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02:54 < begriffs> .np
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03:18 < thrig> .\" foo
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07:56 < ivdsangen> is anyone using mozilla thunderbird on snapshot/current openbsd amd64? i have not been able to update the package for some time as there is no package on ftp and building the port myself fails
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09:58 < ivdsangen> i managed to build thunderbird, solved by changing datasize-cur of pbuild from 8192M to 12G
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10:51 < anthk_> openbsd has a glob library which can be used as a wordexp replacement, right?
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11:16 < sibiria> ivdsangen: sad, isn't it?
11:16 < sibiria> it reads e-mail; needs 10+ gb to built, 2 gb to run, and has a footprint of half a gig
11:18 < IcePic> anthk_: "man 3 glob" or "man 3 fnmatch" 
11:18 < ivdsangen> sibiria: it works quite well for my purposes though, but yes i feel the requirements could be leaner
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11:19 < IcePic> needing more than 8G to compile and link a mail program is kind of silly
11:19 < ivdsangen> it compiles using rust
11:19 < IcePic> then rust is silly. =)
11:19 < oldlaptop> anthk_: POSIX wordexp() is *not* equivalent to glob(3), fnmatch(3), and friends.
11:20 < ivdsangen> i always have mutt as a backup luckily
11:20 < oldlaptop> (POSIX wordexp() by design can only really be implemented by calling the shell itself, which should by itself explain why OpenBSD does not provide it.)
11:21 < oldlaptop> If you have a specific use case, you should ask about it. Different uses of wordexp() could need to be replaced in different ways.
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11:24 < IcePic> seems apple even used to launch perl instead of /bin/sh to implement wordexp.. https://github.com/Apple-FOSS-Mirror/Libc/blob/2ca2ae74647714acfc18674c3114b1a5d3325d7d/gen/wordexp.c#L192
11:25 < oldlaptop> ?!
11:25 < jca> ivdsangen: yup, that matches the recent login.conf changes that have been recently committed
11:25 < oldlaptop> oh what the hell
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11:26 < oldlaptop> Really an excellent explanation of why openbsd does not provide wordexp().
11:26 < jca> ivdsangen: thunderbird should be available in the next amd64 packages snapshot
11:26 < sibiria> mozilla's "K9" - thunderbird for android - is about 11 mb in size
11:27 < sibiria> it uses android's internal browser engine, but besides that it does a lot of other things differently from Tbird for desktop
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11:28 < ivdsangen> jca: okay, that explains, i found the 12G value in the src/ folder and wondered why sysmerge did not change it
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12:05 < sonya> oh my.. 16g ram is the reality.. what a wonderful world..
12:05 < zelest> :D
12:06 < Ellenor> wait until you have 64 gigs and still are constantly swapping
12:07 < zelest> What on earth are you running? :D
12:07 < IcePic> "emacs"
12:07 < Ellenor> firefox
12:08 < Ellenor> not on openbsd, but i don't imagine the situation would be any better.
12:08 < sibiria> maybe not keep 100+ tabs open
12:08 < zelest> I run both virtual machines and firefox on my OpenBSD machine and I've never used more than 8GB of RAM I think... and never swapped
12:08 < Ellenor> yeah that's the thing, i do a tab massacre, net memory usage does not significantly drop
12:08 < zelest> No idea how people succeed using so much RAM all the time
12:09 < Ellenor> Code's leaky.
12:09 < zelest> My tabs aren't open long enough for them to leak very much :P
12:09 < Ellenor> I'm currently nursing a memory leak in Xorg which manifests with both amdgpu and i915.
12:09 < zelest> Wayland is the future I've heard
12:10 < Ellenor> tried that
12:10 < sibiria> running google earth in firefox on openbsd leaks video memory until the whole browser crashes
12:10 < Ellenor> i recommend not attempting to use your computer at 3fps :D
12:10 < sibiria> other than that i never really had problems with a mere 8gb
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12:12 < il> I'm curious about the consensus here... Is it reasonable to block an IP because of a recurring connection every hour, if the connection isn't malicious?
