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09:04 < Minall> When an NVIDIA card is not supported on OpenBSD (as in it appears Unknown on pcidump), what options do I have?, is there work I can do to give info to the OpenBSD devs, or even see a possible solution myself? (I'm not a C programmer though)
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09:17 < lts-> You can use non-NVIDIA hardware
09:21 < ssm_> Minall: I don't know the exact reason nouveau isn't ported, but I'd have to guess it's either licensing issues or it's annoying in some other way (probably the former). you can still get display out with nvidia, just unaccelerated. [unserious] if you have a gt200 series card you can use nv(4) :3
09:21 < vortexx> https://undeadly.org/cgi?action=article;sid=20251020052031 <-- chromium and derivatives (iridium, ungoogled-chromium) are getting VA-API support in -current
09:22 < sibiria> now i can finally GPU-accelerate all my youtube videos of dancing cats and singing dogs
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09:54 < Minall> lts-: Indeed, I'll purchase later a laptop without Nvidia for sure, just that right now the one I have has it, and thus HDMI is not operable as it uses that graphic
09:55 < Minall> ssm_: I don't have the laptop here, now I don't think I have options as xrandr gives me no hdmi option at all, so I think it is just not being used
09:55 < sibiria> life on openbsd is pretty good with an AMD APU
09:55 < sibiria> It Just Works
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09:55 < Minall> So I though if there were some steps for me to take to try to re-take support, and give back my changes to the project (sadly I'm no C dev though). 
09:56 < Minall> sibiria: Yeah Imma go for an Intel one or AMD later
09:56 < Minall> Or if they involve to much complexity and just aren't there because of that
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10:12 < pardis> trying to add hardware support without writing C is like trying to publish a novel without knowing English
10:12 < pardis> an English-language novel, to be precise
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10:27 < Minall> pardis: Then I sleep :c
10:28 < Minall> I know my way around my system but, no C... I would really like to work on it yet I would have to learn it first. I could of course mention this to the project but, it is not priority and won't be so
10:28 < Minall> And understanbly it isn't
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11:06 < atmosx> You won't believe this, but someone uploaded a PDF copy of the K&R book "The C Programming language, 2nd edition" on github: https://tinyurl.com/2yt8hvn8
11:11 < i00nsu> yeah, github is a good source to find not only pdfs, but manuals and other cool readings. 
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11:14 < sibiria> let us know when someone uploads the 3rd edition
11:15 < rnkn> yoink
11:15 < rnkn> sibiria what's the difference with the 3rd edition?
11:15 < sibiria> it's Newerer and Betterer
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11:16 < sibiria> i'm just jesting, i don't know if they ever published a 3rd edition
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12:17 < humm> they didn’t (and dmr is dead)
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12:27 < ariadna> the "3rd edition" would be ANSI C (C89)... but ofc the spirit is very different
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12:29 < sibiria> crucially, it predates C99, which imo is considered the barrier for modern C
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12:46 < humm> ariadna: the second edition describes C89
12:47 < librecat> humm: oh i was told to finish that book to really get into programming and it really helped me
12:47 < humm> that’s good
12:47 < librecat> only after grinding through every exercise in chapter 1 i could make my first decently sized beginner project which was a zig based minecraft image ediyor
12:48 < librecat> i should finish the whole thinf
12:48 < quinq> Yeah, it's still a good introduction reading
12:48 < quinq> Then you get the other details
12:49 < librecat> quinq: it teaches about algorithims much better than your average youtube tutorial
12:49 < librecat> its a quality beginner's resource that stood the test of time
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12:50 < librecat> honestly after finishing atleast chapter 1 and ideally the whole book you can basically pick up any cool compiled language and make some massive projects
12:50 < librecat> what i did was learn zig syntax after it
12:50 < librecat> and learn a few libraries
12:50 < librecat> and c++ syntax
12:50 < librecat> i didnt go much beyond chapter 1
12:51 < librecat> i learned pointers and structs by doing 
12:52 < librecat> from my perspective, second edition book is like your breakthrough from tutorial hell to productive beginner level programmer that can do some research to finish a small part of his/her project every day and finish massive projects slowly to grow
12:52 < librecat> well that was the case in 2022
12:52 < librecat> now ppl will use chatgpt and tell me it didnt help them
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13:05 < fasecx> do you people have openbsd at work? or use it in a professional environment?
