--- Log opened Mon Aug 18 00:00:11 2025
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00:02 < thrig> mtree is a thing
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10:10 < Old-Ben-Jabroni> ~/3
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13:45 < vortexx> seninha: did it rebuild ok?
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17:13 < njn> i know this might sound like a dumb question, but when you build a release, after installing a new kernel and make build is it automaticly upgrading the world? or do you have to actually build the sets and do an upgrade
17:14 < ssm_> ...world?
17:14 < njn> the base 
17:14 < mischief> you have to build userspace as well
17:16 < njn> i mean do you have to build the sets?
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17:18 < njn> even if its just for the system you built it on?
17:20 < mischief> no, you can skip step 4 of release(8) if you don't want to build sets
17:21 < thrig> a kernel isn't much good if it's out of sync with the base
17:22 < njn> no im building the kernel, then building. i was wondering if you had to use the sets to upgrade on the system you built it on
17:22 < njn> the rest of base*
17:25 < njn> yeah basicly im wondering if building the sets CAN be skipped.
17:25 < njn> and if ive actually updated base
17:28 < phy1729> iirc make install will overwrite the things in /{,usr/}{,s}bin but careful installing new binaries with an old kernel. If you aren't following release(8), you get to keep any pieces.
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17:29 < ssm_> build target installs as well as build iirc
17:33 < njn> i was always under the assumption that i didnt HAVE to build the sets if i didnt have multiple systems to upgrade. just the one that i built it on
17:35 < Bradipo> Why are you building a release?
17:35 < njn> well, i do have multiple systems running bsd atm
17:36 < Bradipo> Yes, but why are you not just running syspatch(8)?
17:36 < njn> plus its one and done. i dont have to manually patch one thing at a time.
17:37 < Bradipo> Again, what's wrong with syspatch(8)?  What's your goal?
17:37 < njn> not a fan of binaries?
17:37 < Bradipo> So you're thinking that you have to build your own kernel and then push that out to your multiple systems running bsd?
17:37 < njn> not just the kernel. the kernel, plus stable source.
17:38 < Bradipo> How do you intend to get "stable source" to them without sets?
17:38 < Bradipo> Building the sets is the correct way to get "stable source" to systems.
17:38 < Bradipo> Or use syspatch(8).
17:38 < njn> thats what im asking. 
17:40 < njn> after i make build the source, am i using the sets to upgrade even on the system ive built it on?
17:40 < Bradipo> How else do you propose to get "stable source" to your systems if not by building the kernel *and* the sets and then upgrading?
17:40 < Bradipo> I'm not sure about that question... it's been a long time since I actually went through release(8). :-)
17:41 < ivdsangen> i dont get whats wrong with binaries, but after "make build" the system you ran it on is upgraded
17:41 < Bradipo> I think if you follow release it will upgrade your system as you go.
17:42 < Bradipo> So you won't need to install the newly built sets on that system, but you would on the otherse.
17:42 < Bradipo> njn: If you had read the man page you would have known this.
17:42 < njn> that was the question. and i did read the man page
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17:42 < Bradipo> It clearly states at the end of step 3: "At this point, the base system is up to date with the code that will be made into a release."
17:42 < njn> the wording.
17:42 < njn> made into a release?
17:43 < Bradipo> Yep, made into something that you can ship to your other systems.
17:43 < Bradipo> That's what a release is.
17:43 < njn> so what does that mean? it actualy updated your system as it built it. or now i need to make the sets and do the upgrade with the sets
17:44 < Bradipo> Again, it clearly states "the base system is up to date with the code that will be made into a release".
17:44 < Bradipo> This means that your system is *now* running the latest.
17:45 < Bradipo> And the next step intends to make it into a release so you can release it to the public.
17:45 < Bradipo> In this case, your own systems are the "public".
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17:47 < njn> so yes i would need to build the sets and upgrade (even on what i built it on)?
17:47 < Bradipo> Why would you need to do that?
17:47 < njn> thats the question.
17:48 < Bradipo> I see no directions in release(8) for doing what you propose.
17:48 < njn> so the sets are just for convienece?
17:48 < Bradipo> If the base system is up to date, what's the point of upgrading it to the same code with which it is up to date?
17:49 < njn> of upgrading other systems you are running?
17:49 < Bradipo> The sets are for releasing.
17:49 < Bradipo> If you have more than one system, then yes, you can upgrade those other systems with the release you just produced.
17:49 < Bradipo> But do you trust your own binary release?
17:49 < njn> ive been doing it that way for ages, but i got to thinking that maybe i wasnt doing it right.
17:50 < njn> i didnt always build the sets. i skipped 4 and moved on to xenocara
17:50 < Bradipo> If you don't build the sets, how do you upgrade the other systems?
17:51 < Bradipo> You will be running mismatched code.
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17:51 < njn> im not always using openbsd on multiple systems.
17:51 < njn> at a time.
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17:51 < njn> i mean if i was i would build the sets
17:51 < Bradipo> Oh, well, if you have just 1 system, then you probably don't need to build the release.
17:52 < njn> and upgrade the other systems
17:52 < Bradipo> Unless you want some artifacts that you can put somewhere for archival purposes.
17:52 < Bradipo> If you want to reinstall for example.
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17:56 < njn> it doesnt matter what you think i should or shouldnt be doing.
17:56 < Bradipo> It doesn't matter what you do.
17:56 < njn> no shit.
17:56 < Bradipo> If it works for you, then you own it.
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17:59 < Bradipo> And as for asking questions about what you are doing, it's understandable.  For all we know, you have no clue what you're doing and aren't aware of things like syspatch(8).
