--- Log opened Sun Oct 19 00:00:04 2025
--- Day changed Sun Oct 19 2025
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00:20 < systemdsucks> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45625764
00:20 < systemdsucks> shit sorry
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01:21 < ssm_> am I stupid or does vi(1) lack mechanisms to resize split screen buffers
01:22 < ssm_> also is there a way to open a new screen without splitting? :e changes file, :E doesn't, but will split (like all capital file commands)
01:27 < thrig> my version of vi disables all the capital commands (or treats them as tolower)
01:28 < ssm_> doing everything with shell jobs is definitely a way to do it
01:28 < ssm_> or tmux
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02:13 < byteskeptical> tmux for me but you can do it in vi if desired. :res[ize] 20
02:15 < ssm_> :res 24 --> segfault
02:15 < ssm_> nice!
02:16 < ssm_> wish I had my coredumps on
02:16 < byteskeptical> achievement unlocked!
02:17 < byteskeptical> isn't a new screen going to be a new file?
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02:20 < ssm_> what I want to do is background current file -> open new file in fg buffer. currently the only way I know to do this is (| command sep) :E new_file | ^W | :bg
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02:28 < thrig> I bounce between two files with :e other  and then control+^ (mapped to \e)
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02:42 < ssm_> maybe what I want is autowrite
02:43 < thrig> my version of vi forces autowrite in lots of places
02:45 < mischief> i use vim, and lots of tabs
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02:47 < ssm_> I won't use vim until they add 3d visual block mode where I can edit in a 3d block across multiple files sorry
02:48 < mischief> be the change you want to see in the world
02:49 < ssm_> the change I will make... is -E flag for ed(1) to support extended regular expressions
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02:51 < thrig> ed is also lacking in filters
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04:56 < rtj> I just use a laser pointer and direct my cats what to type.
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05:06 < ocb> hello.
05:07 < byteskeptical> hey o
05:07 < ocb> i would like to ask a question.
05:07 < byteskeptical> you may or may not receive an answer
05:08 < ocb> ok. i will write it.
05:10 < ocb> i would like to install openbsd for production in a virtual machine, its primary focus is running forum running under php. although i have around five years of experience with netbsd, the reason i would like to go with openbsd is for its security, as many people mention.
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05:11 < ocb> can anyone comment how large is the difference between the two in security generally - user process isolation, package building security features, memory protection?
05:21 < TommyC> That's three. :3
05:23 < ocb> TommyC: no, i've mentioned only netbsd and openbsd, that's two :)
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05:24 < mischief> magic 8 ball says: yes
05:25 < ocb> huh?
05:25 < thrig> a webapp hopefully in a chroot probably won't differ much in terms of what security vulns result in
05:26 < ocb> i agree with you, taking under consideration i am primarily into web security for a long time. considering the forum is safe enough, i would further isolate it on the system level from the operating system and other processes, but also same process threads.
05:27 < ocb> it seems i will have to do actual reading, rather than asking.
05:27 < mischief> there is no such thing
05:27 < mischief> threads share memory
05:27 < systemdsucks> you rolled too many questions in one ocb
05:28  * systemdsucks hides
05:29 < ocb> so memory problems in the process, even if threads running under different users could possibly give problems in case of an attack.
05:30 < ocb> i will need to do more reading. will spin an instance of openbsd and see.
05:30 < ocb> thank you for your help.
05:30 < systemdsucks> start here https://www.openbsd.org/security.html 
05:31 < mischief> posix demands all threads in a process have the same credentials, there's no different users in threads
05:32 < ocb> noted, will read more about threads. thank you for the explanation and for your time.
05:32 < ocb> systemdsucks: on it
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11:58 < humm> <ssm_> the change I will make... is -E flag for ed(1) to support extended regular expressions
11:58 < humm> check out plan9/plan9port `9 sam -d`
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11:59 < humm> or even `9 ed`, if they have ed in p9p
12:07 < Riviera> Extended regular expressions in ed?
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12:08 < Riviera> What for? Being able to refer to refer to match groups in the s command's replacement part seems crucial for somethign like ed, but EREs don't have that.
12:08 < Riviera> And all the backslashes of BREs are exactly for not having to type backslashes when e.g. dealing with code in ed, to match them literally.
