--- Log opened Thu Nov 06 00:00:02 2025
00:00 < thrig> (note that on linux this is different unless you mount the filesystem with BSD semantics)
00:00 < rnkn> okay I think I'm following.. /var/www/home/alice is _bliptown:alice?
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00:01 < rnkn> wouldn't that make all files created by the web app (_bliptown) also _bliptown:alice?
00:02 < dg> under that directory, yes
00:02 < rnkn> and they'd need to be 664 for the alice user to edit them?
00:02 < dg> right, but the app can make sure it gets that right
00:02 < dg> it's not asking the user to get permissions right this way around
00:03 < dg> (the app also might have to do some file renaming dances if alice goes and creates some deep directory trees, but it can take back ownership of anything if needed)
00:03 < rnkn> so that app still needs to do some file manipulation as root?
00:04 < dg> no, it doesn't need root once this tree is setup
00:04 < dg> its the owner of the directory
00:04 < rnkn> ah
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00:04 < rnkn> a system script run as root sets up the directory, so that's okay
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00:05 < dg> right, then if it's the user owner it can do anything
00:06 < rnkn> what if the user then creates /var/www/home/bob/foo.md as bob:bob? the app can edit the file since it owns the parent directory..?
00:06 < rnkn> and foo is 644
00:06 < dg> create a foo.md.new, mv foo.md.new foo.md
00:06 < dg> (to be entirely correct it has to deal with some symlink attacks, probably)
00:07 < thrig> ln -s /var/www/home/bob/foo.md /etc/passwd
00:08 < rnkn> haha
00:08 < dg> I mean it should only be running as this special user so the main concern would be users could overwrite other users content
00:08 < dg> or change its config/whatever
00:09 < rnkn> that should be taken care of by app session/auth management
00:09 < thrig> ideally you want protections at multiple levels besides auth
00:10 < rnkn> I may have to ponder this. the consensus seems to be not to use setuid, but dropping the app to the logged in user seems attractive to me. I may just be foolish there.
00:11 < rnkn> unless someone wants to all-caps do not use setuid at me
00:11 < rnkn> ?
00:15 < rnkn> sorry if that sounds like dismissing your advice (which I very much appreciate)
00:17 < dg> the problem with setuid is it means running as root somewhere and sanity checks (is uid one allowed to do this, etc)
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00:22 < rnkn> is there another (safer?) way I can drop the app's privileges from the rc.d user to alice/bob?
00:31 < dg> one way is to use something else like doas or ssh to do it for you
00:31 < dg> but that does mean changing your architecture
00:32 < dg> it is common for daemons doing privsep on openbsd to be architectured in a particular way (https://sha256.net/privsep.html), obviously that is for C not perl, but similar ideas could work too
00:33 < rnkn> I'm still building the architecture so that's fine
00:33 < rnkn> I was thinking doas but thought that might require a line for every user
00:34 < rnkn> ooh good link, thanks :)
00:35 < rnkn> I see /var is mounted nosuid too
00:35 < dg> (in perl there is OpenBSD::Pledge and OpenBSD::Unveil)
00:37 < afresh1> you can run a Mojo app as a FastCGI and as long as it puts its socket into /var/www so httpd can talk to it, the _app_ doesn't need to run chroot'd there (or even from there)
00:38 < afresh1> you can even have SlowCGI exec it as a cgi script if you don't want the memory footprint of having it run all the time and even _that_ doesn't need to be rooted in /var/www
00:38 < afresh1> s/SlowCGI/slowcgi(8)/
00:39 < rnkn> afresh1: does fastcgi help with the user permissions stuff?
00:40 < afresh1> you could have a separate part of the script that runs as root and has permission to switch users that is a separate process from the one that talks to the web
00:41 < afresh1> sadly I haven't had time to write OpenBSD::Imsg yet :-P
00:45 < afresh1> https://gist.github.com/afresh1/558fc0b4dfbeab0fbd59 <- an example FCGI::ProcManger that drops privileges and chroots (I wrote this before pledge and unveil existed though)  You could expand that to create a separate process with a pipe before the privilege drop
00:45 < afresh1> then over the pipe tell it what user to switch to and what file to write.
00:46 < afresh1> (the linux way is just to run everything as root)
00:46 < afresh1> https://perldoc.perl.org/perlipc#Bidirectional-Communication-with-Yourself
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00:47 < afresh1> (OpenBSD has socketpair(2))
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01:00 < thrig> on linux I've had daemons that wrote to a directory then a file change monitor reacted to that. trying to make sudo and pam and web and mail users work was like uh no
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01:08 < rnkn> afresh1: does this need to be fastcgi? can it just be a http webserver?
