--- Log opened Fri Jul 25 00:00:37 2025
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00:51 < il> lol, I just mussed up my doas.conf in a way which makes it impossible to fix
00:51 < il> and my only non-root user (that I'm logged in as) isn't in the wheel group, so can't su root
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00:52 < il> good thing the vps provider provides a non-ssh console (because ofc I disabled connecting over ssh as root user lol)
00:52 < il> I have fixed it, but I was scared for a second lol
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00:54 < pardis> it's a good idea to keep at least one user in the wheel group for exactly this reason
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01:18 < il> good point, I've done it lol
01:18 < il> and checked, I can su now
01:19 < il> Is there any pragmatic/safety reason to have more than one non-root user
01:19 < il> other than having dedicated users for some services (e.g. git)
01:21 < rnelson> Multiple people using it is a pretty good pragmatic and safety reasons?
01:22 < thrig> generally a good idea to make the users distinct so they cannot mess with files of other users, or so that limits can be better enforced, etc
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01:22 < thrig> or file system quotas, etc
01:23 < il> rnelson: there are very few systems I shared, only pubnixes
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01:24 < thrig> downsides are then sharing files as the default unix permissions don't allow for much and some daemons drop additional groups
01:24 < il> I've never managed one, but they generally enforced very good fs perms, you couldn't mess with other peoples' files, and usually could only read the files you did have access to 
01:28 < pardis> the pragmatic reasons to have more than one non-root user are the same as those to have one root user
01:28 < pardis> if you have no need to separate privileges, then you can do everything as root
01:35 < il> well, on systems accessed remotely, I feel you always ought to have one non-root user
01:35 < il> but I take your point
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02:46 < luna_> hi
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07:22 < Feigr> I am customizing xedit a bit using Xresources, and I can't get it to care about the hintsInterval resource. Other things work, like enableBackups, loadTags but hintsInterval doesn't seem to work, maybe there is a minimum value in seconds I need to stay over?
07:23 < Feigr> I have set xedit.hints to just say 'xedit' and it does switch to that about 5 minutes after I start the program, but I have hintsInterval set to 2 seconds
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07:35 < Feigr> update: I set hintsInterval to 60 seconds and that works, so right now I am guessing that the time needs to be at least 60 seconds
07:35 < Feigr> dunno if that's important enough to put into the manpage
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07:38 < Feigr> I tried it more, and 30 seconds works, but now 20, so 30 is the cutoff it seems
07:38 < Feigr> *not 20
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08:02 < ivdsangen> Feigr: https://github.com/openbsd/xenocara/blob/master/app/xedit/xedit.c#L629
08:02 < ivdsangen> that looks like the relevant part of the code
08:05 < Feigr> ivdsangen: I am very much a novice still when it comes to C :)
08:06 < Feigr> looking at it, I can't see where it sets the minimum interval
08:07 < ivdsangen> line 641 and 642 are involved i guess
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08:07 < Feigr> ah yes line 66
08:07 < Feigr> 300 seconds
08:07 < Feigr> that's the default value there
08:08 < ivdsangen> and line 627 is the minimum value
08:08 < Feigr> yeah but that says 5 and I can't it to work with less than 30
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08:10 < Feigr> but is the 5 there in minutes?
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08:12 < IcePic> it says 5, but that 5 gets multiplied by 1000 later, so it might be some kind of "ticks" or whatever
08:12 < IcePic>  if (hints->interval < MIN_HINT_INTERVAL)
08:12 < IcePic> 	hints->interval = DEF_HINT_INTERVAL;
08:12 < IcePic>     hints->interval *= 1000;
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08:12 < IcePic> or milliseconds
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16:02 < jerryf> in vi is there a way to pipe the output of an ex command into a file, or into an external command?
16:03 < jerryf> for example I am interested in using the output of :display screens
16:04 < Feigr> off the top of my head you might be able to use tee
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16:42 < thrig> pretty sure :display goes to a temporary buffer thing that you can't do much with
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17:49 < vortexx> il: or have PermitRootLogin as prohibit-password in sshd_config
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19:28 < skippy8> What is the relation between ports updates and package updates? I see a port that was recently updated and I would like to know when a related package will be updated as well. Is there defined a "process" for that?