13:05 < surrounder> used to
13:06 < fasecx> what was their use? we only have win+linux and a couple of freebsd people think are linux too so...
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13:07 < librecat> fasecx: right when i found the set of programs to do my school work on openbsd i upgraded my motherboard which ended up having incompatible wifi and audio at the same time
13:07 < surrounder> fasecx: perimiter firewalls
13:07 < surrounder> *perimeter
13:07 < librecat> i could find usb wifi card at the store but not usb sound card yet
13:08 < librecat> i do have samsung usbc headphones but they dont reach the desk from the desktop at the bottom of the desk
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13:09 < sibiria> $9 apple USB-C 3.5mm sound card is fantastic
13:10 < librecat> Ok lemme get one today
13:10 < fasecx> most firewalls are build in top of openbsd or use parts of it, but they are not openbsd as in and people who manage those firewalls dont even know openbsd, which is sad
13:10 < sibiria> practically transparent audio quality, top tier stuff
13:10 < librecat> ok im about to pass by an apple store soon i can get one there
13:11 < librecat> and for wifi i can always usb tether it from an old phone
13:11 < librecat> or start using powerline
13:12 < Minall> librecat: Practically transparent audio quality?, so it is better ot use the jack on the pc?
13:13 < Minall> I have a headphones amplifier and, from there I connect through my jack, and sometimes there's distorsion (may as well be the file), and my objective is to have the best raw possible audio. I also have the apple dondle... Would it be better if I use it?
13:13 < librecat> Minall: the jack on the pc is an alc4080 which is not supported by openbsd yet
13:14 < Minall> Oh, so in terms of audio quality, would it make a difference if it is used instead of a supported one ? 
13:14 < librecat> no idea
13:14 < librecat> Im supposed to be an expert on this but im not
13:15 < Minall> librecat: haha, no worries, I'll also test it, perhaps I can find one reproducible distorsion and do the test
13:15 < sibiria> what matters for the audio quality is the DAC and the rest of the schematic. it's not uncommon that on-board audio picks up a lot of induction noise from nearby components
13:15 < librecat> sibiria: oh like high frequency pcie?
13:15 < sibiria> *usually* you can get around that with a sound card external to the motherboard. USB audio devices are a good option for that
13:15 < librecat> anything with a high throughput on the same pcb right
13:16 < sibiria> CPU/bus noise, usually. often - not always, but often - you can hear CPU "stress" and such in the analog output of the motherboard
13:16 < librecat> yes i do hear that
13:16 < Minall> sibiria: So an external DAC is a must probably... I'll take a look. Since there are so much, is there one that is the most transparent and is OpenBSD supported? <- As I want to listen to flac files 
13:16 < librecat> Especially with bad filtering on the speaker like monitor builtin speaker
13:16 < librecat> ooooooooooooooh
13:17 < librecat> sibiria: its a severe issue for me because i remember any kind of scrolling of the screen will completely distort the builtin audio
13:17 < librecat> so i need a usb dac either way
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13:18 < Minall> I'll be checking soon sndio options, perhaps there's an option to get most of it regardless of how much CPU it costs?, like no resampling (I'm no expert, so I accept recommendations), Not sure even what frames are and if I should care about them... Or even where to check my device supported encoding (perhaps pcidump)?
13:18 < Minall> And well audio thingies tend to be very placebo
13:19 < Minall> But my heart says that sndio audio is better than pipewire, so yeah may be placebo lol
13:19 < Minall> Now I didn't though about using the apple dondle.. I'll take a look and mention how it goes in around 4 hours?
