--- Log opened Mon Sep 08 00:00:40 2025
00:03 < ssm_> I was hoping this was dead in the water after them fucking off misc@ for a couple months. very real and good fork by well intentioned agreeable individuals https://lwn.net/Articles/1024771/
00:03 < ssm_> them using bot code indicates some priorities
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00:17 < tvtoon> interesting commit history, changes the right things at least
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00:19 < tvtoon> C99 style doesn't make any sense though
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01:26 < MrHAPPY> b.ini ?
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06:03 < trucy> woo! I think I've managed to update the kbd file for the bépo layout!
06:04 < IcePic> always fun to succeed in improving your own experience
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06:47 < quinq> trucy, could you share? :)
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06:51 < Posterdati> hi
06:51 < Posterdati> we are about to get one fresh 7.8 soon
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06:57 < trucy> quinq: when I'm on my computer and have a couple of minutes, sure! I also plan to send the diff for integration
06:58 < quinq> Thanks trucy, of course there's no hurry :)
06:59 < trucy> are you a bépoète too? :D
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07:24 < librecat> it seems like openbsd makes for an amazing router?
07:24 < librecat> there seems to be official guide on making a router
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07:36 < IcePic> librecat: depends on what your idea of "amazing" is, but yes, many people tend to like the ease of using pf for firewalling and the way commands look the same after 20 years as something to be valued for long-term things like network equipment
07:39 < IcePic> for some, amazing means "100Gbit/s performance" and obsd is not there yet. But for routing and protecting your regular networks, it is awesome
07:39 < librecat> i dont need performance
07:39 < librecat> just some security for routing the isp pppoe line
07:41 < sonya> hello.. could someone say/estimate when to expect PQ in libressl?  thanks.. https://www.openssh.com/pq.html
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07:47 < IcePic> sonya: libcrypto imported mlkem from BoringSSL via beck@ in late 2024
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07:48 < sonya> IcePic, thanks, guess i'd better check it ..
07:48 < IcePic> then again, not long ago (Aug 14) this commit said: "Add a reasonable ML-KEM API for public use."
07:49 < IcePic> so it might not have been super visible before then, so by 7.8 it should probably have a decent note in the release info
07:49 < sonya> IcePic, i see nothing in mans (7.7)
07:50 < sonya> no mention of anything KEM related
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07:53 < sonya> and this: $ openssl genpkey -algorithm mlkem1024 -out ~/test.out  -->> Algorithm mlkem1024 not found
07:53 < sonya> so..
07:55 < quinq> trucy, yep (bépo base + slight modifs + custom level3)
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08:20 < CosmicDJ> sonya: the PQ stuff is used for key exchange and not for private/public keys
08:22 < IcePic> and I think only the library api exposes it, not the command line tool
08:25 < sibiria> librecat: imo you'll be very happy with openbsd then
08:26 < librecat> i decided on a different approach to openbsd nas than i said yesterday because i dont want to buy hardware right now
08:26 < sibiria> and network i/o is shaping up the last couple of years. saturating 1 and even 2.5 gbps on "lame" low-power hardware is possible now
08:26 < librecat> usb drive as os install, 1tb nvme from my main machine formatted as ext2 as pool
08:28 < librecat> not much problem with ffs2 either
08:28 < librecat> it can be experimentally written to from linux
08:28 < librecat> only the subpartition stuff is not recognized
08:29 < sibiria> if that usb drive is flash, it's gonna get painful on occasions
08:30 < sibiria> if usb-sata it'll be just fine
08:30 < librecat> usb stick
08:30 < sibiria> or usb-nvme, etc.
08:30 < librecat> not sata or nvme
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08:31 < sibiria> they're awful for anything that does a lot of small write operations. if it's a longer such procedure it's gonna choke at some point
08:32 < sibiria> openbsd relinking its own kernel is one of those cases of loads-of-small-write-operations
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08:37 < CosmicDJ> sonya: you see nothing in mans because it's brand new https://github.com/openbsd/src/blob/master/lib/libcrypto/mlkem/mlkem.c, either use -current or wait for the next release
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09:08 < sonya> CosmicDJ, thanks.. the example above ($ openssl genpkey -algorithm mlkem1024) is a test case, to show that algo is absent.. guess better is to go to the point, as $ openssl list-cipher-algorithms | grep -i kem ..
