--- Log opened Tue Sep 23 00:00:01 2025
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00:10 < avih> Hi. I'm trying to figure out whether OpenBSD 5.5 (from 2014) source files exists in some commit on the github mirror - https://github.com/openbsd/src and I'm having some troubles. I notice that sys/conf/newvers.sh changes between releases, and I can identify the commit where it changes to 5.5-current (b67dc666a0 on 2014-03-05), and when it changes to 5.6-beta (1fc12403bd on 2014-07-16)
00:11 < ssm_> xse: <there's so much knobs nowadays> you talking about the browser, or...? Jokes aside, I wouldn't even be considering this if AIbro scrapers didn't make the web unusable on lynx and friends. I hope some major hoster is logging bot IPs for distribution so we can stop using the nuclear solution alltogether (anubis)
00:11 < avih> but i'm not sure where the 5.5 release is (e.g. which was distributed as tarball at the OpenBSD servers). or maybe it's not in any commit, because it's branched with some changes?
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00:13 < avih> for instance, at the file sys/conf/newvers.sh it suggests that in a release STATUS is empty (neither beta not current), but I don't think there's such state between these two commits, and the github OpenBSD src mirror doesn't have any tags or branches. so maybe the exact release is just not on github?
00:16 < avih> regardless of github, i'd appreciate if someone could help or point me to some resources on how the STATUS in sys/conf/newvers.sh is updated.
00:16 < emmanuelux> "short receive (0/4) from nfs server 192.168.0.3:/srv/nfs", do I care of this, i have no see pb with nfs, is it caused to different version of nfs between openbsd and linux ?
00:17 < avih> (but still if someone can help me pinpoint the 5.5 release on github, it would be very appreciated)
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00:19 < xse> ssm_: setting up firefox yeah, and over time there's new features that you have to keep up with just to be able to disable em. I did not look into the whole gemini thing but that sounds appealing
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00:20 < xse> avih: i would assume it's https://github.com/openbsd/src/commit/af0b5e0720025249ee48c3497c724c60535a285a
00:20 < avih> thanks. looking into.
00:24 < avih> xse: right, indeed that's where STATUS becomes empty. Thanks. However, between this commit and b67dc666a0 ("We are now 5.5-current") 12 days later, there are nearly 140 commits. do you know which one is the release?
00:25 < avih> i.e. there are about 130+ commit where STATUS is empty, how can one tell from which one, if at all, the tarball was generated?
00:28 < avih> (other than trying to get the tarball and compare the files inside it to identify the commit - the 5.5 tarballs are apparently not on the main openbsd server, but I did find them elsewhere - https://ftp.eu.openbsd.org/pub/OpenBSD/5.5/ )
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00:29 < avih> hmm.. their date is 2014-03-05, which is roughly right after STATUS changed to empty...
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00:30 < avih> xse: do you know maybe of some resource which explains how is status updated, and what it means?
00:30 < xse> no clue when exactly releases are made like that, comparing files sounds like a lot of work but indeed you might be able to narrow it
00:31 < xse> i mean a release has no -something
00:31 < avih> yeah, comparing is not fun and i did not intend to do that, and the tarball date does narrow it down, though it doesn't pinpoint it...
00:32 < avih> xse: yeah, but there are 130+ commits where STATUS is not "...-<something>"
00:32 < avih> starting at the one you found, and ending 12 days later in "we are now 5.5-current".
00:34 < avih> and these commits are actual changes and fixes, not some bookkeeping stuff.
00:37 < xse> if you can find the cvs src tarball of that same release you might be able to get the last cvs modification from that tarball and match that to a git commit
00:38 < xse> not 100% sure but i would assume that src.tar.gz is the src that made that release
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00:41 < avih> yeah, same, and i did get it, but not sure what to look at to identify the exact commit. also, i'm suspecting, but don't know for sure, that the src mirror on github was scratched at some stage, and re-created with a different or newer cvs client or cvs2git script, so i can see some diffs at the cvs version thingies (first line of a file, etc), between the tarball and the github files from these commits
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00:43 < avih> completely unrelated, do you guys have plans to move away from cvs?
00:43 < xse> ouch i don't know then :/
00:44 < avih> i'm so not going to compare the tarball content to different git snapshots... :)
00:45 < xse> no clue about devs moving away from cvs either, there's https://gameoftrees.org/faq.html#replacecvs but heh
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00:46 < pardis> this is an unofficial user support channel, so anyone planning to replace CVS is very unlikely to be here
00:46 < pardis> but my understanding is that the answer to that is "no"
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00:47 < avih> heh, first time i hear of "got" :)
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00:48 < avih> the cvs was just an unrelated thing, i don't have plans to peruse it. was just wondering.