13:19 < librecat> me in 1-2 hours
13:20 < librecat> what is the probability that a random usb wifi 5 dongle works on openbsd
13:20 < sibiria> Minall: apple's USB-C 3.5mm sound card ("adapter" as some call it) is a great option in my experience. very clean audio
13:20 < librecat> sibiria: the one positive of apple moving to usb-c lol
13:20 < librecat> for us openbsd users*
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13:21 < sibiria> and it works under openbsd. it's a standard USB profiles appliance, so no drivers needed on any OS
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13:21 < sibiria> actually, i should test if it really does output audio on openbsd. admittedly i've only had it plugged-in on my openbsd test rig but never played audio on it or recorded with it
13:21 < Minall> librecat: Depends on the model I guess?, unless it is Nvidia (I wonder if they make wifi thingies whatsoever lol)
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13:22 < Minall> Like Yamaha which makes musical instruments, bikes, even cats
13:22 < Minall> sibiria: I'll take a look, thanks!
13:22 < librecat> sibiria: my asus rog splitfire doesnt work on openbsd
13:23 < librecat> it loads the driver but errors during audio playback and doesnt play any audio
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13:34 < oldlaptop> Minall: the best advice for "audio quality" as far as software goes is going to be: Don't worry about it.
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13:36 < oldlaptop> I would bet that even an external DAC is a waste of time and effort in... many, maybe even most situations. (The engineering challenges involved in putting a DAC inside the EM dumpster fire that is a PC case are real, but as a rule the EEs have also done a sufficiently good job with them that mostly it isn't going to matter.)
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13:37 < Minall> oldlaptop: Thatś right, audio tends to be a finicky subject
13:37 < Minall> Too much can happen
13:37 < oldlaptop> It's a real issue, though, so that puts it ahead of... some popular measures.
13:38 < oldlaptop> (like "audiophile-grade" cables)
13:38 < oldlaptop> Resampling is another thing that's technically, theoretically a real issue, but practically speaking if done well you won't notice it.
13:39 < oldlaptop> (IIRC sndiod's manual strongly recommends against forcing it to resample, on the ground that it will not be done well)
13:41 < oldlaptop> realistically... spend US$50-150 on a pair of quality headphones, or a class-D amp and bookshelf speakers, and be happy
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13:42 < oldlaptop> way more relevant than configuration minutae or even USB DACs
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13:44 < Minall> Makes sense. => May be a stupid question already in the manual, now I am not on the OpenBSD pc yet... Does sndio resample? <- Give nthat it reommends against it?
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13:46 < oldlaptop> (the relevant manual would be sndiod(8))
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13:47 < sibiria> librecat, Minall: unfortunately it seems the apple USB-C audio card doesn't work with openbsd. i should've actually tested it before i recommended the device
13:48 < sibiria> it registers volume changes, but seems to get no audio output
13:48 < Minall> sibiria: :O
13:48  * Minall sad
13:49 < Minall> Well, I'll take a look from my side too and update
13:50 < sibiria> to be correct, openbsd manages to make it work intermittently
13:50 < sibiria> sometimes it says "only one clock domain supported", and sometimes it correctly identifies it and generates an audioN device with outputs
13:51 < sibiria> perhaps some race condition or similar
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13:58 < quinq> librecat, agreed:)
13:59 < sibiria> librecat, Minall: it seems openbsd freaks out when the connected earbuds/headphones have a microphone input
13:59 < sibiria> if i use regular headphones that don't couple the microphone ring of the 3.5mm jack, openbsd groks the apple USB-C sound card just fine
14:00 < sibiria> somewhat acceptable situation
14:01 < sibiria> not ideal, but the audio playback does work
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14:06 < Minall> Oh
14:07 < Minall> I have the only headphones so it may work from my side... Which commands did you use to debug this situation (trying to learn how to navigate the system better)
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14:09 < sibiria> i figured that the clock error message i noticed in dmesg's output may have been because of the DAC operating differently when handling audio input (microphone) as well, so i tried with my headphones instead of my handsfree earbuds and noticed the kernel suddenly managed to identify the outputs in the dmesg
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14:10 < sibiria> the kernel will explicitly enumerate outputs and inputs in the dmesg output if it manages to understand the device correctly
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14:19 < Minall> Oh
14:19 < Minall> Interesting
14:19 < Minall> Thanks :D
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14:21 < Minall> See ya in some hours
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14:35 < librecat> I couldnt find the apple one so i got a random one
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15:47 < Bradipo> When I press the enter key in a shell... does the tty receive a \r\n or just \n ?