01:09 < afresh1> I mean, you could just run Starman or whatever, but I usually use httpd with perl as a FastCGI
01:09 < afresh1> but that partly because httpd is serving static content as well
01:11 < rnkn> I'm using nginx as a SSL terminator and reverse proxy to Mojolicious
01:11 < afresh1> then ya, no need for httpd or fastcgi.  Although I'm not as familiar with how you'd do privsep there
01:12 < rnkn> yeah I have to research how the processes work, I think it's simpler for fastcgi
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01:14 < rnkn> I'd like to use OpenBSD::Pledge and OpenBSD::Unveil but my local machine is linux
01:15 < rnkn> maybe I could test if the app is running in "production" mode and then enable them
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01:17 < dg> just do something like: if (eval { require OpenBSD::Pledge; require OpenBSD::Unveil }) { ... }
01:18 < dg> the ... just won't run if the modules aren't there (you'll have to reference the symbols by their full names like OpenBSD::Pledge::pledge or such)
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01:25 < rnkn> this is the only pledge/unveil on cpan and it looks pretty unmaintained https://metacpan.org/pod/Unix::Pledge
01:25 < rnkn> nothing in ports
01:26 < rnkn> just reading this privsep post and I'm thinking... isn't cgit a security nightmare?
01:27 < thrig> https://thrig.me/tmp/pledge-unveil.pl
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01:28 < rnkn> oh I see, it's built in
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01:30 < afresh1> I _should_ figure out how to have it warn and do nothing if pledge/unveil aren't available and put it on the CPAN, but since AFAIK only OpenBSD has those so far, it's down on my list :-)
01:32 < Bradipo> Does this seem like a good idea?  Makes me wonder how the cabal gets away with it: https://www.cscdbs.com/blog/its-official-47-day-digital-certificates-will-be-the-norm-by-2029/
01:34 < thrig> yeah I have a tcl module where pledge and unveil are no-ops elsewhere
01:38 < rnkn> thrig: I think I already know the answer but I should use pledge/unveil in conjuction with setuid and chroot?
01:41 < dg> it would be nice to have something that could abstract landlock and unveil in similar ways
01:42 < dg> (although landlock suffers the usual linux problem of trying to do too much in one thing)
01:42 < dg> the main difficulty is landlock nests (i.e. you can specify a policy, then specify a policy that locks that down further, which unveil doesn't support)
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02:06 < phy1729> rnkn: aiui OpenBSD::Pledge and Unveil are in base
02:06 < phy1729> bah missed that line in backlog
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02:32 < goldfishdev> hello!
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03:35 < adonis> I need to give rw access to the nut (network ups tools) user _nut to /dev/usb* and /dev/ugen*.. I can do that now, but will it not be reset on restart of the system? Is there a way to maintain that?
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03:49 < thrig> devices tend to be fiddled with only when /dev/MAKEDEV is run
03:50 < adonis> thrig: isn't that on reboot?
03:51 < thrig> an easy way to test would be record the perms of a device, change those perms, then reboot
03:52 < adonis> yea, for now I'm only assuming they will be reset, I've yet to test
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03:55 < mischief> does nut not start as root and drop priv later?
03:56 < adonis> nut itself does yea, but libusb driver which is used to do usb scans is run as the unprivileged user _nut I believe.
03:56 < mischief> if you want to get sneaky you could make your own private device nodes with mknod
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03:57 < adonis> mischief: that would imply that I can modify nut and tell it which dev nodes to scan though right? I don't believe I can do that.
03:58 < mischief> dunno, just an idea. never tried myself.
03:59 < adonis> chatgpt advised I make a small script on boot via /etc/rc.local that simply applies the correct permissions :)
03:59 < adonis> not sure if that’s an ok thing to do, even if it works..
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04:06 < dg> seems fine, better than overengineered udev rules
04:07 < dg> it's also probably not needed, MAKEDEV is only usually run for upgrades, etc.
04:08 < dg> but then again whether you remember to fix the permissions after an upgrade... so something to fix them isn't going to hurt
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04:18 < adonis> dg: ok, I'll go with the fix perms after boot approach
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06:01 < rnkn> some progress! I have successfully got my Mojolicious app to chroot after launch
06:01 < rnkn> now just the privileges
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06:13 < rnkn> but, if it's running as root, does that make much difference?
06:15 < rnkn> AI says it's fine
06:15 < pardis> well, if the AI says so
06:15 < pardis> root can trivially escape a chroot, so if you're fine with it running as root then you can undo your chroot work
06:24 < rnkn> pardis: way to throw a wet blanket on things (thanks, that's good to know)
06:25 < rnkn> pardis: how does root escape? just exits out?
