--- Log opened Wed Sep 24 00:00:02 2025
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10:26 < lockywolf> https://lockywolf.net/2025-09-23_How-to-use-Grub-on-OpenBSD.org.d/index.html
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13:01 < avih> does anyone know whether typically there are differences in content between a cvs release tag and its trunk origins, and if there are, what kinds of changes?
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16:10 < Minall> Hello OpenBSD Community
16:10 < Minall> I'm trying to virtualize Debian, so Idownloaded the ISO. issue is that, it requires graphical, and I can't connect to the console (terminal just bugs out)
16:11 < Minall> I wonder which other ISO options I could run? <- My plan is to later redirect output to xorg as to overcome the graphical limitation, as I need to run graphical apps
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16:11 < uwharrie> that's more a question for Debian
16:12 < Minall> uwharrie: I'm using vmm, so I though there was options for these cases, let me read the manual again
16:13 < cgnarne> Minall: you need to tell linux to use the serial port. https://www.infosecworrier.dk/blog/2022/05/serially-install-debian-debian-over.html
16:13 < ssm__> If you can configure ssh on the guest install, X11 forwarding works (very slowly). vmm(4) is still very young, the emulators/qemu port may be what you want (lack of kvm will make it sluggish). If you want to use vmm regardless, alpine is the linux you'll have the least turbulance with in my experience.
16:13 < thrig> iirc debian has an auto-installer similar to kickstart, but setting that up might take some doing
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16:14 < ssm__> however I successfully installed debian on vmm(4) before, it wasn't a big deal, I just did a normal console install and booted to console. don't remember the exact steps because it was a while ago.
16:14 < ssm__> maybe needed to pass serial console flags to grub
16:14 < uwharrie> no, vmm doesn't have options for dealing with Linux installs that need graphics/a framebuffer
16:15 < Minall> cgnarne: Thanks, I'll check it
16:15 < Minall> ssm__: What are the possible advantages over using vmm? <- Even though is young, I wonder about its features given that it is the one included in OpenBSD
16:16 < Minall> thrig: Cool, then it can be done. I just have to keep looking
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16:16 < Minall> uwharrie: Then I do need a specific ISO, I'll check what cgnarne mentions
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16:17 < sibiria> no you just need to twist its arm during boot so that it uses the console instead of the graphical mode
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16:17 < uwharrie> Minall: I'm not sure, but it sounds like others have experience supporting Debian
16:18 < ssm__> Minall: vmm is faster than qemu for console-usage by a fairly large margin. vmm only supports x86 at the moment, qemu supports a whole bunch of stuff. qemu currently has better support of hardware passthrough, even on openbsd ( was able to flash a phone on alpine linux with fastboot over it )
16:18 < Minall> sibiria: I wonder how would I...
16:18 < Minall> ssm__: I see..
16:19 < sibiria> interrupt the boot and provide it with something like "console=ttyS0,57600"
16:20 < sibiria> press tab, i think, to edit the boot dmcline
16:20 < sibiria> cmdline*
16:20 < ssm__> 115200 worked last time I tried it, and debian's installer is a TUI so you'll really want it
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16:20 < sibiria> iirc it will have "quiet" as one of the options. if so, remove that and add the console thing
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16:45 < Minall> I mean I don't think I can press tab since it is graphical
16:45 < Minall> But well I'm checking options
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16:58 < cgnarne> you can. i did install debian on vmm and it works
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17:02 < sibiria> Minall: the initial boot menu should be manifested on the serial console as well
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17:10 < Zerock> I would like to have a program running in a chroot that also can access other specific trees that are outside that chroot tree. Is there a way to do this? I considered using hard links, but it appears impossible to create a hard link to a directory.
17:11 < thrig> NFS mount the directories in
17:11 < thrig> or toss the chroot and use unveil
17:12 < Zerock> hmm
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17:13 < Zerock> is there a way to wrap something in unveil in the way it's done with chroot?
17:13 < Zerock> (without writing my own wrapper in C)
17:14 < Bradipo> What kind of access to files outside the chroot?  Read-only?
17:15 < vortexx> Zerock: no, you have to write code to use unveil and pledge
17:15 < Zerock> yes, read only
17:15 < vortexx> nfs mount is easiest
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17:16 < thrig> pledge and unveil are supported in various languages besides C
17:17 < Bradipo> If it's read-only, and you don't care about time-delay, you could just mirror the data into the chroot using rsync or tar or dump+restore.
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17:17 < derpadmin> thrig : really? I didn't know that!