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19:28 < sibiria> there is not
19:28 < sibiria> it happens some time after the port maintainer can be bothered to push the update
19:29 < uwharrie> and then an update will be available when it gets built, uploaded, then mirrored
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19:33 < il> vortexx: so it allows ssh-key connection for root?
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19:53 < skippy8> sibiria: uwharrie: OK, thanks a lot!
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20:44 < vortexx> il: yes
20:45 < vortexx> but only if the key is allowed
20:45 < vortexx> the really paranoid don't allow this
20:45 < vortexx> or you can do the devious bastard trick of making a toor user with uid/gid 0/0 and use that instead
20:46 < vortexx> that way you know all root logins are violations and you just log in via key as toor
20:47 < vortexx> uwharrie: built signed uploaded then mirrored
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21:12 < rtj> vortexx: That's a clever idea. Never thought about it like that.
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21:20 < Matt|home> is there some semi-official or official handbook-style sys admin doc, or is it just the man pages for open? man pages are fine, i just prefer something more noob-structured in the beginning
21:21 < sibiria> the FAQ on openbsd.org has a few hints here and there. but nothing substantial.
21:21 < sibiria> and so many competing schools and practices
21:21 < sibiria> so many deadly feuds over the years
21:21 < sibiria> so many lost lives...
21:22 < sibiria> the guild of reckless doas-ers... the fellowship of wise su-ers... endless battles
21:23 < Matt|home> :p right now im specifically looking for a tutorial on how to install a downloaded binary package with all it's dependencies manually on an airgapped computer. last time i ran into so many issues
21:23 < Matt|home> but i've solved at least one of them
21:23 < sibiria> a USB flash stick will work
21:23 < Matt|home> that's oneo f the issues i ran into :p my flash drive decided to develop split personality disorder on me the other day
21:23 < sibiria> get a new one
21:23 < Matt|home> we sat down, talked it out, came to a mutual understanding
21:23 < vortexx> rtj: it's a very old trick
21:24 < vortexx> I didn't come up with it
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21:28 < vortexx> Matt|home: pkg_add -n -l pkglist and just download all the packages listed to the usb key
21:28 < g4rrgl3n0m4d> Audio Transfer should work if your computer has a mic but it's also very prone to errors ... can't remember the name of software I used long time ago
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21:28 < Matt|home> vortexx - no internet, i have to manually check. which is fine
21:28 < Matt|home> somebody did it for me a few days ago anyway
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21:29 < Matt|home> but let's do that now just to make sure i'm on the correct page..
21:29 < rtj> vortexx: I've seen it on some os/appliance but I never understood the reasoning behind it.
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21:30 < vortexx> Matt|home: you can simulate having the internet on the device, by running httpd and using localhost or hostname as the /etc/installurl
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21:31 < vortexx> then you copy all packages to /var/www/htdocs/pub/OpenBSD/$release/$arch/ and pkg_add will work fine
21:31 < vortexx>  /etc/installurl can have http://yourhost/pub/OpenBSD in it
21:32 < vortexx> rtj: yes I wouldn't be surprised if it's been in use since the 90s if no the 80s
21:32 < Matt|home> hm. just out of curiosity, do any of the installation images come pre packaged with gpg ? that's literally all i need the computer for right now
21:33 < vortexx> they don't
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21:33 < Matt|home> bah. alright
21:33 < vortexx> gpg is not part of the sets
21:33 < rtj> Weaponized dyslexia for security writing it backwards. 
21:33 < Matt|home> i feel like including some heavily tested security packages might be a good idea, but i guess i understand why they don't want to
21:33 < vortexx> (it's got a GNU license, and the devs try to keep GNU stuff down to a minimum in base)
21:34 < vortexx> Matt|home: like ssh? :)
21:35 < rtj> Nice to see some activity. Happy Friday everybody.
21:35 < rtj> Thanks for tips.
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21:36 < mischief> Matt|home: signify is usually used for signing, and anything else libressl. what use would gpg have in base?
