--- Log opened Sat Sep 20 00:00:57 2025
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00:16 < johnzlly> maybe when the val not set in login.conf,then use the value of sysctl's value. 
00:17 < johnzlly> oh,i'm wrong.
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00:29 < ssm_> :? and ? parameter substitutions throw the error message, but aren't exiting ksh. manual says it should exit. tried -e flag, shell still doesn't exit. reproduce with echo ${a?}
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00:30 < ssm_> bash doesn't exit either, so I guess this is correct? is the manpage wrong?
00:31 < ssm_> -s/manual/sh(1)/
00:33 < ssm_> ksh(1) indicates it should "normally cause[ing] termination of a shell script" as well
00:34 < buinb> worksforme
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00:35 < ssm_> must be something borked in my env then...
00:35 < johnzlly> worksforme too
00:36 < buinb> https://clbin.com/cHioI
00:37 < ssm_> vi /tmp/test.sh
00:37 < ssm_> whoops wrong terminal
00:37 < buinb> :)
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00:39 < ssm_> hmm, your script works as intended, now I'm confused
00:41 < ssm_> oh I see my "bug", I'm forking with & so the fg shell keeps running
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02:05 < thrig> other surprise!! sources of forks are such things as while loops
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11:30 < uzuri> even in the openssl crypto lib theres no serpent or argon2id
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11:33 < uzuri> thats quite the bummer for an OS with strong cryptography as one of its core values :/
11:34 < sibiria> openssl can do argon2
11:34 < sibiria> not sure if it was hauled into libressl
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11:35 < sibiria> unless you permit users to go with memorable passphrases, blowfish will be secure when peppered
11:36 < sibiria> and if you enforce secure random passwords, a single round of sha256 with a unique salt is secure
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11:44 < oldlaptop> something something something quantum?
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11:50 < sibiria> something something we won't have enough electrical energy the coming 50 years to poke around in a 128 bit space
11:51 < sibiria> we *might* have quant computers within 50 years that can reduce sha256 to effectively half. but that's just one hurdle along the way. energy is the other
11:53 < uzuri> in the crypto manpage theres no word of argon2 letalone argon2id i could find
11:53 < uzuri> and ya i know myself that quantum blah blah is just fearmongering
11:54 < uzuri> im not thaaaat uneducated in cryptography
11:54 < sibiria> openssl's support for argon2 family is relatively new, so not entirely surprised that libressl may not have it yet
11:54 < uzuri> all i want is my drives to be encrypted with serpent 512 and im happy
11:55 < uzuri> sibiria yeah openssl was just an example its not something for filesystem encryption anyways
11:55 < sibiria> perhaps veracrypt can help?
11:55 < sibiria> if it can use external openssl
11:57 < uzuri> hm
11:57 < uzuri> does veracrypt support ffs lets see
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12:01 < uzuri> not really
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12:20 < oldlaptop> But what about the quantum? I keep hearing that the quantum is better.
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16:08 < Bradipo> Is there anything in base for burning an ISO to optical disk?
16:08 < Bradipo> I there is mkhybrid for making ISO images.
16:08 < IcePic> cdrecord or mkisofs?
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16:08 < Bradipo> In base?
16:08 < Bradipo> I suppose one could juse use dd...
16:09 < IcePic> cdio
16:09 < IcePic> in tao mode
16:09 < Bradipo> Ahh, yes, cdio.  I had forgotten that it had tao.
16:10 < Bradipo> Looks like that's for burning tracks...
16:10 < Bradipo> Does it take an ISO that has been created with mkhybrid though.
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16:28 < byteskeptical> Bradipo: mkhybrid -r -no-emul-boot -b 7.7/amd64/cdbr -c boot.catalog -o openbsd.iso ./OpenBSD
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16:29 < byteskeptical> Bradipo: then just: https://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq4.html#MkInsMedia
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16:32 < rrhylx> Hi everyone :). I would like to ask about the following configuration: internet -> vps -> LAN . If the connection from the vps to the LAN is done through a wireguard tunnel, I would like to know if you consider that it is mandatory to route communications from the vps to services hosted on LAN behind tls? I will certainly setup ssl between a client
16:32 < rrhylx> coming from the internet to my vps. What are you thoughts/ recommendations?