17:17 < Bradipo> But ln works well too if you just recreate the directory structure and use ln.
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17:18 < zelest> thrig, the tricky part is to know what syscalls those other languages uses and how far "up" they're ran :)
17:18 < thrig> yeah TCL or SBCL use a lot of syscalls
17:18 < thrig> also pledge don't work good with lazy-loaded code
17:19 < Zerock> Bradipo: hmm mirroring could work. I know of a package called fwa which will watch files for changes. I wonder if that works for directories...
17:19 < zelest> try pecl-pledge for PHP ;)
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17:19 < Bradipo> Zerock: There's also inotifywait.
17:19 < Zerock> :O it does work
17:19 < Zerock> but does it work recursively...
17:20 < Bradipo> Oh, recursively, not sure.
17:20 < Zerock> it does not
17:20 < Bradipo> That seems overkill.
17:21 < Bradipo> Just setup a cronjob that runs once ever n minutes (whatever you deem appropriate) and rsync it.  rsync only syncs new content.
17:21 < Zerock> this is basically being used for user web content, so users should be able to update a file deep in the tree and have it noticed
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17:21 < Zerock> yeah a cron job would work, but ideally it would only be triggered when there is actually a change, since it won't happen that often
17:22 < thrig> the CGI or whatever could set a dirty flag, something else acts on that
17:22 < Bradipo> So content is being produced where?
17:22 < Zerock> static files in a subdirectory of the user's home
17:23 < Bradipo> So a user uploads content to their home directory?
17:23 < Zerock> right
17:23 < Bradipo> And this is the "trigger"?
17:23 < Zerock> yes
17:23 < Bradipo> How do they upload it?  SFTP?
17:23 < Zerock> yes
17:23 < Zerock> well usually
17:23 < Zerock> they could also just write it by hand with vi. they have shell accounts
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17:23 < derpadmin> sftp can run a command baked in the public key
17:24 < derpadmin> perhaps this could help
17:24 < Bradipo> Yeah, this sounds more like NFS fits the bill.
17:24 < Zerock> hmm
17:24 < Bradipo> Or mount the user home directories in the chroot.
17:24 < Zerock> well only a subdirectory should be available in the chroot. The user's config files and such should not be available
17:24 < thrig> exposing ~/.ssh over the web might be bad
17:24 < Zerock> right
17:25 < derpadmin> Zerock, what about monitoring successful ssh access to trigger the sync?
17:25 < Zerock> theoretically .ssh should be mode 600 but still, they may have other private files they don't want to serve to the internet
17:25 < Bradipo> So ssh is using the ChrootDirectory option to place users in a chrooted home that they can only see their own files?
17:25 < Zerock> Bradipo: no. the program I want to run in chroot is a daemon
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17:26 < Zerock> derpadmin: that would almost do it, but it doesn't cover the case of someone logged into the shell editing files by hand. They'd need to log out/in again to trigger the update.
17:27 < derpadmin> right
17:27 < Bradipo> I don't think ForceCommand is what you'll want in this case.
17:27 < derpadmin> hash of the files? sync when hash change and re-hash?
17:27 < Zerock> nfs is sounding closer to the answer, but I didn't want to have to manually set up a new export for each user as such
17:28 < Bradipo> Why not put the actual home of the user content in the chroot?
17:28 < Zerock> and also an fstab entry
17:28 < Bradipo> Do users have full access using SSH?
17:28 < Zerock> Bradipo: because the daemon shouldn't expose the user's other (non-web-content) files to the internet
17:28 < Zerock> yes
17:29 < Bradipo> I said "user content", I didn't say "user HOME".
17:29 < Zerock> oh
17:29 < Zerock> I see what you mean
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17:29 < Zerock> that is probably a better idea
17:29 < thrig> or make /var/blah/$userdirshere and ln -s /var/blah/user /home/user/yourfiles and only mount in /var/blah
17:29 < Bradipo> So whenever you add a new user, you create a symbolic link in their /home/user/www that links to /var/www/users/user
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17:29 < Zerock> yes
17:29 < Zerock> that's a good idea
17:30 < Zerock> I already have a script for setting up new users so I could just add that
17:30 < Bradipo> Or whatever the daemon is.
17:30 < Zerock> right, it's not actually an http web daemon but it's close enough for an example :)
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18:04 < rkta> Do people here run stable or current on daily workhorse laptops? I wonder if it makes more sense to keep the base system to a 'stable' snapshot and have the latest packages.
18:04 < Bradipo> I run stable and only upgrade every 6 months or so.