21:36 < Matt|home> alright let's see.. im trying to be as secure as possible, and im treating everything like radioactive contamination. in general, is there a difference between downloading the installation media on a specific system (e.g. in my case windows or fbsd), or is that a really pointless comparison? im assuming the likelihood of extremely advanced malware that would target something like this is fairly rare
21:36 < Matt|home> i was under the impression gpg was the defacto standard in encryption still? i don't know much about it mischief 
21:37 < Matt|home> all i know is that gpg uses insanely large prime numbers or something and it's been heavily tested, that's the extent of what i know about crypto and security
21:37 < vortexx> Matt|home: if you google "essential system administration" you'll find there's a O'Reilly book by that title, and many faculties in various countries happen to have it available as free download as a pdf. It can be of use
21:37 < Matt|home> ty <3
21:37 < sibiria> you *might* be fed a package that was tampered with, if you're being targeted. but that package won't have a legit signature, so it won't pass installation unless you force it
21:39 < vortexx> signify is the openbsd tool to resolve some 90 if not 95% use cases for gpg
21:39 < anthk_> uhm, hyperbola gnu (future BSD) it's trying to do the reverse, deblobbing the openbsd core, but for sure they keep it ISC
21:39 < Matt|home> i am curious though, what's more likely.. malware targeting less used operating systems simply by virtue of the fact that they're more rare and theoretically more likely to fall through the cracks, or malware targeting wider used systems .. which might have larger security audits
21:39 < Matt|home> i dunno
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21:40 < Matt|home> vortexx - i need something cross platform but i'll use both
21:40 < sibiria> look at windows and android. the two OSes that together account for like 95% of all malware ever written
21:40 < vortexx> the problem with more rare is keeping up with modern problems, if the dev team can't, you're at risk of many an issue
21:40 < Matt|home> but not macos eh? im told ios e.g. is very secure
21:41 < sibiria> very little malware for macOS
21:41 < vortexx> Matt|home: signify has been ported to gnu/linux
21:41 < vortexx> ubuntu certainly has it
21:41 < Matt|home> alright, for now i'll just treat my windows computer as potentially infected i guess
21:41 < vortexx> I dunno for windows
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21:42 < vortexx> https://github.com/stoeckmann/signify-windows
21:42 < vortexx> it's available
21:42 < Matt|home> are they just different encryption methods or is one objectively better than the other?
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21:43 < sibiria> they solve similar problems. but the tools themselves are very different
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21:43 < Feigr> I have used the inform7 compiler a lot on FreeBSD because there is a port for it there, but OpenBSD doesn't have a port for it, is there a way to know if any work has even been done to port it to OpenBSD? I tried to email the FreeBSD maintainer for the port but my email bounced
21:44 < vortexx> iirc signify just ties into whatever is the current best encryption on OpenBSD, or $platform
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21:44 < oldlaptop> vortexx: I seem to recall it deliberately supports only one cipher (ed25519 or something).
21:45 < sibiria> signify is indeed ed25519 only
21:45 < oldlaptop> rather like wireguard in that respect
21:45 < vortexx> sibiria: ah
21:45 < vortexx> well that's currently good
21:45 < vortexx> I guess it doesn't match the "gpg insanely large prime" claim
21:46 < Matt|home> don't take my word for it, im going off of memory
21:46 < sibiria> "slightly" different than RSA
21:46 < oldlaptop> if the ChatGPT quantum AI singularity destroys ed25519, I guess there'll just have to be a signify flag day.
21:46 < vortexx> Feigr: https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-ports&w=2&r=1&s=inform7&q=b no one has requested it on the ports list
21:46 < vortexx> I'll check misc@
21:47 < oldlaptop> The whole point of elliptic-curve cryptography (such as ed25519) is to avoid the need for "insanely large primes" (which, being insanely large, are inconvenient).