16:33 < byteskeptical> this actually looks more complete if this is for openbsd: https://github.com/tbaumgard/openbsd-custom-image/blob/master/build66.sh
16:35 < oldlaptop> rrhylx: Supposing everything on the LAN is trusted, I don't see how tls does anything genuinely useful.
16:36 < oldlaptop> It's very likely (perhaps not certain) that an adversary that can break wireguard can also break TLS.
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16:36 < byteskeptical> rrhylx: if your sending LAN traffic over the tunnel it will be encrypted by your vpn connection. The answer to your LAN tls question should be irrespective of whether it goes over a vpn
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16:37 < oldlaptop> If it's possible that there are untrusted nodes on the LAN, that might change things. (Perhaps "guest" wi-fi, or perhaps you consider wi-fi in general to be a vulnerability.)
16:37 < oldlaptop> That's still fairly far-fetched, but much less so than an adversary that is (a) able to break wireguard, (b) interested enough in rrhylx, Random Internet Person, to bother, and (c) somehow not also able to break tls
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16:39 < rrhylx> yes. I completely agree with your pov oldlaptop. I just was a bit scared about the vps provider.
16:39 < oldlaptop> if anything, the reverse is more likely: $ALPHABET_SOUP uses their shiny new quantum computers to decrypt and mass-surveil all the TLS traffic they've captured in the last 20 years, but don't bother to do the same with wireguard because it's orders of magnitude less traffic.
16:40 < oldlaptop> If you don't trust the VPS, that's a problem, and I don't see how extra layers of redundant encryption between it and you do anything to help it.
16:41 < phy1729> If the TLS isn't terminated on the VPS, it'd help
16:41 < rrhylx> I don't really know if I trust the VPS. It was just that it is the only thing I don't really have under control.
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16:42 < oldlaptop> phy1729: indeed - but then I would begin to wonder why you don't just move the wireguard endpoint
16:42 < rrhylx> I'm not sure if traffic arriving through tls and then leaving through wireguard could be intercepted by the vps provider?
16:43 < oldlaptop> If the VPS is running the wireguard node, or the TLS node, that traffic (axiomatically) can't be intercepted outside of the VPS except by a successful attack on wireguard, or TLS.
16:45 < oldlaptop> If the VPS provider is untrusted, they can use their physical access to the hardware it is running on to obtain the information the VPS has decrypted, no matter how many layers of encryption it had.
16:45 < rrhylx> yes I agree. But what about the vps. I guess that every vps provider can have access to any of the machine they are hosting isn't it?
16:45 < byteskeptical> and you can add an wgpsk key for each connection
16:45 < oldlaptop> (If the information the VPS decrypted is still just TLS ciphertext, then that's no real use to them, hence the "if the TLS isn't terminated on the VPS")
16:46 < rrhylx> byteskeptical, yep I have done that
16:46 < oldlaptop> That has nothing to do with anything particular to TLS or wireguard, or wrapping one inside the other.
16:48 < oldlaptop> (I shouldn't even qualify that with "if they're untrusted" - they still have the technical capability to do that, if they want it, whether you trust them not to do that, or trust them not to abuse the information no matter how they get it, is another question)
16:49 < rrhylx> oldlaptop, yep I know, hence my initial question regarding my actual setup. Theoretically, the only point that I am a bit afraid of is at the vps, because if forward the traffic through http, then at some point the vps has to decipher the incoming TLS and then send it though wireguard.
16:49 < rrhylx> oldlaptop yes, I agree that not involving trust is best
16:53 < rrhylx> So I guess that the conclusion is that I should encrypt tls from end to end?
16:54 < oldlaptop> Your question implies (?) that the VPS is one of the ends.
16:54 < oldlaptop> If that is so, extra layers of encryption are irrelevant.
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16:54 < rrhylx> no, I meant from the client on the internet to the machine that hosts the service on LAN
16:55 < oldlaptop> Ah.
16:55 < rrhylx> so that if the provider wants to access to the traffic it needs to break tls
16:56 < rrhylx> otherwise in the transaction from tls to wireguard there is a point on the vps where the traffic is clear, or am I missing something?