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12:20 < humm> Riviera: being able to refer to match groups in the replacement part is orthogonal to BRE or ERE
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12:20 < Riviera> sorry yeah
12:20 < Riviera> i meant back-references actually
12:21 < humm> yeah, and <purism>those don’t belong in regexp anyway</purism>
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12:21 < Reinhilde> I don't belong in regex
12:24 < bombuzal> s/Reinhilde//;
12:25 < Reinhilde> cállese ja
12:25 < Reinhilde> ya*
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14:01 < ssm_> Riviera: EREs have niceties from interactive perspective, you can group atoms in () without escaping, instead of \{1,\} you can just use +. the biggest improvement would be the | operator for pattern seperation ( (week|day) matches week OR day ) which BREs have no equivalent to
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15:41 < Minall> Hello OpenBSD Community!
15:42 < Minall> What are my cli options to run flac files?, I am testing flac123, now, it for some reason bugs my system... While it was working at first, it made my sndio to just stop working, and I had to restart it. Now when I open a file with it awful noise comes out
15:42 < Minall> So I tested with vlc and everything it alright
15:43 < Minall> So I just want a CLI option to have the most direct send of audio, so that I can later tweak sndio for no resampling and other stuff. I am connecting my laptop via jack to a headphones amplifier, so I would like to have the best possible audio my app can handle (I'm reading about sndio). So I want to know so far that the program I'm using is not adding equalizers nor anything
15:44 < TommyC> vlc in cli mode?
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15:45 < sibiria> mpv much better choice than vlc, any day
15:45 < Minall> TommyC Nope, that one I'm using gui
15:45 < sibiria> but for just music i suppose it's not an ideal choice, being a video/media player in general
15:45 < Minall> sibiria: MPV then... I'll check it out. Does it apply any mixing to it?, as I want it raw to sndio
15:46 < Minall> If it doesn't do anything with the audio, that would be enough I guess?
15:47 < sibiria> it doesn't do anything with the audio unless you tell it to
15:48 < Minall> Honestly maybe vlc too, I may just be paranoid, you know how audio thingies are 
15:48 < pardis> play(1) from the sox package is a very simple one
15:48 < pardis> but it won't let you seek, it just plays a file
15:50 < Minall> pardis: That may be what I want honestly
15:50 < Minall> I'll take a look, thanks pardis!.
15:52 < thrig> play has trouble with midi files
15:53 < Minall> thrig: oh, well I'm not yet into midi so, if it does alright with flac then...
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16:05 < thrig> I wrote a little fluidsynth wrapper for midi
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16:19 < oldlaptop> Minall: Maybe you want mpd.
16:19 < ssm_> can anyone here comment on the usability of umb(4)? mobile linux is a travesty, and openbsd on a sbc and/or laptop with a nice little isolated usb modem I can pull out at any time seems much more ideal than hoping pmOS or ubports doesn't explode if you look at it in the wrong way
16:19 < ssm_> critically in the case of pine64 hardware where the charging circuit is software controlled for some insane reason
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17:37 < avemestr> Minall: How about MOC? https://openports.pl/path/audio/moc (it's a TUI though.. if you install through pkg_add note that the executable is "mocp")
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17:58 < avemestr> (I've had fine experiences with vlc and moc on OpenBSD... no sndio troubles)
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18:10  * tux0r uses cmus
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18:45 < Minall> avemestr: I'm taking a look at mpd, a tui is not what I'd like, but a command calling only
18:45 < Minall> Thks
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18:47 < jab> hello, is anyone here familiar with "endlessh" ?  I think it would be cool if Openssh sent attackers to an endlessh instead of saying "wrong passphase" or "no public key".  Or maybe said in a different way...could openssh integrate and endlessh functionality? 
18:47 < jab> https://github.com/skeeto/endlessh  
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18:52 < mischief> you can redirect to it with pf
18:54 < thrig> attackers have lots of computers, and you don't have many high ports
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19:06 < jab> mischief: how would one redirect it with pf ?
19:08 < jab> or more specifically...I would like "ssh joshua@gnucode.me" to work on port 22 with public key authentication.  But if someone tries to use password authentication, or the wrong public key on port 22 for gnucode.me, then pf would redirect the attacker to endlessh.  Is that possible?