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00:48 < pardis> you probably do want to use CVS if you want an easy way to get the source for OpenBSD 5.5
00:49 < pardis> otherwise you will have to work out yourself which git commit corresponds to the point in time when the CVS tag was created
00:49 < tvtoon> hum, src.tar.gz is the source for releases, what got on 5.5?
00:49 < avih> i can get the sources - it was distributed as tarball, and i do have it. what i'm trying to do is identify a commit on the github mirror which matches it best
00:50 < pardis> if I had to do that for some reason, I would probably bisect it, checking each commit along the way to see if that change exists in 5.5
00:50 < pardis> easier than comparing the entire contents of every commit
00:51 < avih> yeah, i thought of bisecting either, it's just painful, and i don't have an obvious way to automate it quickly, so i'd just check commits and whether they're applied or not to the official tarball. but i prefer not to get there...
00:51 < avih> s/either/too/
00:51 < pardis> what is the goal? why do you want this information?
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00:52 < pardis> if you don't want to spend 10-15 minutes bisecting 140 or so commits, I assume you can't want to know all that much
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00:53 < tvtoon> or you can just read the ChangeLog...
00:53 < avih> tvtoon: where is this changelog? in the tarball? i don't think i identified any file which speaks of the release.
00:54 < avih> pardis: good question, complex answer. and i suspect it would take more than 10 mins, but less than an hour, and i've already spent way more than that so far. it's an option, just one i prefer to avoid
00:54 < tvtoon> it is on the site, for every release there is a big one
00:55 < avih> right, i've seen those, but how would that help me pinpoint a commit on the guthub mirror?
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00:56 < pardis> if you really want to automate the bisect, why not run something like 'git show | patch' and 'git show | patch -R' on the tarball and see which one succeeds? that should tell you if the change is present or not in the source tarball
00:56 < tvtoon> OBSD still praised for keeping every little change under the radar, if you compare older versions to 5.5 you can look for a feature or whatever you want
00:56 < tvtoon> either that or diff them yourself like that
00:58 < avih> pardis: i think you're right, and it should be possible to automate it this way, up to the cvs lines (first line of files, and few more in the middle, like auto dates in some docs), which seem different, and i suspect because the github mirror was re-created at some stage from scratch.
01:00 < avih> tvtoon: at least for me, the changelog at the website is too coarse to use in order to pinpoint a release, and not all commits show up at the changelog. but i do have the tarball, and i do have the github mirror cloned, so it should be possible, if the release is indeed there.
01:02 < avih> xse: what does VER-current STATUS represent? it's no longer empty, but i don't know what "-current" represents.
01:03 < avih> i'm guessing it means "changes which are made after VER towards the next version"?
01:03 < pardis> yes
01:04 < pardis> the release cycle goes 5.5 -> 5.5-current -> 5.6-beta -> 5.6 -> 5.6-current -> etc...
01:04 < avih> yeah, i know the states, just not what each one represents. i see it's documented that empty is release, but there are 130+ of those in a row...
01:06 < avih> actually, I think, from the data I have so far, that it's 7d6b1621b64, which is the same date as the tarball, and once commit before "We are now 5.5-current".
01:06 < avih> s/once/one/
01:10 < avih> and this commit is indeed already applied to the tarball, while in the next commit it's already towards 5.6, so if it's at the git mirror, it has to be 7d6b1621b64 as far as I can tell.
01:10 < avih> much appreciate the help people!
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01:12 < avih> (I tested arbitrarily that the changes of 7d6b1621b64 are applied to etc/etc.i386/Makefile.inc at the tarball - and they are)
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01:18 < avih> pardis: do you know what is the logic behind naming of X-current as describing the changes after X and towards Y? wouldn't it be more useful if it was something like Y-initial or some such, before it becomes Y-beta?
01:18 < pardis> that's just the historical convention in all the BSDs
01:18 < pardis> have you actually used BSD?
01:18 < avih> not as a daily driver, but yes
01:19 < xse> some things must be lost in translation between cvs and git, git does not seem to get the tags/branches thing
01:20 < avih> xse: yeah, i'm guessing it's a cvs2git issue of some sort. i'm sure it can be done, but apparently it doesn't happen with the openbsd src mirror
01:20 < avih> in fact, i know it can be done, because i've imported some project from cvs to git on my own some time ago.