18:05 < cgnarne> rkta: that does not work
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18:06 < sibiria> if you want stable + latest packages you need to run stable and update+build ports yourself
18:11 < rkta> How stable is the -current base system? I can live with some packages getting borked, but I need my machine in a working state.
18:11 < rkta> maybe I should just stick with -stable for now
18:12 < uwharrie> do you mean no API changes stable or won't crash on your specific hardware stable?
18:13 < sibiria> snapshots are not stable
18:13 < sibiria> inevitably it's going to be a bumpy ride
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18:14 < rkta> won't crash on my HW stable. 
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18:14 < cgnarne> all bets are off with current
18:14 < pardis> -current is almost always in a working state
18:15 < pardis> but there is no guarantee
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18:15 < sibiria> "except for exceptions"
18:15 < pardis> it also depends on your hardware, -current is less likely to break on a 25-year-old Pentium than a brand new ThinkPad for which drivers are still being written
18:15 < sibiria> i don't think a single month ever passed by without someone asking for help here with an unstable system they run snapshots on
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18:16 < pardis> usually the help being requested is related to broken packages, not a completely screwed up base system
18:16 < rkta> Some is said about Debian Sid and still many people are running it on their laptops - that's why I as a former Debian user am wondering.
18:17 < pardis> if you are fine with Debian sid you will probably be fine with OpenBSD -current
18:17 < uwharrie> then you're aware of all the pointless questions and hand wringning that goes along with such a line of inquiry
18:17 < pardis> but if you are a new user, I would recommend not starting with -current until you know the system
18:18 < thrig> usually there's a flood of questions whenever current does the twice a year prep for release shuffle
18:21 < rkta> Ok, I will stick with -stable for some time and see how well I will get along.
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18:21 < rkta> I'm running -stable on a server, but just migrated my daily driver (T420) to OBSD.
18:22 < sibiria> stable and manually building ports is the best of two worlds for now
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18:24 < pardis> if you mean building -current ports, that would be more likely to break than just running -current
18:24 < uwharrie> With the expectation you're comfortable with the ports system, building software in general, reading documentation, and working with an unsupported configuration
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18:24 < rkta> Building software is my day job.
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18:26 < sibiria> you can settle for stable updates to packages. but sometimes they lag behind months
18:26 < sibiria> depends on both the maintainer and whoever else is responsible for building and pushing updated packages
18:27 < uwharrie> and the architecture :P
18:28 < sibiria> yeah only x86 get updates
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18:28 < Bradipo> I would expect "stable" to "lag behind".
18:28 < sibiria> the important ports usually get new package updates quickly. others can take weeks, months, or sometimes be ignored for 6 months until next release
18:29 < sibiria> stuff like chromium, apache httpd, firefox, these things usually get expediated package updates. anything else is haphazard
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18:30 < rkta> I mostly care about security updates. Like Debian does backporting patches to stable versions. I'm used to ./configure && make install the very few programs where I want the latest version.
18:31 < uwharrie> the LWN daily security updates article is usually enough to notifiy me if I need to go poke around at something I depend on
18:31 < sibiria> well important security update or not, this is how it goes with openbsd's packages. you have to do your due dilligence and build ports manually if you want updates quickly
18:32 < rkta> I will consider building ports manually. 
18:32 < pardis> bear in mind that building -current ports on -stable is not supported and may not even work
18:32 < thrig> or if there's an obvious bug, like when they broke lilypond in stable due to a ghostscript fix
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18:33 < uwharrie> but I do my best to never expose anything from packates/ports to the network, so it turns out to not be that big a concern
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18:35 < cgnarne> the stuff i point at the network usually is the browser. chrome and firefox both use unveil/pledge so i'm mostly not concerned
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18:41 < vortexx> Zerock: if you want a more complete solution to what you're doing, you might want to look at nextcloud, which speaks webdav, if you users sharing files via http but the uploads are going via sftp (they can just upload via the web interface or a webdav mount with nextcloud)
18:43 < Zerock> vortexx: this is the part where I tell you this system is a Sun Ultra 2 with 768MB of memory that I'm using as a semi-public unix :)
18:43 < Zerock> nextcloud would be a bit much
18:44 < Zerock> or perhaps you just mean running a webdav client
18:44 < Zerock> but still, I want my users to be able to create files in a directory with ordinary unix programs
18:45 < Zerock> I took the solution of making the actual directories inside the chroot and then symlinking from the user home directories
18:45 < cgnarne> nice, i always wanted a sparc system
18:46 < Zerock> I have more sparc systems to get rid of, but they are all 32-bit so they won't run openbsd anymore
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19:10 < uzuri> rkta: i run current and its very very usable, pkg's are also relatively uptodate
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19:11 < uzuri> i'd even say, as a daily driver if you often depend on external packages (eg. browsers) then running current is the sane option
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19:12 < uzuri> i would not want to run a 6 month old version of Tor Browser, i prefer my programs without active CVE's yk
19:13  * Zerock connects windows xp to the internet without a firewall
19:15 < uzuri> sibiria: chromium is not in the /packages-stable repo
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19:16 < sibiria> that's how it is with packages on openbsd
19:16 < rkta> uzuri: thanks, running a old version of a browser was among the things I wanted to avoid.
