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11:16 < Michelle> any quick and easy way of telling the ports tree not to strip symbols please?
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11:19 < IcePic> you can set an ENV to that effect I think
11:20 < IcePic> not sure if each and every port will honor it, but there should be a STRIP env or something like that in the manpages for ports
11:21 < Michelle> Grok suggests 'NO_STRIP=yes' >> /etc/mk.conf ... 
11:22 < thrig> man mk.conf  might be less silly
11:22 < Michelle> I know freebsd is STRIP=no >> /etc/make.conf will do it to every port
11:24 < IcePic> and if some port demands to run a strip program, /usr/ports/infrastructure/bin/no-strip seems to be your friend
11:24 < Michelle> yup that's why i asked ... echo "DEBUG=1" >> /etc/mk.conf seems to be the go
11:24 < IcePic> the ai was wrong, so please stop feeding its output here
11:25 < Michelle> its interesting just how bad Grok seems to get OpenBSD
11:25 < sibiria> because there's not a huge amonut of openbsd food to eat on the internet
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11:33 < IcePic> "Curious how the AI is very knowlegdable about everything except the stuff I am an expert int"
11:33 < IcePic> -t 
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11:38 < Michelle> On a similar not I wish people would stop calling LLMs 'AI' .. they're not AI, they just similate it
11:38 < Michelle> damn my speeling!
11:38 < thrig> AI is perfect, given John McCarthy invented the term to get money
11:38 < sibiria> "simulated intelligence" is indeed a better description
11:38 < Michelle> On a similar note I wish people would stop calling LLMs 'AI' .. they're not AI, they just simulate it
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11:40 < IcePic> we can name them whatever, but if they give wrong results, they are worse than a thesaurus and I would wish for people here not to repeat their hallucinations, and possibly also stop interacting with them so that the companies that run them stop claiming they are useful for anything valuable
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11:43 < thrig> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03p2CADwGF8&t=2758s
11:44 < IcePic> https://cdn.bsky.app/img/feed_thumbnail/plain/did:plc:sg2e2kqdsdp2q2zl44txadbp/bafkreiahqnhkxjuk3jrqsn53cyyrz4euqdbs7bn2mz7la7cafk4mo3rytu@jpeg
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11:49 < Michelle> as some one who is dyslexic I can tell you some of them are incredibly useful - however when it comes to other things they are a total menace
11:51 < IcePic> I see it like "translate.google.com", you can feed it text, it translates from lang A to B, and if you do it several times back and forth it becomes worse every time. It's useful at a trivial level to get a hint of what a latin passage means if you don't know this language, but I would not depend on it to try to escape a turkish prison by submitting legal docs translated with it, knowing how it always 
11:52 < IcePic> gets slightly worse
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11:54 < IcePic> Res melius sonant si Latine scriptae sunt.
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12:54 < oldlaptop> Michelle: What exactly are you trying to do? I would assume you're aware of the usual way debug symbols get handled as separate packages, c.f. http://man.openbsd.org/bsd.port.mk.5#THE_DEBUG_PACKAGES_INFRASTRUCTURE ?
12:55 < oldlaptop> (A large lie machine perhaps won't make the connection from "strip" to DEBUG_PACKAGES, because the word "strip" does not occur in there, and it doesn't actually know anything.)
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13:27 < Michelle> oldlaptop, it also suggested "DEBUG_PACKAGES=any" .. however I couldn't find reference to that and coming from a FreeBSD background took the second option as the most likely
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14:11 < tk> I just wanted to ask this on a different day of the year just to see if someone has a concrete answer: Does OpenBSD pf support simultaneous bi-directional NAT?
14:14 < tk> i.e. Router between networks A and B with IP A.1 and B.1 sees a packet A.2 <lport> -> A.1 <rport> and translates it as B.1 <natlport> -> B.2 <rport> and when the reply comes from B.2 as B.2 <rport> -> B.1 <natlport> the router translates it back to A.1 <rport> -> A.2 <lport>
14:14 < tk> I tried to get this working but, while I could get the packets to translate correctly on the incoming side, pf just ate them on the way back out.
14:14 < tk> (s/incoming/A to B/)
14:15 < tk> The alternative to this is to have a server which listens on A.1 <rport> and for each connection, establishes one to B.2 <rport> and forwards the traffic both ways.
14:16 < tk> (As in, it produces the same effect)
14:17 < IcePic> tk: why does the translation has to include the source ip/port ?
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14:18 < IcePic> otherwise it sounds like normal pf binat if A and B have equal sized networks
14:18 < tk> Because A.2's default gateway is not A.1
14:18 < tk> sorry, I mean B.2's default gateway is not B.1
14:18 < tk> and B.2 has a different route to A.2 than via B.1
14:19 < tk> and A represents the entire internet, and B shouldn't be funnelling all its internet traffic through B.1
14:19 < tk> I am aware of the alternative options, but I am specifically asking about this case. It's exotic but it's not _that_ exotic.
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14:20 < tk> let's just assume I've considered all other options and they aren't appropriate in this case
14:21 < IcePic> my guess is that the binat state table or the nat-to states don't run in nice chains (especially backwards) to unwind double trickery
14:22 < IcePic> .oO( make the inner protocol ipv6 and have B.2 route all v6 via B.1 )
14:23 < IcePic> no, you might end up with either a bunch of nc/socat or relayd in tcp mode
14:24 < IcePic> if its TLS over at B.2 an stunnel-daemon on A would work
14:24 < tk> I want to expose a wireguard endpoint to the internet via a (another) wireguard mesh network
14:24 < tk> so actually it's even worse, it's udp
14:25 < tk> alternatively I have a wireguard-over-wireguard connection from A.1/B.1 to B.2 but then I have a different set of routing problems to deal with
14:26 < tk> I mean it's wireguard-over-wireguard either way
14:26 < tk> But there's no particularly neat way of handling this
14:26 < tk> hmm... actually there is a slightly less dumb way of doing it...
14:27 < lts> udp over udp should be quite painless. Remember to reduce the MTU of the inner tunnel
14:28 < IcePic> if the B host can have an extra range (C) for wg termination, you could probably mark incoming packets and let host B send C-sourced packets only via A. Is host B also openbsd?
14:29 < tk> B.2 is also openbsd
14:31 < IcePic> one could possibly make a vlan between A and B, then tag all incoming packets on host B on that vlan interface, and set those to reply-to to go via host A outwards
14:31 < IcePic> route-to, or reply-to, can't remember
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15:40 < tk> hmm, what about divert? couldn't I use it to implement this with some code?
15:41 < tk> seems like a bit of a sledgehammer approach
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22:00 -!- Old-Ben-1abroni [~oldben@user/Old-Ben-Jabroni] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
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22:18 < emmanuelux> hello
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23:50 < elarks> Yes hello
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--- Log closed Fri Sep 05 00:00:36 2025