01:22 < avih> (upstream mtools is cvs, and i wanted to work with git, so i imported so that it's easier for me to work with it locally, and had to learn how and what can be done, but it was long ago so i didn't recall that initially)
01:23 < avih> (i didn't push from git to cvs, only used it to generate patches which i then submitted)
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01:54 < avih> hmm... "got" seems interesting. looks like it's an alternative/simplified git client, with compatible repo format. it's quite smaller, the potable tarball is 1.5M. but the faq explicitly refuses to say why it's developed, which is unfortunate. i can imagine many reasons to develop another client, and also many reasons not to. a shame the devs don't share their reasons.
01:56 < avih> i can understand licensing as reason which i can't argue with, but beyond that, i think all reasons are arguable.
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01:59 < avih> ironic that the link to the repository shows 500-server error... https://gameoftrees.org/releases/changes.html
02:00 < fro> what's ironic about it?
02:01 < avih> that the repository browser of a version control system is broken...
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02:02 < avih> i.e. that it can't even handle its own repo.
02:02 < avih> (not necessarily, there could be million reasons, but it is ironic)
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02:03 < fro> more like a coincidence
02:06 < avih> sure, but i found it amusing.
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02:12 < pardis> reading between the lines, I'd say the reason got was developed was in the hope (by some developers) of replacing CVS
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02:19 < avih> yeah, that i assumed as well, but why not use git if it's intended to be compatible with it
02:20 < pardis> because GPL'd code cannot be imported into OpenBSD
02:20 < pardis> also because Theo does not like git
02:21 < avih> right. as i said, i can understand licensing as reason.
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02:26 < oldlaptop> <avih> ironic that the link to the repository shows 500-server error... https://gameoftrees.org/releases/changes.html
02:26 < oldlaptop> *any* kind of self-hosted repo browser is in trouble these days
02:26 < oldlaptop> cvsweb.openbsd.org had its turn with the AI crawlbots a month or three ago
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02:27 < avih> oh hello :) yeah, it's hard to fight those, but i was still amused :)
02:27 < oldlaptop> https://gameoftrees.org/code.html the long list of mirrors would be diagnostic even without "Some of these require a login due to excessive crawling by bots."
02:29 < avih> i'm quite sure it is able to handle it own repo, just to be clear, but you can't argue the irony :)
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05:22 < rrhylx>  Do you think that I can try to contact the people who wrote relayd to ask them about that specific point?
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10:06 < avih> So, in my quest to identify the commit on the github mirror which matches the openbsd 5.5 release tarball, i concluded that it's almost certainly 7d6b1621b64 . after cloning the mirror from github and comparing this commit with the 5.5 tarball content, i'm identifying two anomalies:
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10:08 < avih> 1. some automatic cvs values (i think), but not all, are different, for instance, the file lib/libpcap/CHANGES in the tarball has a 3rd line of:
10:08 < avih> @(#) $Header: /var/www/space/cvs/src/lib/libpcap/CHANGES,v 1.6 <....>
10:08 < avih> while the one from the github mirror has a different path prefix, with the rest of the line being identical:
10:09 < avih> @(#) $Header: /home/cvs/src/lib/libpcap/CHANGES,v 1.6 <....>
10:09 < avih> so i attribute these differences to different cvs2git script, or that it was checked out a bit differently. i can filter these changes out, so not really in issue.
10:12 < avih> the second issue is that github has some files which are missing from the tarball, and there are about 1500 of those, for instance usr.bin/mg exists in both the tarball and the github mirror, but github also has a file usr.bin/bg/util.c while the tarball doesn't have it, and i cannot figure that out.
10:12 < avih> s/bg/mg/
10:13 < avih> the git history of usr.bin/mg/utils.c shows that it was there since the initial mg commit in 2000 "initial import of mg2a"
10:14 < avih> and there are more things in the github repo at this commit which are missing, like many files in lib/libcrypto, and more. anyone has an idea what's going on there?
10:15 < avih> (i did compare the dir, if we ignore the cvs2git changes and the missing files, then all the source are identical)
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10:19 < avih> would anyone be able to check in cvs whether the 5.5 release contain the file usr.bin/mg/util.c or one of the many missing crypto files, for instance lib/libcrypto/Makefile ?
10:19 < IcePic> cvs2git isn't 100%, so some things can certainly have fallen through the cracks in that conversion
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10:20 < sibiria> can't you download the sources for 5.5 from one of the FTP servers instead?
10:20 < avih> sibiria: i can, and i have. these files exist at the github mirror but not in the release tarball...
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10:20 < avih> and i'm trying to figure out what's going on here
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10:21 < IcePic> mg/util.c appeared some 25 years ago
10:21 < IcePic> I just don't think it was tagged for each release. 