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19:23 < mischief> jab: using sshguard or fail2ban or the like, you can move addresses into tables in pf
19:25 < sibiria> just move your ssh off of port 22 if you want to get rid of a lot of noise
19:25 < sibiria> and trust in openssh. sshguard or fail2ban isn't improving security. in this context they are solutions looking for a problem
19:26 < oldlaptop> (If you wait long enough, the bots may well find your high port and give you your noise back)
19:26 < sibiria> sometimes. but only a minority of them
19:26 < oldlaptop> For amusement value, put it on a port the bots will hit with HTTP attacks
19:26 < oldlaptop> "bad protocol version GET /admin.php"
19:27 < pardis> I'd be surprised if many bots still attempt unencrypted HTTP
19:28 < oldlaptop> (The last time I did this was ssh-in-stunnel on an HTTPS-smelling port, to fool application-level firewalls that killed ssh handshakes)
19:29 < oldlaptop> I would also assume there's a lot less activity directed against port 80 - but they're still going to be doing that, just like they still look for telnet
19:29 < oldlaptop> if they actually find something, odds are really, really good it'll be something they can use
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19:31 < mischief> he asked if its possible, not if its a good idea
19:32 < mischief> these days i just block whole network blocks and haven't looked back
19:33 < oldlaptop> Either that's an obviously unacceptable cost or an obviously meaningless one
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19:33 < pardis> most of my problems went away when I banned all of EC2, GCP and Azure
19:33 < thrig> block them all. the LAN shall know his own (except for that small message forging problem)
19:33 < pardis> (not just from ssh, but everything)
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19:34 < oldlaptop> Wonder how many crawlers that poleaxes
19:34 < oldlaptop> ISTR at least one of the "AI" outfits has been caught botnetting anyone who installed their chrome extension
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19:35 < thrig> shocking!
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19:36 < jab> sibiria: I want to keep openssh on port 22.  I don't want to have to type "ssh -p 1022 joshua@gnucode.me, because I will keep forgetting the port number.
19:36 < pardis> if only there were an ssh_config(5)
19:37 < oldlaptop> (Still annoying if you're on "not your" machine - which perhaps you should be wary about anyway)
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19:37 < sibiria> jab: you can make an alias for that. no need to remember anything
19:37  * xse uses ~/.ssh/config to not forget the port number
19:38 < sibiria> alias jabsmemory='ssh -p 1234 jab@blah'
19:38 < jab> an alias seems annoying to me.
19:38 < jab> because then I have to copy that alias to other machines.
19:38 < sibiria> compared to typing out ssh invocation over and over? hrm
19:39 < pardis> I wouldn't use an alias if it can be avoided
19:39 < pardis> and it can always be avoided
19:39 < jab> sibiria: it seems "suboptimal" to what I'm trying to do.
19:40 < jab> I want "ssh joshua@gnucode.me" to 'just work' no matter what machine I am on.  Regardless of alias, or configuration options.  And I'd like to be annoying to bots and send them to endlessh. 
19:40 < sibiria> but trapping the bots doesn't solve any problem. nor does sshguard or fail2ban. you're just adding complexity for no benefit. in essence, you trade the "annoyance" of having the ssh on a different port for another annoyance
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19:40 < sibiria> getting upset about them trying to connect is akin to being upset about people walking by on the street outside. it's what the Internet is
19:40 < jab> I'm surprised that openssh hasn't added an endlessh feature.  We have spamd for instance.
19:40 < oldlaptop> It goes a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction towards "solving" the bot problem by wasting the bots' resources.
19:41 < oldlaptop> Unfortunately the bots have semi-infinite resources.
19:41 < sibiria> they have infinite resources. much like how greylisting with spamd etc. doesn't solve the spammer problem. it's a solution from the past for a problem of the past. it's no longer actual
19:41 < oldlaptop> (unlike, say, phone or email scammers, they're mostly not paying for the computers they use)
19:41 < xse> there was several features added somewhat recently like PerSourcePenalties / PerSourcePenaltyExemptList stuff like that
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19:42 < xse> > https://undeadly.org/cgi?action=article;sid=20240607042157
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19:43 < jab> Have you all ever read this endlessh blog post?  I'm assuming yes, but if not, then here it is:  https://nullprogram.com/blog/2019/03/22/  
19:43 < sibiria> running these things cost as much, or more, resources than it costs for spammers to just keep trying endlessly
19:43 < sibiria> a pointless arms race
19:44 < sibiria> save yourself the complexity and just move the sshd to another port to get rid of 99% of the noise, or accept the noise and feel confident that nothing is gonna get through
19:44 < xse> especially given that those kinds of bots often run on compromised machines like 'for free' on someone else's computer
19:46 < sibiria> pretty much always the case. endless capacity from endless botnets
19:47 < xse> i think the penalties options are pretty cool, essentially an sshguard/fail2ban kind of thing integrated in openssh
19:48 < xse> but yeah just moving the port is the easiest and most effective thing
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19:55 < avemestr> Why not use pf-badhost? https://undeadly.org/cgi?action=article;sid=20210119113425 ?