21:47 < vortexx> nothing on misc@
21:47 < oldlaptop> signify keys could be printed on CD labels, back when those were still sold
21:47 < Feigr> vortexx: I did download the FreeBSD and tried fiddling with the Makefile a bit, but I am out of my depth unfortunately when it comes to Makefiles and porting etc
21:47 < vortexx> oldlaptop: to update you on my issue I was facing last weekend, I found a non-it but banking way to solve it. I have some peace of mind now
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21:47 < Feigr> the FreeBSD port*
21:48  * oldlaptop wouldn't expect to get anywhere trying to hack a FreeBSD port into an OpenBSD port
21:48 < Feigr> it might be very simple to make it work I dunno
21:48 < vortexx> Feigr: you can mail ports@openbsd.org to see if you can rustle up some help but I've never heard of that compiler
21:49 < Feigr> vortexx: it's the inform7 language, a programming language solely for writing text adventures :)
21:49 < oldlaptop> Their patches may or may not be illuminating as to whether you'll need changes on openbsd (and if so what).
21:49 < vortexx> Feigr: oh THAT language, ok
21:49 < Feigr> QUITE niche
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21:50 < vortexx> well you might get some interest
21:50 < vortexx> we do have /usr/games after all
21:51  * rtj gets triggerd for nethack
21:51 < Matt|home> alright.. can someone point me to a URL where i can browse the list of available packages? can't seem to find it on the website. i assume there's an actual website URL where i can manually download them
21:52 < oldlaptop> The HTTP mirrors will all have autoindex on.
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21:53 < oldlaptop> so e.g. http://ftp.openbsd.org/pub/OpenBSD/7.7/packages/amd64/ is an authoritative list of binary packages available for 7.7 on amd64.
21:53 < Matt|home> https://cdn.openbsd.org/pub/OpenBSD/7.7/amd64/ <--?
21:53 < Matt|home> ah i missedi t
21:53 < sibiria> and don't forget to see if updated version is available in packages-stable
21:53 < vortexx> Matt|home: if you google BSD Hacks you'll find some useful information too
21:53 < oldlaptop> There are multiple websites based on the sqlports package that offer UIs for searching the ports tree, which is subtly different
21:54 < Matt|home> yep, eyes bounced off of the packages directory like 10x looking at the mirror :p thanks oldlaptop 
21:54 < vortexx> not all of it still works but the mtree examples do
21:54 < oldlaptop> e.g. https://openports.pl/path/databases/sqlports
21:55 < sibiria> openbsd.app is pretty good
21:55 < oldlaptop> Ports are the infrastructure for building binary packages, but they don't correspond 1:1 - one port can build multiple binaries (FLAVORs), etc.
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21:55 < rtj> sibiria: Yeah thats a cool one. Openports.se is still burned in my brain for some reason.
21:55 < oldlaptop> And so far as I'm aware the different sqlports sites all use snapshots/-current sqlports.
21:55 < oldlaptop> openports.se was... /not preferable/ when it was still there
21:56 < rtj> Ok I was not aware. They URL was just easy to remember. I guess I was too amature to notice that.
21:56 < vortexx> I just use mirror.ungleich.ch as it's my local mirror if I just want to use the browser search function on it (has snapshot packages too, so you can see what's coming next) (most mirrors have both snapshot and stable)
21:56 < oldlaptop> basically precisely because it didn't use sqlports (and its scrapers or whatever were therefore sometimes/often wrong)
21:56 < Matt|home> okay, if i download one of these packages, try to install it with pkg_add and it requires a dependency, i'll get a message telling me the exact package name right? and i can just keep manually downloading each individual package until all dependencies are met this way?
21:57 < oldlaptop> That sounds pretty painful, but I suppose so.
21:57 < sibiria> yes and yes
21:57 < sibiria> but you can look up the deps in advance
21:57 < vortexx> Matt|home: thus using pkg_add -n to get the full list of dependencies without installing the package
21:57 < oldlaptop> (sqlports would be one way to do that)
21:57 < sibiria> openbsd.app, for example, will list them too
21:57 < Matt|home> i want this computer airgapped 100%
21:57 < oldlaptop> but vortexx's idea (which I obliquely suggested the last time you asked about this) is better
21:58 < Matt|home> i appreciate it <3
21:58 < Matt|home> should make dinner first though
21:58 < vortexx> yes, dinner first
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21:58 < oldlaptop> (albiet requiring "another" system outside the airgap - I suppose we're assuming an air gap is an appropriate solution for whatever you're doing. "Is this trip really necessary?")
21:58 < rtj> You looks 20 int hacking on an empy stomach.