10:21 < IcePic> https://cvsweb.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/usr.bin/mg/util.c?rev=1.1&content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup
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10:23 < avih> for reference, this is the tarball i'm comparing https://ftp.eu.openbsd.org/pub/OpenBSD/5.5/src.tar.gz (sys.tar.gc exists too), and this is the files in the github mirror at what i'm fairly convinced is the 5.5 release commit: https://github.com/openbsd/src/tree/7d6b1621b645c374dd66f5d9946ee5dc6bb5b1a9
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10:24 < avih> the mirror has usr.bin/mg/util.c, but the tarball doesn't
10:25 < avih> IcePic: thanks. what does "it was not tagged" mean? (i'm not a cvs expert)
10:26 < avih> presumably it means something like "it exists, but was not marked as part of the release", right? in that case, is the tarball broken because it accidentally was not tagged? or is the github mirror having redundant files due to cvs2git issues, or maybe something else?
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10:28 < avih> i.e. is this file actually required for mg in 5.5?
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10:31 < avih> IcePic: also, since some of the auto-cvs values are different, i'm suspecting that the mirror was scratched at some stage, and re-created with a newer/different cvs2git script or config, so maybe one of the the tarball is indeed broken, but the "new" mirror has that fixed?
10:37 < avih> for reference, these are the files which exist at the mirror but missing at the tarball: https://0x0.st/KA0s.txt
10:38 < avih> other than the missing files, and ignoring the auto-cvs values, all files are identical.
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10:44 < avih> seems that the vast majority of the missing files are in lib/libcrypto and lib/libssl
10:47 < sibiria> **NSA NOISES**
10:48 < avih> ?
10:50 < mischief> your welrod is showing
10:51 < avih> so if i interpret that correctly, then usr.bin/mg/util.c is indeed not part of 5.5 in cvs https://cvsweb.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/usr.bin/mg/?only_with_tag=OPENBSD_5_5
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10:52 < avih> is this correct?
10:54 < avih> should i chalk it off as bad cvs to git conversion?
10:54  * sibiria pops his trenchcoat collars and withdraws into the shadows
10:54 < sibiria> i suppose you could
10:55 < sibiria> cvs is after all the de facto source
10:55 < sibiria> gut feeling is that the current codeberg situation would show the same dispairt
10:55 < IcePic> avih: I think it means "it did not warrant getting tagged" for some reason that may be cvs/rcs specific
10:55 < sibiria> disparity*
10:55 < avih> sibiria: i guess. in such case, maybe someone should know about this mirror issue?
10:56 < avih> i.e. so that they can fix it, assuming such issues still exists today - which i didn't check
10:56 < sibiria> to me that sounds like something that should be fixed, yes
10:57 < pardis> I don't think it is bad cvs to git conversion
10:57 < pardis> that file existed in CVS, it just wasn't tagged for 5.5
10:58 < avih> I'll try to check whether the same issue exists at the codeberg middor. i didn't realize it also has a mirror.
10:58 < avih> mirror*
10:59 < pardis> you're unlikely to find anything since the issue is probably not with the git conversion, but with the CVS tagging
10:59 < avih> pardis: actually, you're right. tags are not exported to the mirror, so what we get there is trunk. and i fount the commit where the tag was created, but it didn't "take with it" these files, so this explains the diffs, right?
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10:59 < avih> found*
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11:00 < pardis> yes, that seems obvious to me
11:00 < avih> thanks, much appreciated. it sounds obvious to me too, but only after you said it :) thanks
11:01 < sibiria> so a lack of protocol, then
11:01 < IcePic> git and rcs have different ideas of what a tag and a branch is
11:01 < avih> you mean about exporting tags/branches to the mirror?
11:02 < avih> wait, is that rcs, or cvs?
11:02 < sibiria> <de raadt, theo> we're at 5.5, i'll tag later, after i've finished this elk jerky sandwich
11:02 < IcePic> cvs is a wrapper over rcs
11:02 < avih> i know that cvs/git have different concepts, but it's still possible to export tags/branches from cvs to git. i've done that myself, but it's not for the faint of heart.
11:02 < IcePic> rcs is a per-file versioning system, and cvs tries to make you see tons of rcs files as a "repo"
11:04 < avih> thanks, i did have a vague hunch that it's some mixed rcs/cvs thing. the files meta data (first line etc) suggests it's rcs, but it's accessed via a cvs interface...
11:05 < avih> (and i didn't know that rcs is per file. interesting)
11:08 < avih> IcePic: so all those $Header, $Id and others, are these rcs or cvs things?
