Hi people any Wireguard experts?
23:04 < flaxarn> Trying to get to work a traffic forward from Internet -> server -> Wg tunnel -> other computer
23:05 < flaxarn> Some problem with sending traffic back to tunnel
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23:06 < flaxarn> My configs https://pastebin.com/raw/7sgmQYCJ
23:06 < Bradipo> Have you diagnosed with tcpdump to see where packets are failing?
23:07 < flaxarn> Fail at "other computer". Doesnt want to accept the traffic
23:07 < Bradipo> So you see the traffic hit "other computer" but "other computer" drops it?
23:08 < flaxarn> Well it doesnt drop, it sees traffic in the wg0, but it is not recognized or something
23:08 < flaxarn> In the pastebin there is tcpdump output
23:09 < Bradipo> I see, so "other computer" sees the traffic on it's wg interface but then it doesn't respond?
23:09 < flaxarn> Yep
23:11 < flaxarn> From Wg server to client (other computer) it will work. I think Wg tunnel is correct but maybe Pf error.....
23:11 < Bradipo> Well, how does OC (10.0.0.1) know to get the traffic back to x.x.x.x.21379?
23:13 < Bradipo> What does the routing table on OC look like?  Where will it send a response for x.x.x.x?
23:13 < flaxarn> My guess was it should respond back just like a computer on BINAT LAN
23:13 < Bradipo> What does OC's routing table say will happen for a packet x.x.x.x?
23:13 < flaxarn> How I check?
23:14 < Bradipo> Well, that depends on the OS of OC.
23:14 < flaxarn> Its both Openbsd
23:14 < Bradipo> If OC is OpenBSD, then you can do: route -n show -inet
23:15 < Bradipo> And then you can reason about what happens when OC receives a packet with a source of x.x.x.x.
23:16 < flaxarn> Well if I receive packet from anywhere on Internet I dont have the x.x.x.x route for it but it goes back
23:16 < Bradipo> How does it accomplish that?
23:17 < flaxarn> I dont know network its why I ask for help here
23:17 < ssm_> is openbsd wg(4) compatible with linux wireguard? I tried setting it up earlier but I could never transmit from either host successfully (probably just doing something wrong)
23:18 < ssm_> I've set up wg(4) between 2 openbsd hosts successfully before
23:18 < flaxarn> ssm_ Yes i have used Wg on Openbsd with Linux connecting to there
23:18 < flaxarn> And Mac...... Android......
23:19 < flaxarn> Wg protocol is same everywhere
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23:19 < Bradipo> flaxarn: So how does a packet get back to the internet when you receive it?
23:19 < Bradipo> Is x.x.x.x in your local routing table?
23:20 < flaxarn> No because x.x.x.x is random computer on Internet
23:20 < Bradipo> Right, but then how does it work?
23:20 < Bradipo> There must be something in the routing table that enables this to work.
23:22 < flaxarn> What i try here is to use wg0 as if it was a multihome interface
23:22 < Bradipo> Let's forget wg0 for the moment.
23:22 < Bradipo> You're missing a crucial piece of knowledge with respect to how routing works. :-)
23:22 < flaxarn> Rly you think?
23:22 < Bradipo> Once you understand this, then things should fall into place.
23:23 < flaxarn> Yes but asking me questions instead of helpful answer is not so useful today......... thanks for trying anyway
23:23 < Bradipo> When you configure a device to communicate on the network (and with the "internet"), what pieces of information are required?
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23:25 < flaxarn> Sorry dont mean to be rude but this isnt helping me 
23:26 < flaxarn> A solution with explanation of the pieces is helpful
23:26 < Bradipo> I'm leading you to your own understanding and solution.
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23:26 < flaxarn> Maybe that is good pedagogic for you but not me. Thanks anyway
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23:28 < vortexx> ssm_: I've got it working with android but not my linux laptop, haven't managed to debug it yet
23:29 < vortexx> flaxarn: I recommend running a routing daemon like bgpd or ospfd on the wg vpn concentrator(s) to help things route. Avoid doind nat if you can at all avoid it
23:29 < vortexx> s/doind/doing
23:30 < vortexx> ssm_: I can get it to connect but nothing pings routes or anything
23:30 < flaxarn> vortexx My attempt was approach it like Wg server is basic server or router, Wg interface is "LAN" and client live in the "LAN"
23:31 < Bradipo> Yes, but this is not his problem and adding bgp/ospf/rip are just complicating what should happen.  His problem is lack of basic routing understanding.  One or two statements in his pf.conf on the "client" will make this work properly, but lack of understanding about how routing works his obscuring the "solution".