19:17 < sibiria> updated ports being built and pushed to stable-packages is very ad-hoc
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19:19 < uzuri> rkta: yes thats the decicion you have to make, either a extremely solid base system or cutting (rather bleeding) edge with newest updates
19:21 < rkta> That's why I was asking if it is possible to have a solid base with uptodate packages. Sounds like using the ports tree could be a solution. I will see.
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19:22 < uzuri> sounds like hell if you ask me
19:22 < sibiria> -stable + building ports yourself, as said. that's what you have to do
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19:23 < uzuri> having to compile chromium every week is one thing, but having to do it with partially outdated libs etc. is something else
19:23 -!- leah2 [~leah@vuxu.org] has joined #openbsd
19:23 < uzuri> but yeah, for well written software the ports tree is a good option
19:24 < uzuri> browsers are just horrible in every aspect
19:24 < thrig> w3m isn't too terrible with some pledge and unveil
19:24 < sibiria> chromium is gonna burn a few calories to build :)
19:25 < uzuri> a few ^^
19:25 < uzuri> each year it takes like 20% longer or so to build
19:25 < sibiria> i used to build ungoogled chromium back in the day. horrendous. and these days that bloated piece of junk chromium base is probably twice as large
19:26 < uzuri> yeah, ungoogled chromium takes 2.5h on my 72c machine
19:26 < sibiria> disgusting
19:26 < uzuri> was on artix though
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19:27 < uzuri> as bad as c++ is, i hope they never rewrite it to rust haha
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19:30 < rkta> I already have a bleeding egde w3m, but I want a secure Firefox. chrome maybe for video calls or "trusted" sites as microsoft stuff.
19:30 < cgnarne> use links or lynx. Return to monke
19:30 < Minall> I'm trying to export ENV so that my .kshrc is read on new terminals... As per the docs I can set it putting it on .profile, however, it is not being read (also restarted)
19:30 < Minall> So I'm still searching for a way too
19:31 < Bradipo> I've used ENV for years, no problems.
19:31 < Bradipo> What do you have in your .profile ?
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19:33 < Minall> I have PATH, and the last line which is 'export PATH HOME TERM'. These were already there, and I have added before the last export, 'export ENV=$HOME/.kshrc'
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19:34 < Minall> Now, it is my ~/.profile specifically
19:34 < Minall> I have restarted (just to know it was nothing about xorg, nor other)
19:34 < jmcunx> also are you using /bin/ksh as your sell ?  There other ksh93 is in ports
19:35 < jmcunx> ignore 'other'
19:35 < Minall> Yes, I'm using ksh <- i is a fresh installation
19:35 < Minall> I'm using XFCE-terminal
19:36 < jmcunx> IIRC, xfve term has a flag to force login shell, see if that is set.  I have not used that for a while.
19:37 < Minall> There's an option to Run command as login shell
19:37 < jmcunx> you should enale that
19:38 < jmcunx> enable I mean
19:38 < Minall> Oh, that did the trick !
19:38 < Minall> So the config was alright, it was more of a xfce specific hehe
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19:39 < vortexx> Zerock: oh right lol
19:39 < Minall> Thanks
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20:50 < chonk> HOW DO I INSTALL BITCHX FROM PORTS?
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20:51 < quinq> YES
20:51 < chonk> OK BOSS IM ON IT
20:51 < Zerock> MAKE INSTALL
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20:59 < fro> what about scrollZ
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21:01 < chonk> доит киош шнат ц шант
21:03 < quinq> You must choose. But choose wisely.
21:03 < fro> i only use openchat by openface
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21:04 < quinq> fro, you sound like the kind of very open person
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21:07 < chonk> THANK YOU! OPENBSD FTW
21:07 < fro> The best IRC client for OS/2. Best of all platform IRC when used with GemZ script!
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21:08 < fro> RIP
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--- Log closed Thu Sep 25 00:00:04 2025