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15:54 < thrig> there are about a billion termios options for CR LF handling
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17:27 < librecat> sibiria: i got a random one and it worked
17:27 < librecat> not apple
17:27 < librecat> how lucky
17:27 < librecat> Sound quality is worse but it doesnt get distorted
17:27 < librecat> And sound quality is barely good enough for ms
17:28 < librecat> so im happy that i can dailydrive openbsd
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17:38 < oldlaptop> if it's not distorted, in what way would the sound quality be "worse"?
17:39 < Minall> Okay, I found a track with once I get the volume too high, sounds distorted (btw apple dondle not working out of oout the box)
17:39 < Minall> So perhaps I need to tweak sndiod's configuration?
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17:43 < oldlaptop> Minall: That sounds like something might be clipping.
17:43 < oldlaptop> (Depending on what you're calling "distorted".)
17:43 < oldlaptop> I'd look at mixerctl(8) first.
17:44 < Minall> The sound resembles a radio's distorsion in certain parts of the song, not sure if that's what you mean by clipping
17:44 < Minall> What should I check in mixerctl?
17:46 < oldlaptop> It might be one of the controls in there is set such that it allows clipping - either somewhere in software or (depending on what hardware is involved and how lousy it is) maybe even overdriving a real amplifier somewhere
17:46 < Minall> Hmm, that may be happening yes, let me take a look
17:48 < oldlaptop> If you're overdriving a real amplifier, that could be affected by what's connected to it - amplifiers in things like laptops can be picky about impedance of headphones, for instance
17:50 < oldlaptop> this is another reason for USB DACs, I guess - something like sibiria's Apple thingy might be able to drive a given set of headphones (or whatever) better than onboard hardware in a given machine
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17:51 < oldlaptop> one can get an entire little box that's just an analog headphone amplifier
17:51 < Minall> That makes sense, since it doesn't make sense to have the highest volume on the laptop and then on the amplifier....
17:51 < Minall> Though the apple thingy doesn't work so I cannot test this
17:51 < Minall> I'm searching about which settings make sense to lower to avoid clipping
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18:12 < Minall> sibiria: In my case the audio dondle is seen, but I cannot use it yet in sndiod (vlc doesn't allow me to use it). Now I'm reading the sndio docs as this may bvery well be a noobie config that I am missing
18:12 < Minall> (I'm only using headphones)
18:21 < Minall> Okay so, I'm trying to configure the dondle which is in uaudio0 and being seen in dmesg. https://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq13.html
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18:21 < Minall> So I'm trying to use sndioctl server.device=1 (and have tested) other numbers so that until I can see which device is the dondle, no luck yet
18:23 < Minall> Oh, done!. had to tweak a little more
18:30 < Bradipo> Which tweak?
18:31 < Bradipo> sndioctl server.device=1 should be one... but what else?
18:37 < Minall> Bradipo: I think it worked but I didn't hear it, as it had less volume by default I though it was the speaker running
18:38 < Minall> But yeah, it helped a little with clipping, yet it only happnes in high volumes and, I don't hear anything on audio quality so whatever
18:38 < Minall> I wonder if there's an external DAC that fully avoid clipping for my headphones amp
18:40 < oldlaptop> "High volumes" set where?