23:31 < vortexx> flaxarn: that's my setup too
23:31 < Bradipo> flaxarn: I have this same setup but with SSH not wg.
23:31 < flaxarn> Same plan I use for Openbsd router at home, I can "rdr-to" traffic from Internet into LAN et.c
23:31 < flaxarn> For Wg I am missing some thing and since I dont know networking .........
23:32 < Bradipo> wg is working actually.
23:32 < flaxarn> Yes I can see
23:32 < Bradipo> Your tcpdump shows that wg is working.
23:32 < flaxarn> Obvious or client + server cannot talk
23:33 < flaxarn> Bradipo yes that is my problem, lack of basic routing understanding. Your problem is lack of helpfulness......
23:33 < flaxarn> You can provide solution and explain it and why it work, I can deduce and understand
23:34 < flaxarn> vortexx Can you see what am I missing in the Pf?
23:34 < Bradipo> So you would rather just be spoonfed?
23:35 < Bradipo> It's a simple question.  Based upon the routing table on your OC (client), where will a packet with a source address of x.x.x.x be sent?
23:35 < flaxarn> Please spare me platitude analogy of "teach a man how to fish"....... I can deduce and learn from a solution when seeing it
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23:37 < thrig> set a man on fire, and he'll be warm the rest of his life
23:37 < vortexx> flaxarn: right off the bat for me you're using 10.0.0.0 as an IP. I would change that to 10.0.0.2 to avoid any issues especially as you're cutting it up into a /31. In fact I would not use 10/8 for this, 192.168/16 always feels better and 10/8 gets used for so many enterprise things...
23:37 < flaxarn> vortexx Ok let me try move from point to point to normal subnet. I dont think its actually a problem but gonna test
23:38 < flaxarn> Brb
23:38 < vortexx> flaxarn: you're not passing udp on wg0 either, probably not good
23:38 < Bradipo> 10.0.0.0 might be a perfectly legitimate IP if he's using a subnet of 8.0.0.0/6. :-)
23:38 < vortexx> I pass all traffic on wg0 
23:41 < Bradipo> And I only pass traffic on wg0 that I want (e.g. port 1234).
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23:42 < flaxarn> Bradipo It is legitimate. Its called point to point link
23:42 < Bradipo> But if the intent is to allow all traffic to "client", then yes, it would be appropriate to allow all.
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23:43 < vortexx> 10.0.0.0 is tradtionally a broadcast address not a regular IP
23:43 < Bradipo> If your subnet is 8.0.0.0/6 it would be a regular IP.
23:44 < Bradipo> And 10.0.0.0/8 would have 10.0.0.0 as a "network", not a broadcast.  The broadcast for 10.0.0.0/8 would be 10.255.255.255.
23:45 < flaxarn> Ok changed to large subnet and same result, no change
23:45 < Bradipo> And only super old (e.g. 30+ years) equipment would break with a .0 for an address.
23:46 < vortexx> sh /etc/netstart wg0 on both hosts?
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23:46 < flaxarn> Yep restarted wg0 and pf too to be sure
23:46 < vortexx> and pfctl -f /etc/pf.conf after ajusting pf?
23:46 < vortexx> ok
23:47 < vortexx> ugh yeah Bradipo network not broadcast, but still a problem IP
23:48 < flaxarn> In this case .0 is fine ;-)
23:48 < Bradipo> Yeah, depends on the subnetting though.  Only a problem if it's actually the IP of your network.  I've successfully assigned 10.0.5.0 to devices just fine when the subnet is 10.0.4.0/23 for example.
23:48 < flaxarn> Point-to-point /31 have only two address, dont matter where you place 'em
23:51 < flaxarn> I dont know what route is needed to this. Beacuse I thought on network level Wg interface could behave like other interface for a LAN
23:51 < vortexx> does the server really have to allow wgaip 0.0.0.0/0 ?
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23:51 < vortexx> (wgaip effectively acts as an ACL)
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23:54 < vortexx> btw I use /32 on the point to point addresses, not that that should change anything
23:55 < vortexx> and then wgaip those addresses and whatever networks need accessing
23:55 < vortexx> ssm_: how goes the risc-v board port btw?
23:56 < flaxarn> vortexx I dont know I set /0 only for test. If I change so allow only "other end" behavior is still same
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23:58 < vortexx> flaxarn: did you add udp traffic in pf.conf for wg0?
23:59 < flaxarn> vortexx I did not because should not be needed I think? Wg interface should "unencapsulated"
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--- Log closed Sat May 31 00:00:04 2025