11:08 < IcePic> rcs I think
11:08 < avih> that was my hunch as well, thanks. so under the hood rcs still lives today in openbsd?
11:09 < IcePic> yes
11:09 < avih> interesting. thanks.
11:09 < IcePic> "man rcs" talks about $...$ stiff
11:09 < IcePic> stuff*
11:09 < avih> yeah, didn't do that :)
11:10 < avih> and do current openbsd devs deal only with cvs? or do they needs rcs installed locally too in some way?
11:10 < IcePic> only via cvs
11:11 < avih> right, so the rcs thing is some behind the hood thing of the cvs server?
11:11 < IcePic> yes
11:11 < avih> cool. appreciate the info. today i learned few things :)
11:12 < IcePic> so when its time to do tagging, its "hands-off" for all devs, since its not atomic for cvs to rcs-tag each file
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11:12 < avih> i get the point but can't say i followed the details :)
11:13 < IcePic> basically making a tag via cvs is a simple command, but that in turn will be more or less "find . -type f -exec rcstag {}" so it will be bad if someone commits while the find-exec is running
11:14 < avih> gotcha. and yes, i did get the gist of it :)
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11:15 < avih> i don't envy the maintainers of the versioning system...
11:15 < IcePic> this may explain got development
11:15 < avih> yeah
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11:17 < avih> i did use cvs and svn when they were prominent (more svn than cvs), and mercurial too, when i worked for mozilla, and at least for me personally, git beats all of them by huge margins.
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11:19 < avih> it's just so amazingly powerful. i didn't check what got intentionally prefer to not implement, but i imagine it does get much of the advantage which git has over the other systems.
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11:21 < avih> i hope for the bsd people that they can make the switch. i think it can be a huge win.
11:21 < avih> openbsd*
11:21 < IcePic> got is like svn with a git engine
11:21 < IcePic> so you are still meant to make checkouts and work from those
11:22 < avih> really? well, for me the git value is more about having the whole history locally, so i don't need the server to check how the code looked 20 years ago...
11:23 < avih> does local got "instance" have all the history, which can be interacted with via the got client?
11:23 < IcePic> then again, for me needing to checkout gcc-for-avr on my arduino dev station, I really dont care about how gcc-1 worked for hp300 machines in 1979 or whatever, I'd be happy to get a shallow tag or latest and run with that
11:24 < IcePic> on got, you interact with a git-compatible repo, so that will have all the history.
11:24 < IcePic> you just dont "code" inside of it
11:25 < avih> how is it different than git?
11:25 < avih> i.e. what's the "like svn" part mean?
11:25 < mischief> with anything git or git like you can't ever not have local history, or at least some of it
11:25 < IcePic> that the repo is not the place where you edit files
11:25 < mischief> i keep meaning to look at got, pijul and jujutsu
11:26 < IcePic> "the repo" means .. the dir you did "git clone" into which is a full copy of all history ever and the current state at the same time
11:26 < IcePic> for git, it sucks if someone manages to commit an ISO file, even if you remove it 10s later. Everyone is going to suffer for all time
11:27 < avih> well, there are ways to prune stuff in git, which admittedly i didn't play much with, but if i need less history, or to use less bandwidth during clone, then indeed i do a shallow clone of some N recent commits, so that i can still see recent history, but i don't care about 20 years ago
11:27 < IcePic> for cvs/svn/got the repo can still retain the history of that cursed ISO, but checkouts done 12s after will not have to DL it
11:28 < IcePic> and yeah, there are shallow options, but then you have to figure "should I have 20 last versions of util.c that almost never changes or just 'all revs of util.c in the last 3 months' or .."
11:28 < avih> well, nothing is perfect :)
11:29 < avih> and care is always needed whatever system is used...
11:29 < pardis> personally, I hope for the BSD people that they can continue working on making the system better without being harassed about the revision control system
11:29 < IcePic> obviously not everything is perfect, its just that while git is being super popular, other systems have other choices that may make sense for users accustomed to it
11:30 < mischief> isn't cvs basically 'what if i shallow cloned this HEAD at depth 1' of git?
11:30 < mischief> not sure how got can avoid that situation if the object is referred to in the tree you ask for from the server
11:30 < avih> mischief: sounds about right to me
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11:31 < avih> pardis: aye, but if you take a wider look, then you can't ignore the revolution of git which made it (relatively) much easier to contribute. at least IMHO
11:31 < mischief> just wait till you have a 6GB repo of binary firmware files and 60k tags
11:31 < mischief> then the fun begins
11:32 < pardis> that's overstating the case somewhat
11:32 < pardis> git made certain workflows easier, that's all
11:32 < pardis> most happen to be workflows not applicable to OpenBSD development
11:32 < avih> mischief: yup...