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09:22 < sonya> or $ openssl  list-public-key-algorithms | grep -i kem , as it's for openssl-3.5.* -> $ openssl list -public-key-algorithms | grep -i kem
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09:26 < sibiria> there's years and years to go before you have to worry about host/client keys not being PQ
09:26 < sibiria> we're not even close to rsa2048 being an actual substantial weakness
09:29 < sonya> testcases mostly for now.. evaluation and so on..
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09:30 < librecat> how can i bindmount some folder of the storage pool to a home folder
09:30 < librecat> in fstab
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10:02 < librecat> does openbsd have bind mounts
10:05 < vortexx> librecat: as far as I know it doesn't, nothing in man mount compared to a linux man mount
10:05 < vortexx> you'd have to use nfs to achieve that
10:07 < mischief> the storage pool *is* the home folder, comrade
10:09 < librecat> true that is what i did in the end too lol
10:09 < librecat> i didnt know openbsd was this easy to make a nas out of
10:09 < librecat> everything done already
10:09 < librecat> i have a html viewer using httpd
10:09 < librecat> gitea
10:09 < librecat> and ftp server
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10:48 < quinq> Also /usr/(share/relink/) ;p
10:50 < librecat> yeah that too right
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12:59 < trucy> quinq: https://privatebin.net/?073bec2b0381b326#EYLzsPZq27HdZxLvtGocAgpW6ukj23aQr6RjRGe271yn I decline any responsibility if it accidently works :) (I haven’t thouroughly tested it, and I want to add more characters in the comments before submitting)
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13:04 < quinq> Of course, thank you :)
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13:05 < trucy> and if you code a lot, be careful of the 1.1rc2 update: ’ is the default apostrophe, the straight one (') is altgr+,
13:06 < trucy> I don’t know if it’s 
13:06 < trucy> worth having a bepo-alt variant with the straight apostrophe at its usual spot
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13:07 < quinq> Here's mine, in case you're interested: https://clbin.com/rmjSe
13:11 < trucy> oh wow, having the numbers like a numpad has energy, do you use an ortholinear keyboard?
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13:15 < quinq> Na, regular laptop keyboard (mostly)
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13:24  * oldlaptop irritably grumbles about how you do know you pasted the private key in an IRC channel with over 700 nicks in it, right?
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13:27 < trucy> so only about 0,00001 % of the population :D
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13:54 < oldlaptop> that attitude towards security/secrecy is in some tension with "I must require everybody to allow javascript to read my super secret pastebin"
13:57 < quinq> s/allow/execute/
13:57 < oldlaptop> Any other copyedits you'd like to make?
13:57 < oldlaptop> I did forget to capitalize the sentence and add a period at the end.
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14:06 < sibiria> yes: s/execute/venerate and idolize, and twixt careless invocations ere long succumb to/
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14:37 < quinq> oldlaptop, na, otherwise I'd just have done it ;)
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15:32 < trucy> eh, if it was really secret 1) it would'n't have been mentioned here 2)we'd be using assymetric encryption
15:33 < trucy> and when I'm done with that, hopefully it'll be pushed in the obsd cvs
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16:44 < Bradipo> trucy: If what were really secret?
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18:36 < remiliascarlet> PostgreSQL has been upgraded through pkg_add -ui, which renders it to no longer be able to run PostgreSQL. The database was initialized with version 16, and version currently running is 17.5. Online I found that in order to upgrade databases I need to have binaries for both version 16 and 17, but the package manager only supplies version 17.
18:36 < remiliascarlet> Anyone knows how to fix this?
18:36 < Bradipo> That's odd.
18:36 < Bradipo> I wonder why they would do a major upgrade without warning about data migration.
18:36 < Bradipo> You should have first exported your database and then upgraded, and then reimported I think.
18:37 < remiliascarlet> I can't reverse time.
18:37 < Bradipo> Nope.
18:37 < Bradipo> So you'll have to build PostgreSQL 16 from ports and install.
18:37 < Bradipo> Or some such.
18:37 < remiliascarlet> I already tried, but it gives compile errors.
18:38 < Bradipo> Was this an upgrade on -stable?
18:39 < remiliascarlet> No, -release.
18:39 < Bradipo> So you upgraded OpenBSD?
18:39 < Bradipo> Because 7.7 doesn't have differening versions of PostgreSQL between release and stable.
18:40 < remiliascarlet> I upgraded back in May, but I had to reboot the server a few hours ago, which is when I first started noticing the problem.
18:41 < Bradipo> OpenBSD 7.6 had PostgreSQL 16, and OBSD 7.7 has PostgreSQL 17.  https://www.openbsd.org/faq/upgrade77.html
18:41 < Bradipo> The upgrade notes do mention that you need to use pg_upgrade first.
