--- Log opened Wed Sep 10 00:00:43 2025
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00:28 < humm> UNI-VGA
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00:29 < humm> https://www.inp.nsk.su/~bolkhov/files/fonts/univga/index.html
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01:00 < chaselp> woo
01:01 < chaselp> glad I put OpenBSD on this computer!
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02:35 < zwr> I just use Apple fonts. They're really good.
02:37 < zwr> I wrote a program to get them from Apple's website https://github.com/guijan/dl-applefonts/
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03:43 < ssm_> when it comes to fonts, what greatly improved my readability was adding XTerm*scaleHeight: 1.3 to my Xresources. example here: https://howdoesmycode.work/tmp/29967.png
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04:14 < byteskeptical> oldlaptop: how are you specifying the truetype interpreter version? env variable? Do you use the old v35 liberation fonts or the what's inclued in base (not sure if they are v40 or not)
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04:17 < oldlaptop> There's some environment variable buried somewhere in freetype documentation. I just build with the config option set appropriately. 'v35' and 'v40' refer to freetype's hinting engines, not any particular font (although what I care about is very specifically how well v35 renders the DejaVu fonts with full hinting, in contrast to how well v40 doesn't.)
04:20 < oldlaptop> http://freetype.org/freetype2/docs/hinting/subpixel-hinting.html describes the v40 hinter (which seems almost entirely concerned with how well fonts I don't happend to care about, namely fonts that aren't named DejaVu Serif or DejaVu Sans Mono, are rendered)
04:21 < oldlaptop> If you care about those other fonts, and not those two, maybe you want the new one anyway. (ugh)
04:21 < oldlaptop> ("give your brain some time to adjust" still makes me unreasonably angry almost ten years later)
04:24 < oldlaptop> I have no idea where in the API reference (IIRC) the environment variable is documented. It is IIRC unreliable anyway, things like chrome will foul up the environment for whatever process actually renders fonts. The diff I apply is to undefine TT_CONFIG_OPTION_SUBPIXEL_HINTING in https://cvsweb.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/xenocara/lib/freetype/include/freetype/config/ftoption.h?rev=1.31&content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup
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04:43 < byteskeptical> oldlaptop: yeah ok, lol wtf now I'm angry this is so much better
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04:45 < byteskeptical> for anyone interested you can use: export FREETYPE_PROPERTIES="truetype:interpreter-version=35"
04:45 < oldlaptop> I would imagine the default is better for Microsoft fonts, or overall performance with random fonts on hiDPI, or something.
04:46 < oldlaptop> DejaVu happen to have (apparently!) very good "old-fashioned" manual hinting, and if for some reason you only care about how they render, and nothing else...
04:47 < oldlaptop> (with DPI low enough that it matters)
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04:49 < byteskeptical> I'm shocked and chagrined, yeah that makes sense, though I feel like this bit of knowledge needs to be deciminated way more. I'm on a hiDPI screen right now and it looks way better especially at hintfull. Thanks for heads up.
04:51  * oldlaptop is surprised it matters at all
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04:51 < oldlaptop> I care about the relatively fine details of how it renders in the pixel grid, especially at sizes (9pt for DejaVu Sans Mono) where pretty much all features are about 1px wide (with full hinting).
04:53 < oldlaptop> v35 with full hinting looks sharp and crisp, with stems carefully centered on actual pixels; v40 will do things like smear the legs of 'm' on the boundary between two pixels
04:53 < oldlaptop> on a hiDPI display none of that would matter, everything would be multiple pixels wide at legible sizes
04:54 < byteskeptical> as am i. yeah gives a nice cohesion between external monitors that are not hiDPI and my laptops main display that is.
04:54 < oldlaptop> 9pt at 96DPI I should say.
04:55 < byteskeptical> will try thanks
04:56 < oldlaptop> Most stuff on the Internet about "the one trick to make fonts look good" (especially about "Infinality") is going to be more along the lines of the v40 engine, trying to behave like Windows with ClearType on.
04:58  * oldlaptop infers from this that "make DejaVu Serif and DejaVu Sans Mono look as sharp as possible, all other fonts are irrelevant" is not actually a very common set of priorities
04:59 < byteskeptical> it does seem so
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06:05 < chaselp> Does urxvt terminal use the XTerm* options, like scaleHeight? I had setup other xterm options before I installed urxvt and they didn't do anything, I have to look at the man for options if there is a scaleheight, I don't remember one
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06:11 < chaselp> don't see it. I like the way the terminal is looking though
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06:36 < chaselp> muahaha
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06:41 < chaselp> the openbsd artwork is amazing
06:45 < IcePic> "Packets only coming through in waves.
06:45 < IcePic> Your lips move but broken audio mutes what you're saying."
06:46 < IcePic> lyrics for the release songs are fun too.