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21:59 < vortexx> airgapped is fine but if you have over a 1Tb on drive just download all packages off mirror and copy them over 
21:59 < vortexx> sibiria: how big is pub/OpenBSD/7.7/packages/amd64 atm?
21:59 < Matt|home> yeah i know im being overly paranoid, but i have good reason to be. although my assumption is low tech attacks are preferable in general, so my paranoia here might not be warranted
21:59 < oldlaptop> Yeah, that's probably the way to go for most applications that an airgap is really a good idea for.
22:00 < sibiria> vortexx: no idea. huge? :) 1tb sounds like in the ballpark
22:00 < vortexx> sibiria: thanks :)
22:00 < rtj> Matt|home: Will you be using a faraday cage too?
22:00 < Matt|home> good idea, i lack the space tho. i'll just do this the painful but idiot-proof way
22:00 < vortexx> it's made worse by debug- packages
22:00 < vortexx> not everyone needs those all the time
22:01 < oldlaptop> or at all
22:01 < vortexx> plus there's not even one for nginx
22:01 < oldlaptop> That sounds like a sore spot with a story.
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22:02 < Matt|home> rtj - lemme put it this way. i recently got a dirt cheap lockpick set
22:02 < Matt|home> ... and the fact that i kept cash in my apartment, combined with how stupid easy my lock was to open, gave me chills just thinking about it :/
22:02 < rtj> Nice I was just being silly.
22:03 < Matt|home> at this point i wouldn't even trust a bank to not f*** it up
22:03 < vortexx> I was trying to set up the reverse proxy mode, I managed without a debug package in the end. It was when I was heavily messing with multiple uplinks and needed a reverse proxy on the router for nextcloud otherwise things went sideways with downloads off it
22:03 < oldlaptop> (In the US, pretty much every residential lock is that sort of 'advisory'-level security. I don't think burglars bother picking them anyway, that's what the window brick is for.)
22:04 < Matt|home> you're correct. but my point is that the thin veneer of security i convinced myself i had for a long time went out the window. yes, most crimes are crimes of opportunity
22:05 < Matt|home> however, i think paranoia is more warranted than not now because of it. just a personal preference
22:05 < oldlaptop> Spinning into an adjacent topic, but the hilarious state of physical security (locks and locksmithing, anyway) is a pretty good worked example of where computer security would be if the vendors had gotten *all* their way, WRT full disclosure.
22:05 < vortexx> I know of a medium level of comfort residential building in the US built in the 70s, all condos, and the residents over the years realized some door keys opened other condo doors, not necessarily on the floor but still...
22:05 < oldlaptop> We bellyache about "coordinated disclosure" and embargoes and so on, but WOW could it ever be worse.
22:06 < vortexx> yeah physical remains... bad
22:06 < oldlaptop> vortexx: Sounds like someone didn't quite do master keying exactly right.
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22:06 < rtj> oldlaptop: Same as the analog garage door codes. You can only make so many and garages are attached to some houses. 
22:06 < vortexx> oldlaptop: it appears o
22:06 < vortexx> so
22:06 < rtj> Ok I'm taking off my tinfoil hat now.
22:07 < vortexx> and also over 50 years issuing keys... in the end they just redid all the front door locks
22:08 < vortexx> rtj: there was that issue with car fobs for high end cars too
22:08 < vortexx> but that was like 20 years ago
22:08 < rtj> rtj: Yes I recall I have a hackrf.
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22:10 < Matt|home> hm let's see. a long time ago i tried writing a very basic "virus" (really was just an elf binary parser) for linux. i never read too much on it because of how advanced they were but i really did like the of worm propagation as a coding exercise. i see openbsd takes a lot of measuers, randomized addressing etc, so here's a silly little question
22:12 < Matt|home> what would a good type of exploit to try be for open.. 
22:12 < Matt|home> hm. im not very creative
22:12 < sibiria> any that gets its job done
22:12 < vortexx> it's just harder on default openbsd
22:13 < Matt|home> well, yeah but there's a difference between "gaining root" and "violently ejecting the cd rom drive" :D
22:13 < vortexx> especially in the latest releases
22:13 < Matt|home> im looking for something silly and fun
22:13 < sibiria> well if the goal is to spook the user with the CD tray...