11:32 < pardis> in fact, one of Theo's reasons for not liking git is that it makes bad workflows too easy
11:34 < mischief> it's a somewhat laudable idea but nothing stops Theo or anyone else from writing smack in reply to changes on the ml like they already do today to reject changes.
11:34 < avih> i think it's a preference issue, and also suitability for the task, and i don't know whether the devs want that or not, i think it's easier to contribute to a git repo than cvs. i.e., maybe using git would make it more accessible to new contributors, which i have to guess the openbsd devs are not against...
11:35 < mischief> many projects have existed for over a decade with (git) patches on an ml and have completely sane history
11:36 < pardis> indeed, I'm not arguing against git, just against git evangelism
11:36 < avih> i've not evangelized it. all those are completely personal opinions.
11:37 < mischief> i'm not saying openbsd should switch, just that the git is not really a problem in most cases. dumb things could be done with svn or cvs too.
11:37 < pardis> mischief: I think we're basically agreeing
11:37 < mischief> hell, i actually hate reading the openbsd cvs log. it feels very unorderly to me
11:38 < avih> for me, the ease in which i can clone a completely arbitrary project, and start hacking on it few seconds later, or explore its history without any server, is just amazingly powerful.
11:38 < avih> i.e. in git.
11:39 < avih> it makes it so much easier to start hack it, and, if the time is right, submit changes to upstream.
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11:42 < mischief> huh. seems we're coming up on an anniversary soon
11:42 < mischief> prepare the beer kegs
11:42 < avih> i'm not familiar with the openbsd development model, but at least with git, it's not uncommon for some random person to send a PR to some project, and it happens all the time, because it's easy, and this makes it powerful, because it makes it easy for new contributors to start contributing to projects
11:42 < mischief> mischief@beast:~/src/openbsd $ git log -n1 df930be708|cat
11:42 < mischief> commit df930be708d50e9715f173caa26ffe1b7599b157
11:42 < mischief> Author: deraadt <deraadt@openbsd.org>
11:42 < mischief> Date:   Wed Oct 18 08:37:01 1995 +0000
11:42 < mischief>     initial import of NetBSD tree
11:43 < avih> :)
11:43 < IcePic> "just start hack on it" is what I go with git clones, then after the fact I realize I should have made a personal clone of it, and a branch in that one, and then started fixing the broken Makefiles or spelling errors.
11:43 < avih> :)
11:43 < IcePic> that is more on github and its PR flow though
11:44 < avih> there are always tradeoffs, and where it's easy, you get much more people involved, including less capable ones.
11:46 < avih> but still, getting more people involved has a bigger value, IMHO, than silly PR/patches which will be rejected
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11:47 < avih> again, i'm not evangalizing git. these are completely personal opinions, and i hope all the bsds live for many many many years to come
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11:47  * pardis misses having an OpenBSD channel
11:48 < IcePic> pardis: yeah, but my obsd/octeon with 16 cores just died, so I don't have anything fun to report. 
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11:48 < avih> anyway, thanks for the help and conversation. cheers!
11:48 < avih> it's been helpful and fun :)
11:49 < mischief> my openbsd git server is slow and bad, but i blame git for that mostly. happy? :-)
11:49 < avih> :)
11:50 < mischief> i had to run 16G ram just to have a chance of hosting the linux kernel repo
11:50 < mischief> (really, i'm blaming git here, not openbsd)
11:51 < mischief> it's been nice otherwise, i should move more to it
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11:51 < avih> interesting, but i think it is one of the bigger git repos out there, maybe except windows, but that's not public.
11:51 < mischief> https://git.offblast.org/explore/repos
11:52 < mischief> just mirrors for my local use
11:52 < avih> mischief: that's your server?
11:52 < mischief> an openbsd vm at my house, yes
11:53 < avih> cool. seem to work nicely, and gitea and its offshots are indeed very useful
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11:53 < mischief> just gitea from packages
11:53 < avih> yeah, got that from the icon, iirc the forks (like the codeberg one) look different
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11:55 < mischief> my router running openbsd is doing tls termination with relayd, for a number of stuff in vms on my server, including git
11:55 < avih> mischief: it's not blazing fast, e.g. navigating dirs, but i guess that's expected. it's plenty fast for me, but noticeably slower than professional hosting, understandably. very nice though.