12:13 < sibiria> i wouldn't bother
12:13 < zelest> ^
12:13 < il> (context: my miniflux server got blocked by one of the blogs I follow, it refreshes the feed every hour (tries to))
12:13 < sibiria> sounds a bit nazi to me
12:13 < il> I emailed the admin and he told me that because he posts once every 2 weeks, getting a request once an hour is putting an unjustified load on his server
12:14 < oldlaptop> If that's a notable load, it sure sounds like an inefficient server.
12:14 < jgh> his server, his rules
12:14 < sibiria> once an hour doesn't sound like a "load" at all from where i'm sitting. sounds like a contrived reason
12:14 < il> I don't know, doesn't seem very thought out to me
12:14 < il> jgh: that's true
12:15 < il> but it effectively makes the RSS feed useless to me
12:15 < il> I end up having to open his site to see new posts, because my RSS feed reader has been blocked for over a month lol
12:15 < oldlaptop> No rule saying you have to think through your rules for your servers. (Or offer an RSS feed at all.)
12:15 < il> Of course, but it can't be the best for reach
12:15 < Ellenor> i couldn't even spin up a proper session nor leave the thing running for long enough to do that
12:16 < oldlaptop> I doubt "ping rss.xml every hour" is a particularly AI-crawler-like access pattern, but these days there seem to be a lot of sites that assume "browse without js turned on" is an AI-crawler-like access pattern.
12:16 < Ellenor> il, if the upstream server is overloaded, anything is acceptable in love and war
12:16 < sibiria> it sounds very counter-productive and anal-retentive to me, even if it had been 15 years ago
12:16 < Ellenor> but i doubt it is
12:16 < RobbieAB> Most likely triggered an automated rule and the admin can't be bothered white-listing/unblocking you.
12:16 < il> RobbieAB: can a request for that specific file (rss feed) be excepted from the rule?
12:17 < oldlaptop> (straining mightily to connect to a possible practical problem)
12:17 < il> That's specifically what I asked in the initial email
12:17 < IcePic> once per hour still feels weirdly tight
12:17 < Ellenor> it's a shame HTTP does not have a «4xx engage exponential backoff»
12:17 < IcePic> as a rule, that is
12:17 < oldlaptop> We'd need to know how this rule is implemented.
12:17 < RobbieAB> il: You can request anything you like, and the admin can still decide "Nah, can't be bothered"
12:17 < RobbieAB> The simplest fix might be to reduce your polling interval to daily
12:17 < oldlaptop> It could be "read logs, see that the hits are all il's RSS reader GETting rss.xml, get annoyed."
12:17 < il> RobbieAB: naw, it wasn't a request, more a question of technical viability (I imagine it ought to be possible, though)
12:17 < IcePic> if the content changes every 2w or so, its a super perfect candidate for just being a static piece of cached data
12:17 < RobbieAB> And then wait and see if after a week or two you just get be unblocked.
12:18 < il> oldlaptop: lmao
12:18 < RobbieAB> il: Technical viability "depends" on a lot of things, including the other parties ability. 
12:18 < RobbieAB> Honestly, reduce your polling interval.
12:18 < il> Alright... Leaving aside moral questions... Would you block this, lol
12:18 < sibiria> the RSS should be static, small in size, and the whole scheme is made specifically to facilitate quick glance updates without "full reloads". and yet the admin runs a scheme to block and police even the RSS
12:18 < il> RobbieAB: yeah, the only way to do that would be globally
12:18 < sibiria> it's just weird and backwards
12:19 < il> I sohuld probably do that anyway
12:19 < RobbieAB> il: Explictly? Probably not.
12:19 < oldlaptop> RobbieAB: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTTP/Reference/Status/429
12:19 < il> I don't read the feeds often enough to justify once an hour
12:19 < RobbieAB> Accidentally because you managed to trigger a rule? Probably.