16:56 < oldlaptop> I suppose TLS makes sense then - but so in principle does not bothering with wireguard at all (as opposed to an unencrypted tunnel - which could carry wireguard instead of TLS!)
16:56 < oldlaptop> Maybe wireguard is faster and easier than some kind of unencrypted tunnel anyway, of course.
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17:00 < rrhylx> yes, I find wireguard pretty convenient to use.
17:01 < rrhylx> Okok. Thank you very much for your help.
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17:13 < rrhylx> Also, I have seen in the manual of relayd.conf, that there is an example of an ssh relay. Right now I just have a pf rdr-to rule. The man page says that: "The TCP nodelay option will allow a “smooth” SSH session without delays between keystrokes or displayed output on the terminal". Would you then recommend to redirect the ssh traffic with
17:13 < rrhylx> relayd instead of pf?
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17:25 < byteskeptical> no
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17:28 < thrig> relayd with ssh might be handy if there's a cluster of systems being ssh'd to
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17:37 < rrhylx> ok, so for one ssh connection it won't be helpful.
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18:09 < IcePic> I'm not sure, but if you ask relayd to make tcp redirects, it might just be telling pf to do it anyhow
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18:16 < rrhylx> yep. It is just that I can feel that the ssh connection is a bit slower, but it might just be linked to the fact that the vps is based in the US and that the ssh server and myself are in europe.
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18:25 < xse> mosh might feel more responsive
18:25 < byteskeptical> pf will always have better packet routing performance if nothing else because of its deeper kernel integration.
18:26 < byteskeptical> and that it will get the traffic first
18:29 < IcePic> yeah, mosh is great for latency connections
18:31 < byteskeptical> I would sooner play with ssh config options like ControlMaster, VerifyHostKeyDNS, among others. If the latency really is that big of an issue just use a wireguard connection
18:32 < IcePic> if you bounce over the atlantic, latencies are going to be noticeable
18:33 < byteskeptical> inevitably sure
18:33 < IcePic> not arguing against wg, its super, but wg is to other vpns, like mosh is to ssh
18:35 < sibiria> latency like that can make you skittish. i have a weird case where TLS connections initiated from a VPS i manage for someone, in france, take several seconds to complete. initiating the same handshake to the same place, but from anywhere else, completes in under a second as is customary. real head-scratcher
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18:36 < sibiria> it's to the point where i'm not entirely sure that french sigint isn't trying/analyzing something. the VPS in question isn't entirely unburdened
18:36 < sibiria> is entirely*
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18:36 < byteskeptical> sibiria: not saying this is the situation in your case but I have also experience this behavior with keys that have excessive rounds for the hardware that has to decrypt them.
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18:37 < sibiria> rsa2048, protocol is https. this does not take 4 seconds
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18:38 < oldlaptop> <rrhylx> yep. It is just that I can feel that the ssh connection is a bit slower, but it might just be linked to the fact that the vps is based in the US and that the ssh server and myself are in europe.
18:38 < oldlaptop> Depending on the situation, your perception is not necessarily to be trusted (as to performance/latency)
18:39 < byteskeptical> try it, ssh-keygen -a (default is 16 so 32 vs 64) -t rsa
18:39 < oldlaptop> but then again if your perception is the only thing that really matters, and a 'placebo' can improve that...
18:39 < byteskeptical> ^ fair enough
18:40 < oldlaptop> (and I completely believe that latency matters - but it's also easy for ugly bags of mostly water to delude themselves about)
18:40 < byteskeptical> sibiria: key size doesn't matter
18:41 < byteskeptical> for this behavior to manifest not in general
18:41 < sibiria> i'm not sure why you're on about ssh, if you're responding to me? also, signature and verification performance with both rsa and ecdsa/ecdh is wholly affected by key size
18:43 < sibiria> these are TLS handshakes. ssh-keygen's "rounds" setting is also for encrypting and decrypting password-protected ssh keys. has nothing to do with RSA keys used for http over TLS
18:43 < byteskeptical> sibiria: yes but only because I read your original message incorrectly
18:43 < sibiria> ok
18:43 < byteskeptical> someone missed the big TLS
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19:01 < rrhylx> Okok. Thanks xse and IcePic, I will try mosh. In the end I plan to take another vps provider. Do you have any opinion on ovh?