11:55 < mischief> works fine :-)
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11:56 < avih> that's indeed the bottom line :)
11:56 < avih> much much quicker than gitlab though ;)
11:57 < mischief> it's actually a one core vm, maybe i should increase it
11:57 < avih> dunno, it works. if the load grows, you can give it more resources...
11:57 < mischief> earlier this year i made a * robots.txt to stop the AI cancer and banned all of china in pf at my gateway
11:57 < mischief> it helped
11:57 < avih> it's not annoyingly slow in any way, just... not instant, which is fine.
11:58 < avih> yeah, the ai thing is quite terrible...
11:59 < avih> afaik though, robots.txt doesn't really help again ai, does it? especially not against the "agentic" ones where your browser fetches stuff on your behalf...
12:00 < avih> against*
12:00 < mischief> it did, after i read anthropic or some other bot in my logs
12:00 < avih> nice
12:00 < mischief> i noticed because gitea liked to die after there were too many open fds or something and the server up and died with no automatic restart
12:01 < avih> :(
12:01 < ssm_> robots.txt is a "nice suggestion" for cute law-abiding crawlers. your real defense is in relayd for useragent tarpits, blocking bad hosts/domains with pf/unwind/unbound, and if all else fails, www/anubis,
12:01 < mischief> i'm not popular enough to need anubis
12:01 < avih> yeah, but that's very unfortunate
12:01 < mischief> though it seems even k.org uses it these days
12:01 < lockywolf> is there a way to format an MBR partition from openbsd?
12:02 < avih> eh.. re unfortunate, about the fact that robots.txt is a "suggestion"
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12:02 < mischief> lockywolf: have you tried fdisk(8)?
12:02 < lockywolf> mischief: yes
12:03 < mischief> and.. what did you do... and.. what happened?
12:04 < pardis> fdisk(8) doesn't do formatting
12:04 < pardis> the contents of partitions are only accessed through disklabel partitions
12:04 < pardis> if you want to write to an fdisk partition, you need to add it to the disklabel as well
12:05 < pardis> this will be done by default for a new disk, but if you add an fdisk partition to a disk with an existing label you will have to do it yourself
12:05 < lockywolf> pardis: so the disklabel partition should have the same offset and size as the mbr partition?
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12:05 < pardis> yes
12:06 < lockywolf> and they will represent "the same" place on the disk? 
12:06 < lockywolf> I see, thank you
12:08 < mischief> i'm not sure that's right. fdisk can certainly do mbr and gpt partitioning schemes.
12:09 < mischief> disklabel can edit the openbsd partition(s) within mbr or gpt
12:09 < mischief> lockywolf: what is your goal
12:09 < lockywolf> mischief: partitioning and formatting are not the same thing
12:11 < IcePic> in my book, "formatting" is creating a filesystem on a disk, or inside a partition
12:12 < sibiria> in my book it means "install windows again because low FPS in counter-strike"
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12:12 < IcePic> sibiria: because the 12yo kids snipe you from the other end of the map
12:12 < sibiria> stupid campers
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12:15  * mischief flies away
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12:22 < ssm_> you can write a filesystem without having a partition. I do this on small devices like usb flash storage
12:23 < ssm_> Oh I think that's understood I just misread
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12:44 < mystic> Hi, I'd like to ask if a package that come from the ports is more secure that the same package that come from the package system. Or in other words if compiling a software add a further security layer to the binaries. 
12:46 < pardis> no
12:49 < oldlaptop> ports is nothing more or less than the infrastructure for creating binary packages
12:51 < avih> i'm guessing what they mean is "which version should i use is the same application exists both at src and at the ports tree, but they're not identical?"
12:51 < avih> s/is/if/
12:51 < pardis> seems like an unlikely interpretation
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12:53 < avih> (i thought that a package would exist only in one of them, but i noticed that lynx exists both at the src tree under gnu, but also at the ports tree. i didn't check if they're identical)
12:53 < pardis> no, it doesn't
12:53 < avih> doesn't what, exists in both?
12:54 < oldlaptop> lynx was removed a long time ago
12:54 < avih> right, indeed i was looking at the 5.5 tag
12:54 < avih> and master in ports.
12:54 < oldlaptop> (cvsweb depicts removed *files* as being in the "Attic", and does not identify directories which contain only files in the "Attic")
12:55 < avih> i didn't use cvsweb. i observed the src tree locally, extracted from tarball and checked out from git, and the ports tree i only checked via the github web interface
12:56 < sonya> btw.. is there any obsd capable counter-strike engine? tried all from https://hlsources.github.io/ and managed to run only https://github.com/eukara/freecs , but was unable to join any online servers..
12:56 < avih> and indeed i didn't check if current src truck include lynx.