18:40 < oldlaptop> Some software (notably VLC) will allow you to deliberately risk clipping by setting a volume "over 100%"
18:42 < oldlaptop> (somewhere on the internet is a slashdot thread laughing at Dell for denying warranty claims on their maldesigned hardware on the ground that VLC was used)
18:42 < Minall> oldlaptop: I mean, maximum on the jack output and, vlc is only on 100%, no more than thta
18:42 < Minall> Yet I had some clipping hehe
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18:54 < sibiria> probably because USB audio cards are amplifiers
18:54 < sibiria> they don't output line level audio
18:55 < sibiria> gotta turn the volume down a lot
18:56 < sibiria> the unamplified ones usually market themselves as strictly being just a DAC and not a "headphone adapter"
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19:01 < Posterdati> hi
19:04 < Minall> That makes sense
19:04 < Minall> And yeah it is all about volume
19:05 < Minall> Overall great audio without it though, now I do really wonder about a DAC would do for some of these flac files\
19:05 < Minall> But well I know I'm entering the placebo and audio strange thingies
19:08 < oldlaptop> If you can tell the difference at all, that speaks either very poorly of the built-in DAC you're replacing, very well of the listening environment, speakers, and analog signal path, or both
19:09 < oldlaptop> For that matter, if you can tell the difference (actually tell the difference, in a properly blinded test) between your FLAC files and lossy ones, that almost certainly means the lossy ones are encoded wrong.
19:09 < oldlaptop> (Which commercially-sold MP3s and the like may well be)
19:10 < Minall> I'm using Sennheiser HD 660S2, and ToppingL30II amplifier, and I'm conparing against A Macbook Air with and without the apple dondle, apple odesn't give me clipping and yet I prefer openbsd audio, idk why
19:10 < Minall> but that may be placebo lol
19:10 < Minall> I also compare against vinyl analog but that's another thing
19:11 < Minall> oldlaptop: I have never tested a blind test though, audio can be so finicky that I just trust my heart and know that I am wrong
19:11 < Minall> Vinyl itself being the most limite audio format
19:11 < oldlaptop> it's worth keeping lossless audio files around mainly because it's not actually that big, and gives you flexibility to re-encode to whatever lossy format you want for a given application (make opus for stuff that supports it, mp3 for stuff that doesn't, different bitrates for different size restrictions, whatever)
19:12 < sibiria> i never bother with lossless, and i avoid mp3
19:13 < oldlaptop> Vinyl records are their own separate problem. Strictly speaking, starting from "the same" source material, they're objectively worse. Lots of stuff in that signal path is introducing distortion, etc. even if you're playing a perfectly clean record for the first time.
19:13 < Minall> oldlaptop: For those files I did had made blind tests, and even though I can tell the flac files most of the times, the real difference is that the mastering itself is different, so I prefer lossless for it
19:13 < oldlaptop> Subjectively maybe you like the way it screws up the sound.
19:13 < Minall> oldlaptop: Indeed
19:13 < Minall> And when you add dirtyness and other things each record is not that clean, and will not sound clean either
19:13 < Minall> oldlaptop: yea
19:14 < oldlaptop> (Or maybe a record from the 1970s is produced and mastered differently than an MP3 from the 2020s.)
19:14 < Minall> Some of my preferred ones are some of the most 'used' ones, so may as well sound different in their own well?
19:14 < oldlaptop> You're causing deterioration every time you play the thing. (Strictly speaking.)
19:14 < oldlaptop> Eventually that adds up.
19:15 < Minall> I mean, as of today, vinyl is logically more limited. For very old times where masterings were actually very different because of the loudness wars, then you can find vinyl that's better
19:15 < Minall> But that goes to the path of 48000hz agains 192000hz, can a human tell the sound digitally?
19:15 < Minall> I mean I will test it later with a DAC but, that's because I like playing with sound toys 
19:15 < oldlaptop> (even 50 or 60 years ago some record labels had a reputation for loudness-warring)
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19:16 < Minall> But the audio of Macbook and my current lenovo openbsd pc is quite good and enjoyable
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19:16 < oldlaptop> It's downright miraculous. :)
19:16 < sibiria> apple always put effort into the audio
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19:17 < sibiria> they did the math on their speaker setups in the laptops, too. completely different quality than tin-can PC laptop sound
19:17 < Minall> So it goes more and more into does it really make a difference?... I like to find out because I like playing, but otherwise people can buy super machines and DACs without much improving, and since the mastering is indeed better, and only if they are using low end sound components then they may head the difference
19:17 < sibiria> someone with knowledge of accoustics did their due dilligence
19:17 < Minall> sibiria: Apple sound clean yeas
19:19 < izder456> why is this toot getting as much attention as it is of all my perfectly banger toots? https://ieji.de/@izder456/115402363390135796
19:19 < izder456> I just infodumped about xmessage
19:19 < izder456> its not that crazy
19:19 < Minall> For comparison, connecting my headphones amplifier to my macbook and going full volume (something I can't on OpenBSD for example), introduces 0 clipping and sounds great!