18:41 < remiliascarlet> I rebooted the router, and for some reason I also had to reboot all my FreeBSD and OpenBSD servers or they wouldn't connect to the internet. The Linux and Windows servers didn't need a reboot strangely enough.
18:42 < Bradipo> You could perhaps install 7.6 to a temporary device, copy your data to it, then run dump and then copy to your new 7.7 and restore?
18:42 < sibiria> that's the usual with postgres majors. you gotta run both version during the upgrade. it's quite messy compared to mariadb/mysql but those are the breaks
18:42 < Bradipo> I never run both versions, I just dump the DB and then restore it after upgrade.
18:42 < remiliascarlet> I prefer MariaDB or SQLite, but so many Fediverse servers use PostgreSQL as the only option, which sucks.
18:43 < sibiria> Bradipo: right. that's not doable in a "live" environment
18:43 < Bradipo> Unless you have a maintenance window. :-)
18:43 < Bradipo> But yeah, for 100% always on "live", I guess that's what needs to be done.
18:43 < remiliascarlet> I will try to install OpenBSD 7.6 in a virtual machine, and upgrade it from there then.
18:44 < remiliascarlet> However, what should go first? Upgrade to OpenBSD 7.7, or upgrade to PostgreSQL 17?
18:44 < Bradipo> I actually prefer PostgreSQL for RDBMS over MariaDB.
18:44 < Bradipo> I would no bother upgrading your 7.6
18:45 < Bradipo> Just install 7.6, put your PostgreSQL 16 DB on it, and then dump.
18:45 < Bradipo> Then you can restore to your 7.7 system that already has PostgreSQL 17 on it.
18:45 < sibiria> yeah at this point i'd just dump and restore
18:45 < remiliascarlet> Ah, I see.
18:45 < thrig> or have an A/B pair of databasen
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18:45 < sibiria> databasii
18:47 < remiliascarlet> I recently got to love SQLite a lot. You just embed that thing into your codebase, compile, and it'll have the entire database in a single file. Or multiple files if you wish to do so.
18:47 < Bradipo> SQLite is great if all you need is a replacement for fopen(3).
18:48 < sibiria> we use it as a fast near-transparent middleware between ingests and production database, to let APIs respond and process even if the DB goes down
18:49 < sibiria> (also a big fan of)
18:49 < sibiria> of it*
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18:51 < oldlaptop> Goes great with postgres, too.
18:54 < oldlaptop> remiliascarlet: https://openports.pl/path/databases/postgresql-previous
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18:55 < Bradipo> I have a SQLite DB that has close to 30 million rows (and growing).  It does seem to struggle the first time I query it for some reason.
18:55 < thrig> bring out your database! *clang* bring out your database!
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19:26 < vortexx> remiliascarlet: /usr/local/share/doc/pkg-readmes/postgresql-server shows you can upgrade the db from the new version.
19:27 < vortexx> I have run into this problem myself before, it works usually
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19:31 < vortexx> (I use postgresql for nextcloud + zabbix server)
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19:46 < remiliascarlet> oldlaptop: My here! ♡
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19:47 < remiliascarlet> I can't believe it took an entire night to upgrade PostgreSQL. What an absolute clusterfuck of terrible design choices!
19:47 < trucy> whoa, tōhō reference
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19:58 < mischief> is there a prompt that is portable between bash and ksh in the form `\u@\h:\w\$ ` ?
20:01 < shtrophic> I'm trying to install clangd
20:01 < shtrophic> is it available in ports? or anywhere else?
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20:02 < remiliascarlet> mischief: Not sure what that is, but if you make your scripts in SH syntax and usr /bin/sh, it'll work on all OS's (except for Windows and FreeDOS).
20:02 < shtrophic> clang-tools-extra
20:03 < mischief> thanks for not answering my question
20:03 < Bradipo> remiliascarlet: That's a PS1 prompt.
20:03 < Bradipo> e.g. PS1='\u@\h:\w\$ '
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20:03 < remiliascarlet> Bradipo: I grew up with the N64 instead.
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20:10 < uzuri> not 1 new pkg update in the new snapshot, usually theres always a ton
20:10 < uzuri> is this same for anyone else or did i brick sth
20:11 < uzuri> join linux
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20:11 < Bradipo> You'll have to wait patiently for someone who runs snapshots to answer.
20:11 < Bradipo> But you should be able to at least look at the mirror.