19:02 < sibiria> they're affordable. their ip ranges are pretty dirty and more or less impossible to use them for mail server purposes. other than that they have improved on their old rumor of being a "ghetto" provider with grossly over-committed servers
19:03 < sibiria> scaleway, hetzner and vultr are also very affordable
19:04 < rrhylx> I'm using vultr rn.
19:05 < rrhylx> But since for now I'm in Europe, I find it a bit stupid to redirect all my traffic to the US (I'm also scared about latency for the services that I will host)
19:06 < mischief> doesnt vultr have datacenters in europe
19:06 < sibiria> they do
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19:07 < rrhylx> Oh. In that case I might just migrate to europe :D
19:08 < rrhylx> And concerning vultr how are their ip ranges ?
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19:12 < sibiria> i have no idea, i haven't used vultr in a decade
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19:23 < oldlaptop> rrhylx: I have used vultr for probably ten years or more; few complaints, but I can't comment on mail hosting.
19:24 < oldlaptop> Sometimes web traffic proxied through the IP gets misidentified as evil robots, but not always. (I only did that frequently back before the apocalyptic LLM crawler plague, so maybe that's worse now.)
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19:29 < oldlaptop> Their OpenBSD images used to suck, probably still do - better to install your own.
19:29 < oldlaptop> (one-big-/ until wxallowed, then they reluctantly added a /usr/local)
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19:49 < rrhylx> Ok. Thanks oldlaptop.
19:49 < rrhylx> Concerning bandwith, in 10 years you have no complaints?
19:50 < oldlaptop> If you are not aware of openbsd.amsterdam you should be
19:50 < oldlaptop> I don't have bandwidth complaints, but I am not a heavy user in that respect.
19:50 < oldlaptop> It sysupgrades plenty fast.
19:51 < rrhylx> I wasn't aware of openbsd.amsterdam. Thanks for that. I will give it a look :)
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20:09 < rrhylx> oldlaptop, do you have a vm at openbsd.amsterdam?
20:10 < oldlaptop> I do not.
20:10 < oldlaptop> (I keep meaning to change that one of these years.)
20:15 < rrhylx> to move from vultr to that?
20:20 < rrhylx> anyways. I find the concept pretty cool.
20:34 < LibreBSD> I just got Half-Life working on my system. 
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20:48 < sibiria> it's a great tech demo/trial for openbsd's hypervisor, though quite limited and expensive for what it provides
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20:48 < sibiria> opinionated sponsorship for a good cause
20:49 < oldlaptop> yes, not all of "what it provides" is the VM-as-a-service part
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21:15 < rrhylx> the most interesting for me is this page: https://openbsd.amsterdam/runs.html
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23:17 < radhitya> LibreBSD: \o/
23:17 < radhitya> do you have a screenshot?
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23:26 < LibreBSD> radhitya: https://librelife.org/images/hl/half-life2.png
23:26 < LibreBSD> https://librelife.org/images/hl/half-life1.jpg
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23:28 < LibreBSD> It's not emulated, it's compiled naively https://github.com/osen/openhl
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23:46 < radhitya> Wow.. good
23:46 < radhitya> how the perfomance?
23:46 < radhitya> is really weird to see 49 fps for old game under thinkpad t420
23:46 < radhitya> it's
23:54 < lusciouslover> so im in openbsd on an x220 but dont have an ethernet cable around to get the firmware needed to get wifi running, so the openbsd faq says i can just put the firmware on a usb and then use fw_update -p with the path to get it, but which firmware am i intended to install? http://firmware.openbsd.org/firmware/7.7/
23:55 < lusciouslover> i assume it must be one of the intel ones
23:55 < oldlaptop> You would need to find out which device you have; that will show up in both dmesg(8) and ifconfig(8) output.
23:56 < oldlaptop> The network interface will be named after its driver, and that driver will itself have a manual page that will tell you if firmware is needed.
23:57 < oldlaptop> (The firmware packages are generally also named after drivers they're meant to work with; e.g. iwm(4) is the driver for certain Intel wifi devices, and works with iwm-firmware.)
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--- Log closed Sun Sep 21 00:00:58 2025