19:19 < Minall> I want to achieve this in OpenBSD of course
19:20 < Minall> Problem is that I am technical but, not about sound... I don't know how to achieve this quality over in an OpenBSD computer with a DAC. It is a Macbook Pro M1 Pro max, and it mentions that it has a very good dac (and it does!)
19:20 < Minall> But I don't whether if I need to buy something for the same in other system?S
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19:34 < librecat> this cheap usbc dac meant for a phone doesnt have the same quality as the builtin but doesnt pick up any noise
19:34 < librecat> that is what i meant
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19:34 < librecat> its literally the cheapest usbc to 3.5mm adaptor i could find
19:34 < librecat> i
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19:35 < sibiria> helps a lot when you put the analog portion outside the PC and with a digital "decoupling" between
19:36 < Minall> librecat: Well I'm not sure 
19:36 < Minall> I'm not sure the issue is noise picking, but voltage difference and the signal getting radio-like interference on big volumes
19:36 < Minall> Sommething that doesn't happen on the most volume of the apple device
19:37 < oldlaptop> "radio-like interference" definitely doesn't sound like clipping, it sounds like noise
19:37 < librecat> yes clipping is what im experiencing
19:37 < librecat> peaks of the audio signal dont seem to be hearable
19:38 < sibiria> i get zero clipping with the apple USB-C audio dongle. shame openbsd is finicky about it
19:38 < oldlaptop> (Maybe you're genuinely hearing the consequences of keeping the DAC in a computer case. That idea would be supported if doing different stuff on the computer causes the noise to change.)
19:40 < librecat> oldlaptop: you are making me want to bring my pc to the electronics lab to analyze with a scope
19:40 < oldlaptop> Sounds like fun.
19:40 < librecat> oldlaptop: yes exactly what ypu described
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19:50 < Reinhilde> put a voltmeter on it. if it's analogue clipping due to voltage drop, well.
19:52 < librecat> Reinhilde: ok lemme dig up my cut audio cable and measure the ac voltage
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19:56 < Reinhilde> i mean on the audio card
19:56 < Reinhilde> if t's a usb type
20:02 < librecat> I dont have a usb voltmeter
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21:00 < Reinhilde> shouldn't need one, if you have some kind of voltmeter you should be able to figure out a way to tap into the rails
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23:01 < Vuokko> I have an Arch linux guest on vmd and it seems to be not liked. I can't even boot 2025.10.1 installation iso while 2025.03.01 boots :(
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23:03 < Vuokko> Is this a known issue and does it have workarounds?
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23:04 < pardis> you'd need to describe the issue before someone can answer that
23:05 < Vuokko> Not much to describe. three lines of messages, last being [    1.307792] mce: Unable to init MCE device (rc: -5)
23:05 < Vuokko>  and then comes[EOT] from console.
23:06 < Vuokko> Older version prints running early hook[udev]
23:07 < Vuokko> and those three lines are same with both installation medias
23:07 < pardis> anything in dmesg or syslog on the host when it happens?
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23:08 < pardis> there is also 'vmctl log verbose'
23:08 < pardis> and you might be able to get more info from the guest kernel by removing the 'quiet' boot option
23:09 < Vuokko> messages has: vm/test: vmd: invalid fault_type 2
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23:14 < Vuokko> OK this doesn't tell anything more except fault type is 2 and it is invalid with verbose logging.
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23:29 < oldlaptop> That information should be useful for digging through the source to figure out what's happening (as, say, a developer might want to do if you filed a real bug report)
23:30 < Vuokko> yep. There is even a code to handle the fault, but it is behind MMIO_NOTYET define which is 0
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--- Log closed Tue Oct 21 00:00:40 2025