12:19 < il> once every eight hours
12:19 < IcePic> oldlaptop: "I am slowly becoming a teapot" ;)
12:19 < il> I wonder if that too will get blacklisted
12:19 < RobbieAB> And if you accidentally trigger a rule, I may well decide I don't care enough to do anything about it. Depends on my mood, the phase of the moon, the weather...
12:20 < Ellenor> I would only block once-an-hour behaviour if there were a lot of clients doing "on the hour, every hour", and if it was specifically on the hour
12:20 < Ellenor> but even that, not really
12:20 < il> Now, here's administrating incompetence... I haven't touched my miniflux instance for at least a year and I have no idea how I've set it up and where the config files are lol
12:20 < oldlaptop> Ellenor: That could get pretty rude.
12:20 < RobbieAB> il: Now imaging that is how my automated rules are working... ;)
12:21 < il> I don't think I never did any advanced blocking, just some stuff for ssh
12:21 < RobbieAB> I think it is safe to say no one here would deliberately block "once an hour" unless there were serious idiocy issues going on.
12:21 < IcePic> ^^^^^
12:22 < il> Eh, I can understand a proactive approach, especially here
12:22 < Ellenor> once an hour, on the hour, from literal millions of clients - I could see a reason for it
12:22 < Ellenor> once an hour, random minutes from different IPs - no
12:22 < RobbieAB> But that doesn't mean you won't manage to trigger something by mistake in an automated blocking tool.
12:22 < il> It's the same IP every time
12:23 < il> I should migrate my miniflux instance to this VPS (openbsd)... ugh...
12:23 < RobbieAB> New IP would get around the block, reduce the polling window... :D
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12:23 < il> ahahahahah, not because of that
12:23 < sibiria> Ellenor: that feels like a bit of a fallacy to me. on a site with such immense traffic, once an hour (especially for trifle amounts like RSS) is nothing at all
12:23 < il> I just want to migrate all my services to openbsd
12:23 < il> there are only 3, though, and two of them would be easy, because no database
12:24 < sibiria> it's an RSS feed. once an hour is nothing. it's just old grumpy man behavior
12:24 < Ellenor> sibiria, i was, in fact, posing a hypothetical
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12:24 < sibiria> i will conclude: the admin of the blog is an idiot
12:24 < il> lmao
12:24 < RobbieAB> If your millions of hits an hour is actually millions of hits a second for three seconds, followed by 3597 seconds of nothing...
12:24 < il> now I would feel bad about sharing the blog
12:25 < Ellenor> RobbieAB, those 3597 seconds, some of them would be spent answering those millions of hits
12:25 < RobbieAB> Ellenor: Up to 30, or possibly even 300... I'm just playing with the hypothetical.
12:26 < il> I wonder if there is a real purpose to migrating my miniflux database... I don't remember if I ever went back to my saved/favorited posts and re-read anything...
12:26 < RobbieAB> That kind of traffic pattern smacks of someone we really bad cron discipline.
12:26 < il> not having to mark all the posts I've read in the feeds I have as read again would be convenient, though
12:26 < Ellenor> like, if i was doing something like that, rather than necessarily blocking, especially if i could afford the bandwidth (which likely would be the case), i would just put out an article saying, «consider setting your poll to an odd number generated by randomware, that way you're less likely to hit 5xx errors, by the way, this is how much less bandwidth i'd use if everyone here halved their polling
12:26 < Ellenor> interval»
12:26 < Ellenor> i wonder, as well
12:27 < il> 403 error is what I actually get
12:27 < Ellenor> i need to look into RSS protocol
12:27 < Ellenor> before i say more and make myself look dumber
12:27 < il> it's just a http request for a feed file
12:27 < sibiria> 503 would be the suitable response
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12:28  * RobbieAB would probably amuse himself figuring out how to engineer the system to handle all the requests in reasonable time.
12:28 < sibiria> so what's the blog then?
12:29 < sibiria> who's the moron
12:29 < il> cheapskatesguide.org
12:29 < sibiria> ok that says it all.
12:29 < il> the server might be very old, so it might be under load from http requests lol
12:29 < RobbieAB> Because let's be fair, 1 million requests a second for most modern hardware should be in the territory of boring.