20:12 < pardis> there are no packages "in" a snapshot
20:12 < pardis> there are base snapshots, and package snapshots, which are updated independently
20:12 < Bradipo> See what I mean, I don't run snapshots. :-)
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20:12 < humm> mischief: I believe both let you put parameter and command expansions in the prompt: PS1='$PWD\$ '
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20:13 < mischief> the tricky part is getting the s/$HOME/~/ behavior out of the working directory in the prompt
20:13 < mischief> though i now realize i am working with mirbsd korn shell and not openbsd's, so ignore me
20:14 < Bradipo> I used to think that was nifty... now I cannot stand a prompt that ends up being 100 characters long because I cd'd to some directory that has a long path.
20:15 < Bradipo> I normally know what directory I'm in anyway.
20:15 < Bradipo> And if I forget, there's always pwd.
20:15 < pardis> for me that's a reminder to clean up my directory structure
20:15 < pardis> there's no good reason for a path to be that long in the first place
20:15 < Bradipo> Sometimes you don't have control over that...
20:15 < TommyC> some shells also have an option to show the last 2 or so directories
20:16 < mischief> i agree but i was trying to keep the existing behavior on a system here (not openbsd)
20:17 < uzuri> are people running snapshots (as daily driver on desktop) a minority? doesnt feel sane to run a 6 month old version of chromium
20:17 < mischief> we're trying to remove bash, and my pick for replacement was ksh (mirbsd ksh)
20:17 < mischief> might say sod it and just do some condition behavior based on the shell version
20:17 < humm> pardis: there’s situations where for good reasons you have long hashes in a path
20:18 < Bradipo> ESXi volumes for example end up being /vmfs/volumes/<guid> and then tack on the user@host and you end up with a huge path.
20:18 < Bradipo> Not quite 100 characters, but at least 60--70.
20:19 < Bradipo> uzuri: Running the latest doesn't always necessarily mean the most secure.
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20:21 < Bradipo> And if the web has come to such a point where you must always have the 100% latest version of a web browser to allow you to access certain websites, then I don't know what to say.
20:21 < Bradipo> Shame on those webmasters.
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20:24 < uzuri> Bradipo security is subjective, and id obviously never run a headless server on current, but this doesnt apply to only browsers.
20:24 < uzuri> but yeah, shame on those webmasters
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20:25 < humm> and shame on those browser devs that enabled and enable those webmasters
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20:27 < uzuri> curl is the only sane browser these days
20:27 < uzuri> i wish all sites were html only
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20:27 < trucy> even better: plain text with minimal markup
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20:28 < uzuri> wait you can build websites without html?
20:28 < humm> you can distribute whatever you want over http
20:29 < uzuri> im no webdev, thought html was bare minimum
20:29 < uzuri> cool though
20:29 < humm> including text/plain, pdfs, arbitrary xml with associated css, arbitrary xml with associated xslt transforming it to html
20:29 < Bradipo> Well, what's your definintion of "website"?
20:29 < uzuri> keeping that in mind
20:29 < Bradipo> You can easily publish text/plain content over HTTP.
20:30 < humm> anyway, plain text with minimal markup is what html once was
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20:32 < uzuri> Bradipo: A document on the World Wide Web, consisting of a hypertext file and any related files for scripts and graphics, and often hyperlinked to other documents on the Web
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20:32 < uzuri> well thats the definition of a webpage, a website is a collection of those on the same server
20:32 < humm> and if your html (with xml syntax, even) is well-written, it can very much be readable as text
20:32 < Bradipo> Well, you can do "web" with any client that is prepared to interpret the contents in a given way.
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20:33 < uzuri> humm do you know any exapmples of that which i could look at, making me curious
20:33 < Bradipo> You would have to write your own.
20:33 < Bradipo> That's my point.
20:33 < Bradipo> You can have a client interpret the data in any way you want.
20:33 < Bradipo> It's a bit of reinventing the wheel I suppose.
20:34 < humm> uzuri: any hand-written html for pages not using css, really
20:34 < humm> https://skarnet.org/
20:35 < humm> the OpenBSD site, even
20:35 < uzuri> yeah this is what i had in mind
20:35 < uzuri> wish everything was like that
20:36 < uzuri> becasue those sites are so so fast and efficient
20:36 < Bradipo> http://cr.yp.to/
20:36 < uzuri> and you wouldnt need more than lynx for that, which is awesome
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--- Log closed Tue Sep 09 00:00:41 2025