19:55 < avemestr> I've been pretty happy with pf-badhost - mentioned here: https://undeadly.org/cgi?action=article;sid=20210119113425
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19:57 < sibiria> large, clumsy, aggressive. but can be convenient. i use emergingthreats' block list and feed it directly to pf with a oneliner
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20:06 < byteskeptical> avemestr: big fan of pf-badhost and its sister project unblock-adblock
20:07 < byteskeptical> you can customize the list it uses, you don't have to keep the defaults, does it's own parsing too
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20:19 < jab> thanks for suggesting other options folks!
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20:49 < i00nsu> hello. I am building a firewall with openbsd using a pc with 3 network cards. I setup the main machine with static ip and all network cards connected have static ip too. From the main host, I can pint and ssh into some machine from one of the subnetworks, but I don't have access network access of those machines, that are from some subneting. I am using old routers to use them as switchs. So, my question 
20:49 < i00nsu> is, if I can connect this machines from the main host and I cannot connect from the subneting, what can be misconfigured? 
20:50 < mischief> did you enable forwarding
20:50 < i00nsu> yes
20:51 < i00nsu> I am not sure about the pf rules, but even when I disable them, the problem persist, so I think is not the pf.conf rules that are wrong.. 
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20:58 < oldlaptop> i00nsu: It's not clear (at least to me?) what your network actually looks like. Can you explain that in more detail - what nodes are on this network, and how are they connected?
20:58 < oldlaptop> (It's hard even to know what configuration details to ask you for.)
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21:02 < sibiria> if you show the three hostname.if files that would explain a lot
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21:10 < i00nsu> ok. Let me try: firewall_mainCard(192.168.10.10) | extra_net_card(192.168.20.20) - Connected to router LAN ports, where server_machine(192.168.20.30) is. When I try to connect via ssh to the server_machine, from the Firewall, I can. When I try to connect from server_machine to Firewall or Internet, I cannot. Note, I am trying to find solutions on internet, but the setup I am reading is using dhcp. In my 
21:10 < i00nsu> example, all IPs are static. 
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21:11 < sibiria> the actual files would help as they show the netmask and the full config
21:11 < sibiria> (use a pastebin)
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21:15 < i00nsu> hmm.. hostname.main inet 192.168.10.10 255.255.255.0 192.168.10.255  | hostname.extra inet 192.168.20.20 255.255.255.0 192.168.20.255
21:16 < i00nsu> the hostname.main have an extra line with: dest router_ip
21:17 < i00nsu> I need to add in the hostname.extra the same line, pointing to the node of that network? like: dest 192.168.20.1 
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21:19 < sibiria> you shouldn't need to add dest at all
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21:21 < sibiria> but whatever is at the other end of .20.20/24 won't be able to reach .10.10/24 unless you forward those packets. but they will be able to reach the computer on .20.20
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21:23 < i00nsu> The forwarding is setup in the machine using openbsd, as suggested
21:24 < sibiria> right. the sysctl isn't enough. you need to forward the packets with pf as well, if you want to reach .10.0/24 from .20.0/24. as an option, you can let stuff listen on more than one interface
21:24 < sibiria> the sshd can be configured to listen on all interfaces
21:24 < sibiria> or any which you want
21:27 < i00nsu> but internal networks, cannot access that machine... from server_machine, I can ping the IP of network_card of the router_pc. forwarding is set to 1 so, should work. \\ sibiria, you mean I need to create a pf rule to explicit say, 'from internal_ip to lan_ip keep and pass' ? 
21:28 < i00nsu> pf is disable.. shouldn't be working? 
21:30 < sibiria> if you have three network interfaces, 10.0.1.1/24, 10.0.2.1/24 and 10.0.3.1/24, the stuff on the opposite ends of those interfaces cannot speak to one another unless you forward traffic between the interfaces using PF
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21:36 < sibiria> you can also employ a bridge for this, to make a group of interfaces intuitively act as a switch
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21:37 < mischief> sibiria: what makes you think pf is needed for routing?
21:40 < sibiria> routing in the sense of address translation for a shared egress
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21:49 < oldlaptop> Three private /24s don't involve any "egress". The machines on those different /24s need to know what the next hop is to get to the other ones, but pf shouldn't be necessary.
21:49 < sibiria> enabling forwarding is all that's needed for the packets to just hop between interfaces
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21:50 < oldlaptop> i00nsu: I would wonder what the routing tables look like on these machines, especially "server_machine".
21:50 < oldlaptop> (i.e. `route -n show` or similar)
21:53 < i00nsu> checking and testing
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23:50 < i00nsu> Ok, solved. I miss to add /etc/mygate :) 
23:51 < i00nsu> the server_machine without that file, couldn't reach internet. 
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23:58 < systemdsucks> nice
--- Log closed Mon Oct 20 00:00:38 2025