17:59 < Bradipo> Some people come from build-from-scratch backgrounds with Linux and think it's the only way to operate.
17:59 < Bradipo> Because that's all they've ever known.
18:00 < njn> i do know what im doing. its a simple question.
18:00 < Bradipo> Have you not gotten the answer you seek yet?
18:01 < njn> no
18:01 < Bradipo> Seriously?
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18:01 < Bradipo> How about you scroll up a bit and read again, lol.
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18:02 < Bradipo> Around 17:51 UTC.
18:03 < njn> so, yes i need to build the sets?
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18:03 < Bradipo> I can repeat myself: " Oh, well, if you have just 1 system, then you probably don't need to build the release."
18:04 < njn> but if i was?
18:04 < Bradipo> "probably" here means that it is your business whether or not you build the release.
18:04 < Bradipo> And I gave an example reason why you *might* want to, but there's nothing that says you must.
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18:15 < njn> looking at the dates of files and folders im going to assume that during the build process it is upgrading the userland
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18:16 < fro> k
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18:18 < Bradipo> njn: Well, that's what step 3 does, yes.
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18:19 < njn>  well thank god i got my anwser. it only took an hour. a simple yes or no would have surficed
18:21 < Bradipo> You did claim at 18:00 UTC that "i do know what im doing." :-)
18:21 < fro> yeah you wasted an hour to get told the same thing it says in the man page
18:21 < fro> which you said you read
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18:22 < njn> what it says in the man page is, your now ready to build the sets
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18:23 < fro> that is not what step 3 says, no
18:23 < fro> anyway good luck
18:24 < njn> not congrats youve successfully upgraded. here are steps if you want to upgrade other systems you happen to be running.
18:24 < njn> its vauge.
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18:25 < Bradipo> release(8) isn't meant for common users.
18:25 < fro> send a patch to improve the wording
18:25 < Bradipo> But sure, the right thing here is to send in a patch if you think it can be improved.
18:26 < fro> yeah that wasn't eant to be a snarky ereply
18:26 < fro> if you really think it's vague
18:26 < ssm_> I just got here and don't want to peruse a (cited) hour of logs, what's the problem with release(8)?
18:26 < fro> apparently it's vague
18:27 < Bradipo> step 3 apparently doesn't make it clear that you are now running the code you just compiled.
18:27 < njn> the wording.
18:27 < njn> is.
18:27 < ssm_> the description of what is vague is vague :S
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18:30 < ssm_> following through step 3 builds and installs a new kernel and base system. is the vagueness that step 3 doesn't say install? it can be inferred from mentions of sysmerge, but maybe that's confusing for new users
18:30 < fro> well it isn't meant for new users
18:30 < ssm_> maybe since the build target installs, and no install target is used 
18:30 < fro> weird thing to do if you're new to openbsd
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18:32 < ssm_> I came to openbsd from a year using gentoo, so I wanted to start tinkering with base immediately. I installed the wrong bsd for that, but I ended up sticking around anyways
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18:33 < ssm_> I think I remeber being confused by the same thing, though I dug around enough and figured it out
18:33 < fro> well
18:33 < fro> again
18:33 < fro> if there are improvements to be made then suggest them
18:34 < fro> it isn't some crazy thing to suggest a wording change somewhere if it's really confusing
18:34 < Bradipo> Even before syspatch(8) the patching process avoided using release(8).
18:35 < Bradipo> You would download each patch individually and apply the patch to source and install.
18:35 < Bradipo> But that didn't mean upgrading the entire system.
18:35 < Bradipo> In fact, that still hasn't changed.
18:36 < Bradipo> If you don't want to use syspatch(8), the instructions for applying the patches are at the top of each:
18:36 < Bradipo> https://ftp.openbsd.org/pub/OpenBSD/patches/7.7/common/001_nfs.patch.sig
18:36 < njn> i do also patch release. but its just time consuming rebooting over and over after every kernel patch
18:37 < Bradipo> Notice that this is a signed patch that can be applied to a copy of the checkout of the released sources for 7.7.
18:37 < Bradipo> Each of these most likely has similar instructions: https://www.openbsd.org/errata77.html
18:38 < fro> i don't think anyone is asking for this information right now
18:38 < Bradipo> Well, I'm offering it to njn just in case he isn't aware of it.
18:38 < njn> id rather reboot once. rebuild everything in a few commands, 4 hours later im good to go. and if im running a vm or multiple systems, ill build the sets.
18:39 < Bradipo> How many times does release(8) say to reboot?
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18:40 < njn> well after the kernel rebuild i reboot.
18:40 < Bradipo> I think it's only once.  But I always like to through an additional reboot after everything is complete just to verify that everything is working.
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18:40 < Bradipo> Because it's good practice that after making major changes you reboot to verify that everything comes back up. :-)
18:41 < njn> then i build the userland, and eventually i reboot again.
18:41 < ssm_> Here's my diff attempt for release(8) https://howdoesmycode.work/tmp/32325.txt
18:41 < ivdsangen> also to make sure all services and applications are running the latest binary
18:41 < Bradipo> Better to find problems now than 1 month later when the power goes out and it doesn't come back up because something was missed.
18:41 < ssm_> patch path is wrong (lazy)
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18:45 < ssm_> 23s/and/;/ bad grammar
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18:49 < njn> maybe i should just stick to a snapshot.
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18:57 < systemdsucks> that's the not so subtle message :p
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19:50 < thrig> reboots can also help expose hardware or BIOS gaffles
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--- Log closed Tue Aug 19 00:00:12 2025