12:29 < sibiria> clearly he's exercising habitual penny-pinching by doing this!!
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12:30 < sibiria> RobbieAB: especially for a static RSS file of practically no size
12:30 < RobbieAB> At least for non-bloated frameworks.
12:30 < Ellenor> Boring, no, but not interesting in the way of being unhandlable.
12:30 < RobbieAB> sibiria: So basically, a memcached instance? Job done.
12:31 < RobbieAB> If I have a 100Mbit line, 1 million requests a second might be unreasonable, for bandwidth reasons.
12:32 < sibiria> unlikely he's getting 1m rps
12:32 < RobbieAB> Actually, bandwidth factors probably make 1 million requests a second relatively interesting in a "crack open the wallet" sense.
12:32 < il> at least 3.6 billion readers
12:32 < il> refreshing once an hour
12:32 < il> it seems my home IP is blocked as well now
12:32 < RobbieAB> System side it is relatively uninteresting.
12:32 < il> can't wget the feed file
12:33 < sibiria> i really do think the admin is habitually cheap-skating solely for the sake of doing so, without any thought of how little traffic fetching an RSS file each hour amounts to
12:33 < sonya> he just "feels Power"™.. i guess..
12:33 < il> it's 3000 bytes
12:33 < il> the file
12:34 < il> sibiria: if I was messing with adaptive blocking, I'd probably do something similar
12:34 < il> but then I'd write a blog post about everything I know about the topic after spending 3 weeks reading everything I can about it
12:36 < sibiria> the blog has a whole article on his view of how others should use his RSS. it's a grumpy and stingy read
12:36 < sibiria> smh
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12:37 < il> really? link it, pls
12:37 < il> I have just found out that I set up a docker container for my miniflux instance, apparently 11 months ago (0 recall)
12:37 < il> I know nothing about docker lol
12:38 < sibiria> il: it's linked right on his front page
12:39 < il> Have to find out how to backup a postgres db from a docker instance
12:39 < sibiria> at the bottom in red text
12:39 < il> bro... I think my home IP is blocked now...
12:39 < il> because I opened the site 10 times today
12:40 < sibiria> the man is an anal-retentive. forget about the site and move on. let it be someone else's problem
12:40 < sibiria> i recommend Apex Legends. great battle royale escape for venting
12:42 < il> I'm just very curious about the RSS feed post, but I guess I'm not reading it today lmao
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12:43 < sibiria> it's OrgId:          AEL-360
12:43 < sibiria> oops, copy/paste from his whois
12:43 < sibiria> 2 sec
12:43 < il> the the low tech magazine, which is literally hosted on a raspberry pi, powered by a solar panel
12:43 < sibiria> this: https://cheapskatesguide.org/policy-on-robots.html
12:43 < il> has never been this strict with me
12:43 < il> and their limitations are hard limitations
12:44 < il> sibiria: I'll pull it to this vps and then to my pc to read it lmao
12:44 < il> (he blocks all known VPN IPs as well)
12:45 < sibiria> i get the impression that he's doing a permanent block as well. not just a temporary timeout. which has a very personal and closed-minded touch to it
12:45 < sibiria> grumpy man on throne
12:45 < RobbieAB> Honestly, the site owner sounds like an arrogant opinionated individual to me.
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12:46 < sibiria> probably polished the fail2ban scheme and the RSS how-not-to page for a day, just to save 3 cents a month on egress costs
12:49 < il> I haven't worked this hard to read something in years
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12:50 < sonya> il: i'd recommend to try/use (free) proxies, if it's really needed.. a lot of (almost all i know) proxies provide selection of ips/servers to choose from for no cost..
12:50 < il> yep, this is too much work, I think I'll just remove the RSS feed from miniflux
12:51 < il> sonya: I have a few external static IPs so I managed to download with one IP that isn't banned yet, but this use case is really rare
12:52 < il> rsync-minimal port doesn't support compression?