06:46 < chaselp> I just finished listening to The Wizard and the Fish
06:47 < rtj> ^m^
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06:52 < chaselp> I am having a good time o_O
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07:15 < chaselp> I disagree with the indentation though. Indents should be 2 spaces
07:16 < chaselp> 80 cols: agree
07:17 < chaselp> my vim sets noexpandtab if there is a majority of lines starting with tabs than spaces... so I can work on others' files, at least then my shiftwidth is respected.
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07:19 < chaselp> use 2 spaces or tabs and I'm fine :)\
07:19 < chaselp> single-tabs
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08:09 < chaselp> minimum .vimrc: https://paste.gentoo.zip/8xkLLtSs
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09:00 < ssm_> oldlaptop: <on a hiDPI display ...> on hidpi I just disable hinting entirely
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15:29 < vortexx> I've been using xv to set backgrounds on *nix since the 90s. It's one of the bundled utils in AMIX 2.1 which allows for 8bit background, rather cool
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18:54 < uzuri> good evening, anyone else got issues with upgrading to next snapshot? since all the *78.tgz sets appeared today morning, 7.8 release is getting close
18:55 < fro> haven't tried yet
18:55 < fro> maybe just wait until the next one
18:55 < uzuri> but when i want to upgrade, it aborts because it cant find xbase77.tgz
18:56 < uzuri> which is not making sense to me, since all the other 78 sets are installed and xbase78.tgz is of course also in the mirror, so im confused why it tries to find the old one
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19:04 < humm> uzuri: sysupgrade -s
19:05 < uzuri> humm what do you mean?
19:05 < fro> they're already doing that
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19:06 < uwharrie> what's your installurl?
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19:06 < uzuri> the default cdn one, as its the only one with the 78 sets
19:07 < uzuri> cloudflare mirror has them too, but i get TLS handshake error on that and only on that mirror for some reason
19:07 < uwharrie> CDNs and snapshots don't mix well at all
19:07 < uzuri> wym
19:08 < sibiria> the CDNs are hit-or-miss when it comes to having recent updates
19:08 < uzuri> cdn mirror is always the most recent one
19:08 < uzuri> of all
19:08 < uwharrie> lots of issues with people getting views into the snapshot dir that aren't completely synced
19:08 < uwharrie> no it isn't
19:08 < uzuri> youre speaking of https://cdn.openbsd.org/ ?
19:08 < uwharrie> yes
19:08 < uzuri> is is always the first one
19:08 < uzuri> as it is right now
19:08 < uzuri> you can check
19:08 < fro> yeah people notoriously have problems with them
19:08 < fro> in any case
19:09 < uwharrie> that doesn't mean it works well
19:09 < fro> wait
19:09 < fro> for
19:09 < fro> another
19:09 < fro> snapshot
19:09 < sibiria> ftp.openbsd.org is the first one to get stuff
19:09 < sibiria> CDN = you never know what you're gonna get
19:09 < uzuri> why??
19:09 < uzuri> never had any issues until now
19:10 < sibiria> because it takes a while for stuff to proliferate to all the mirrors, and CDN = random mirror
19:10 < uwharrie> Issues are fairly common, especially around release times and certain CDNs are worse than others about caching old stuff and giving mixed views of the directory
19:10 < uwharrie> the CDNs are really only recommended for releases
19:12 < uzuri> great
19:13 < uzuri> good that this is documented somewhere
19:13 < uzuri> not
19:13 < Bradipo> If only DNS allowed for things like snaps.cdn.openbsd.org and stable.cdn.openbsd.org...
19:13 < sibiria> ok, but surely nothing except obstinacy prevents you from just changing your installurl
19:14 < uzuri> sibiria, of course not
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19:15 < phy1729> Bradipo: how would that change anything?
19:15 < uzuri> just think that this is something worth mentioning in the following -current faq page, installurl manpage or mirror list as a sidenote
19:17 < uzuri> tried to upgrade rn again, with the ftp mirror, but still aborting because of missing xbase77.tgz
19:17 < uzuri> guess i just have to wait until tomorrow
19:17 < vortexx> uzuri: current.html doesn't get the updates it used to, for some $dev (if not $theo) reason. The reason a lot of us are here is to help people through release bumps
19:17 < Bradipo> phy1729: Ok, you're right, snaps might be too opaque.  Make it snapshots.cdn.openbsd.org.
19:18 < phy1729> That doesn't change how a CDN works
19:18 < Bradipo> No, it doesn't.