12:56 < avih> n
12:57 < avih> pardis: so you interpret it as whether it's preferred to compile it locally vs get the precompiled binary?
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13:01 < mystic> I misspoke. What I meant was that during compilation from ports, there is greater randomization of memory addresses, which can add a level of difficulty for an attacker to orient themselves within the process. Whereas packages are known objects, and therefore it's easier to calculate memory addresses and thus predict them. Or am I wrong?
13:03 < oldlaptop> Pretty much; the important 'randomization' generally happens at runtime (link time, specifically, which for the vast, vast bulk of packages is runtime).
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13:04 < mystic> oldlaptop: ok, thanks so much.
13:04 < oldlaptop> You could in principle randomize, say, the static linking in some random library from a package, as is done with libc at boot time. I doubt any upstream's build system does that.
13:05 < mystic> ok
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15:16 < lockywolf> How do I access blocks before 64?
15:16 < lockywolf> disklabel sd0 shows the c partition starting from lock 64
15:17 < lockywolf> and the only program which seems to be working with the disk directly is fdisk
15:18 < sibiria> you can't. that's where the NSA antennae are stored
15:19 < sibiria> try dd(1)
15:19 < thrig> KGB antennae: quit shoving, you hogs
15:19 < lockywolf> dd rsd0?
15:20 < lockywolf> no such file
15:20 < lockywolf> dd'ing those first 64 sectors would be enough
15:20 < sibiria> dd if=... of=/dev/rsd0c
15:20 < sibiria> will kill your partition table
15:21 < sibiria> read the descriptions of the bs and count parameters
15:22 < lockywolf> I don't want to kill the disklabel
15:22 < lockywolf> I need to understand what remains of GRUB, which used to be installed into mbr + mbr-gap
15:23 < lockywolf> now mbr boots openbsd, so I presume that the first 64 sectors are the only remains of that grub installation
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16:06 < Posterdati> hi
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16:06 < Posterdati> please help, is anyone running OpenBSD 7.7 on the raspberry pi 3b+? I need to make the spi works. Thanks!
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16:09 < vortexx> lockywolf: the OpenBSD bootloader will have taken those 64 sectors then
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16:10 < lockywolf> vortexx: the docs do not say anything about the openbsd bootloader being installed into the mbr gap
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16:43 < rrhylx> I'm sorry to people who have already read this. For relayd expert, do you know if it is possible to do SNI without the TLS keys?
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19:03 < iio7> Is there an "easy" way to make the install media persistent (writeable) without using the method of installing OpenBSD from an USB stick to another USB stick?
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19:13 < Bradipo> You don't have to use "another" USB stick.  You can put the minimal installer on USB and then install to that same USB once booted.
19:14 < Bradipo> I'm sure it's not a "supported" method, but I've done it numerous times.
19:16 < Bradipo> iio7: In other words, just use dd to write miniroot77.img to a thumbdrive and then boot it and install from the network to that very same thumbdrive.
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19:19 < iio7> Bradipo, thanks, I'll try that.
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19:27 < avih> pardis: re release tags vs their trunk origins, do you know what's the general relation between then, and whether there are exceptions? for instance, we saw that there a trunk state which is a superset of the release tag, is this typically the case with releases?
19:28 < avih> between them*
19:28 < avih> trunk is superset of the tag for 5.5 *
19:30 < avih> it's one thing that the mirror is only for trunk, so release are still "hidden" in it, but if release tags have some additional or modified compared to trunk, then the mirror basically doesn't allow to see releases...
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21:11 < uzuri> hi guys, do we already know a rough 7.8 release time?
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21:15 < fro> yes around the same time every other release has been
21:16 < systemdsucks> used to be may/november, it's more like april/october these days
21:17  * ClaudioM needs to order the 7.7 T-shirt
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21:23 < fro> maybe october 24
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21:41 < uzuri> systemdsucks: thanks, love the name btw
21:41 < uzuri> fro: how u come up with that specific date?
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22:57 < fro> https://cvsweb.openbsd.org/src/etc/root/root.mail?rev=1.179&content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup
22:58 < fro> oh they left
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22:58 < fro> but whatever
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22:58 < fro> in case anyone else was wondering
22:58 < fro> date could change again tho
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23:43 -!- akinji [~seyyah@user/akinji] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
23:47 -!- joe9 [~joe@c-73-24-194-198.hsd1.az.comcast.net] has joined #openbsd
23:58 -!- ijanc [~ijanc@user/ijanc] has quit [Quit: leaving]
--- Log closed Wed Sep 24 00:00:02 2025