12:52 < il> I just saw that it doesn't come with lz4, zstd etc. dependencies
12:53 < il> Yep, no compression
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12:53 < il> trading maintainability (I guess) for bandwidth
12:59 < RobbieAB> Also, simplicity. 
12:59 < RobbieAB> I can see places where rsync without compression would potentially be highly useful.
13:01 < il> Like what (genuinely curious)
13:03 < IcePic> if you rsync within an ipsec tunnel that also compresses for instance
13:04 < IcePic> or rsync-over-ssh which does compression
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13:04 < IcePic> in 2025, "compression uses up too much cpu" is not relevant, but it might have been once
13:05 < sibiria> with zstd these days, it's almost transparent
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13:07 < IcePic> then again, adding a zillion different compressors as deps to rsync in ports makes it dependant on all these compressors working and being compiled for all platforms
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13:08 < IcePic> so while rsync itself is rather "easy" to make work on all arches, stuff like zstd might have weird dependencies on things like .. MMX/SSE/AVX/Neon or whatever for zomg-perf reasons, and then sparc64,macppc,alpha and so on get no rsync for "no" good reason
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13:18 < il> IcePic: good explanation, it makes sense
13:21  * oldlaptop wonders how much of the compression stuff is old enough for Altivec to be in that list of assembly-accelerator thingies
13:22 < oldlaptop> fftw has altivec asm, IIRC
13:22 < oldlaptop> You know, just enough to get macppc off your list :P (except it has to support G3s, doesn't it)
13:22 < IcePic> my guess is that checksumming might be a better target for SIMD instructions than perhaps compression, but many compressors do checksum the data aswell
13:24 < sibiria> altivec was/is very impressive. back in mid 2000s when i got my first ppc laptop (ibook) i wrote a fast 4d quaternion julia renderer using it. faster than contemporary x86 + simd of the time
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13:25 < il> back in mid 2000s, I was learning my first letters lmao
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14:45 < anthk_> altivec = good for videos
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14:50 < RobbieAB> anthk_: And yet, these days, remarkably painful to deal with in the Linux space at least.
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18:44  * sonya misses G4.. liked it.. and lord, how i wanted G3 mini-tower..
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18:45 < Bradipo> I had a G4, wasn't impressed.
18:46 < systemdsucks> those altivec things were cousins with ps2 hardware right?
18:47 < sonya> it wasn't top of the shelf, but was better than G3.. and G3 was the one i wanted.. :))
18:56 < sibiria> systemdsucks: no. altivec is PPC vectorization engine, equivalent to x86 SSE
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18:56 < sibiria> PS2 uses MIPS CPU
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19:02 < sibiria> i remember my G4 ibook at the time outpacing most things x86 laptops
19:02 < sibiria> was a pretty sweet lappy
19:03 < RobbieAB> And then came the G5 which they couldn't make cool enough to put in a laptop?
19:03 < sibiria> i suppose that was the reason
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19:21 < oldlaptop> If I understand correctly, "G3" and "G4" were two successive generations of Motorola (maybe Freescale by the end?) product, and "G5" was IBM's PPC970, aka "POWER4 cores, only with altivec added and packaged for workstations"
19:21 < oldlaptop> and wouldn't you know it, POWER4 wasn't designed with laptops in mind
19:23 < thrig> big iron for gov't contracts
19:24 < oldlaptop> or playing Jeopardy, one of the two
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19:24 < oldlaptop> (would have been several POWERs later)
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19:25 < topcat001> the M series is pretty fast as well now
19:26 < oldlaptop> ARM is boring. Too mainstream, man.
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19:47 < systemdsucks> sibiria: thanks, I'm experiencing bitrot it seems
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21:05 < vortexx> oldlaptop: it'll be too mainstream when it ends up with one single bootloader. Till then...
21:06 < oldlaptop> They won't make that mistake again!
21:06 < vortexx> and riscv has this issue too. I don't understand why firmware to load an OS is still an issue in 2025
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--- Log closed Tue Jul 22 00:00:33 2025