19:18 < vortexx> uzuri: try and find a mirror with base78.tgz then point installurl to it and use that for now, you can always change back later
19:19 < vortexx> https://cvsweb.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/etc/root/root.mail and yes we're in 7.8 -beta now
19:19 < uzuri> vortexx why isnt current.html getting updates anymore
19:19 < uzuri> i thought man pages/faq quality was a priority
19:19 < fro> it does
19:19 < fro> right around release time
19:19 < vortexx> it's just a lot more minimal than before
19:20 < fro> haha
19:20 < vortexx> mainly stuff that'll break if running -current
19:20 < vortexx> (use webarchive if you want to compare how big a page it was 10 years ago)
19:20 < uzuri> why would they remove information that doesnt make sense
19:20 < uzuri> now i have to find out things like that in an irc channel
19:20 < vortexx> too many tech@ questions generated I guess
19:21 < uzuri> also why isnt the ftp mirror the default, if cdn causes such frequent issues
19:22 < uwharrie> because the CDN makes sense for releases and if you're on snapshots, it's assumed you can figure out what's going on
19:22 < cgnarne> uzuri: snaps are not a priority
19:22 < uzuri> i see
19:23 < uzuri> so new people following snaps just have to be lucky with having the right guy in irc online to figure it out
19:23 < uwharrie> not really
19:24 < uzuri> where else is this information available if they removed it from their site
19:24 < cgnarne> if you are dogfooding snapshots you are expected to be aware of sharp edges
19:24 < uwharrie> primarily the mailing lists
19:26 < uzuri> cgnarne how does one get aware of sharp edges
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19:28 < uwharrie> develop on the system, follow the mailing lists
19:29 < uzuri> i miss the arch wiki
19:29 < vortexx> historically ftp.openbsd.org was the topmost server and got hammered too much, thus the need for CDNs
19:29 < uzuri> vortexx, that makes a lot of sense
19:30 < uzuri> thank you
19:30 < vortexx> (it wasn't much hw either, mirrors existed for a reason)
19:30 < vortexx> you're welcome uzuri 
19:30 < pardis> "new people following snaps" is nonsensical
19:30 < pardis> following snapshots is for users who know what they are doing, not new users
19:30 < vortexx> only people coming from gentoo would go straight to snapshots I reckon
19:31 < uzuri> i kinda prefer using programs without ative CVEs, if you can get that
19:31 < vortexx> well -stable works better for that
19:31 < cgnarne> uzuri: the way™ to use OpenBSD is run a release. there's no good reason to be in snaps tbh
19:31 < vortexx> syspatch will keep you happy
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19:32 < uzuri> im not happy with 6 month old ungoogled-chromium or tor browser :(
19:32 < cgnarne> then OpenBSD May Not be for you
19:32 < vortexx> (and neither sysupgrade or syspatch are considered "historic" tools, they're not even 10 years old)
19:33 < vortexx> uzuri: if there aren't CVEs then you're fine
19:33 < uzuri> cgnarne, im quite happy with snaps ngl
19:33 < uwharrie> this is a system by developers that caters to other developers. there may be other uses, but they're not a primary focus, so no one bothers with the docs needed by non-dev/technical users
19:34 < uzuri> yeah i noticed that haha
19:34 < cgnarne> uzuri: then you have to accept all that comes with using snaps. no complaining
19:35 < cgnarne> tbh. i found OpenBSD to be much easier to use than most supposedly user friendly linux distros
19:36 < uzuri> true, i guess its a good learning exercise to try understand it as a non-dev
19:36 < sibiria> snapshots = you will be dogfooding openbsd
19:36 < sibiria> buckle up
19:37 < uzuri> been like 2 months and havent noticed any bugs
19:37 < uzuri> gulp
19:37 < ssm_> snapshot experience is packages constantly falling out of sync with base libs, meaning you'll be rebooting constantly or you need to get intimate with ports(7), and preferrably dpb(1) and proot(1)
19:38 < ssm_> I have a set of wrapper scripts for these tools I'll be publishing soon(tm)
19:38 < uzuri> i usually upgrade to the newest snapshots as quickly as possible, and update all pkgs after that. never had any issues with pkgs breaking, only one time where i waited a biit to long to upgrade to the next one
19:39 < Bradipo> Well, now you know.
19:39 < uzuri> ssm_ i'll be looking forward to check out your scrips, do you have a github?
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19:39 < ssm_> no, I host my own gotwebd cgi server
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19:40 < uzuri> damn, no need to flex like that haha
19:40 < ssm_> it's really not that hard
19:41 < uwharrie> the opaque FILE change is still generating noise from people running snaps not following along with development work
19:41 < ssm_> uwharrie: I am uninitiated, what is this?
19:41 < uzuri> yeah, please elaborate
19:42 < uwharrie> https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=175277808500517&w=2 https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=175608676104216&w=2 
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19:56 < ssm_> oh so it's for modern c++ support
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19:59 < tux0r> "modern" "c++" should be an illegal phrase
19:59 < thrig> "akira statium scene" c++
19:59 < thrig> staduim
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20:01 < sibiria> i wrote some stuff in c++ once and then i suffered uninhibited rapid cell division
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20:04 < uwharrie> not sure what it has to do with C++, but the project has been working to make C data structures opaque for a while now
20:05 < Bradipo> What project?  The C++ project?
20:05 < uwharrie> oh, the undeadly link was about fixing C++ after it was broken by the opaque FILE change
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20:07 < uwharrie> I'd posted some mailing list links to things being broken in snaps by https://undeadly.org/cgi?action=article;sid=20250717103345 and a later message mentioned C++
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--- Log closed Thu Sep 11 00:00:44 2025