22:13 < vortexx> gaining remote root is the usual objectivte
22:13 < vortexx> -t
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22:14 < Matt|home> i did have an idea once of loading an entire system into RAM, slowly eating away at it and then replacing it with my own kernel eventually :D 
22:14 < Matt|home> from userland that is
22:19 < Matt|home> chatgpt suggestion: "worm as a pledge-compliant binary. write a binar that: uses only pledged funcionality, has zero privelege escelation, spreads only through allowed means (e.g. open file descriptors/userland sockets), evades detection using kque, timeouts and subtlety. trick the system into hosting the worm as part of a CI/CD chain or auto updater" <-- thoughts? sounds like a good months-long exercise for me
22:19 < oldlaptop> Amusing that the lie machine thinks it's a good idea for a worm to use pledge.
22:20 < Matt|home> i asked it for a challenge :p im open to suggestions
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22:21 < Matt|home> i assume there's no monetary prize in me doing this and showing it off to the core dev team, so i'll just treat this like an exercise
22:22 < vortexx> worms are usually known for infection via network means, you're just a virus if you're using sneakernet
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22:22 < vortexx> (which some buggers in the security services decided to call malware)
22:22 < Matt|home> yep, my idea here is to propagate through the installation media itself somehow. a lot of USB drives do have theoretically hidden page thingies
22:22 < vortexx> (like viruses worked on all OSes back in the floppy era)
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22:29 < vortexx> or rather, as if viruses worked on
22:29 < vortexx> viruses were always OS specific, limiting their spread
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22:33 < rtj> Just squirt a little raid in the comptuer case.
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22:36 < vortexx> most responsible people have raid in the computer case
22:37 < rtj> I was talking about the roach killing spray.
22:38 < rtj> Making a joke about bugs.
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22:45 < vortexx> and I was doing a reverse joke on that :)
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22:46 < rtj> vortexx: I thought that might be the case. I wanted to explain just in case you did not understand. I'm on the spectrum so a lot of that goes over my head sometimes.
22:47 < Matt|home> heh.. going through a nightmare security verification process for a damn voip service.. my goodness
22:47 < rtj> I'm not just saying that because it's hip now for the kids.
22:47 < rtj> That was very cleaver response. :)
22:48 < rtj> Make sure to hit the TPM chip with the raid.
22:48 < vortexx> rtj: no worries
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22:57 < sonya> Matt|home: here some folks manage to achive memory leaks from browsers.. could be a nice starting point -> craft the page which do enforce memory leak and steal credentials, for example.. then think how to attract visitors and/or infect other pages in www.. just thinking..
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23:09 < vortexx> https://http1mustdie.com/ https://portswigger.net/research/http-desync-attacks-request-smuggling-reborn tedu@ posted a flak about this today: https://flak.tedunangst.com/post/polarizing-parsers
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23:15 < byteskeptical> say three times fast: Request research reborn redux
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23:22 < darwin> upgrading to 6.7 I didn't see instructions how to diff/merge (difficult for me... still learning) so selected to later.  Where do I find the new configuration files or maybe also list what to check and do manually?
23:22 < g4rrgl3n0m4d> I like that http1mustdie
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23:24 < uwharrie> darwin: https://www.openbsd.org/faq/upgrade67.html
23:24 < darwin> thanks! :)
23:24 < uwharrie> also note that 6.7 is no longer supported
23:24 < darwin> maybe it's 7.7
23:25 < darwin> yes
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23:31 < g4rrgl3n0m4d> later cybernauts
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23:33 < darwin> i don't see any information on 77.html how to find those other than sysmerge but want to manually
23:33  * sonya is hardly thinking about akamai.. a lot to say but nothing new..
23:33 < darwin> upgrade77.html
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23:36 < uwharrie> then you'll have to manually unroll and hand apply the stuff in /var/sysmerge/ & https://cvsweb.openbsd.org/src/usr.sbin/sysmerge/sysmerge.sh?rev=1.236&content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup 
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23:37 < darwin> i see
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--- Log closed Sat Jul 26 00:00:38 2025