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06:29 < rnkn> never mind I'm reading about it now
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09:00 < rnkn> if I wanna daemonize a process in an rc.d script do I just stick & at the end?
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09:06 < sonya> or pass arguments as 'process_flags' to instruct binary work in background, if there's such an options..
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09:08 < IcePic> yeah, its often better if the program can daemonize itself, that probably means it knows not to vomit output on console and syslog in a decent way and so on
09:08 < IcePic> if you stick & to a program it will background, but retain stdin/stdout/stderr and so on
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09:09 < pardis> see rc_bg in rc.subr(8)
09:09 < sonya> https://book.hacktricks.wiki/en/linux-hardening/privilege-escalation/escaping-from-limited-bash.html
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09:48 < rnkn> pardis: thank you :)
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09:51 < rnkn> should I just not bother with this chroot business and just use OpenBSD::Pledge/Unveil?
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10:09 < IcePic> chroot is one part of the puzzle, adding pledge/unveil makes it better
10:10 < IcePic> escaping a chroot often involves making a devicenode or something and being root to write into it or something like that, so chrooting so stuff isn't available and the pledge:ing so you cant create new device nodes or other special files) is a good combo
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10:29 < k0ga> ls
10:29 < k0ga> ups
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10:30 < IcePic> ksh: ups: not found
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10:43 < inz> IcePic, too soon
10:44 < IcePic> It was still better than "that is my root pw also!"
10:44 < TommyC> su -
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10:44 < TommyC> p33p33p00p00
10:44 < TommyC> oops
10:45 < IcePic> pfft, only an idiot would have a password like that
10:46 < inz> Yeah, hunter2 is the only true password
10:48 < IcePic> it shows as ******* here.
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11:27 < remiliascarlet> My web password is: ****************************************
11:27 < remiliascarlet> My super user password is:
11:29 < remiliascarlet> (For those we don't get it, the joke is that that's how passwords are displayed in both cases.)
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11:46 < sonya> the only true password is 'password'©™. ohters - are cheap (chinese) fakes, imitations and dull attempts to be a 'real thing'..
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11:48 < IcePic> "I bought my password on temu"
11:50 < IcePic> I then sent it to 19 differernt "test your pw" and none said it was being used or leaked 
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12:27 < Reinhilde> lolwut
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13:16 < IcePic> Reinhilde: old joke from here: https://bash-org-archive.com/?244321
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14:01 < oldlaptop> IcePic: Hard to find a password that safe.
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16:33 < mordac> rip bash.org
16:34 < Bradipo> bash.org drop off the network?
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16:35 < mordac> if the network is the tcp/ip network, yes
16:35 < Bradipo> Hahaha, well, TCP/IP is working.
16:35 < Bradipo> I get 200 response, but the body is empty.
16:36 < Bradipo> Content-length is 0.  Interesting.
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17:07 < visl> does anyone off hand know what it would take to get wayland support in chromium, or why it isn't there? as far as i can tell it's just an additional config flag. 
17:09 < byteskeptical> your welcome to rebuild it with said config flag in ports. I would be surprised if that was the only change necessary though.
17:11 < visl> yea that was my hunch as well. before i dedicated hours of my CPU maxed out compiling it i figured i'd see if there's already a learned lesson including the flag
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17:27 < byteskeptical> wayland is fairely greenfield so there may be some low hanging fruit like simple flag inclusion but it may also and more probably be a larger endevour.
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19:30 < Posterdati> hi
19:31 < Posterdati> so that old box, the ibm eserver xseries 225 (petrol)
19:31 < Posterdati> is working just fine with OpenBSD 7.8
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19:39 < fro> cool
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19:42 < fro> any pictures?
19:45 < Posterdati> fro: I can provide them tomorrow!
19:46 < Posterdati> just installed gnusteps this afternoon
19:47 < Posterdati> consider that with windows 2003 server screen resolution was 800x600, with OpenBSD 1024x768
19:47 < Posterdati> :)
19:47 < Posterdati> and 1280x1024
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20:23 < echelon> is it possible to create a pf table with just the pfctl command, and without using the pf.conf file?
20:26 < thrig> what happened when you tried
20:28 < echelon> well i don't even know what the command would be
20:29 < echelon> https://man.openbsd.org/pfctl only documents how to get the list of tables
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20:30 < thrig> that's one interpretation of that documentation
20:33 < echelon> # pfctl -t <test> -T add 127.0.0.0/0
20:33 < echelon> ksh: cannot open test: No such file or directory
20:34 < nologin> # pfctl -t test -vTshow
20:34 < nologin> echelon, no <>
20:35 -!- nologin is now known as sonya
20:36 < echelon> pfctl: Table does not exist
20:36 < echelon> oh, this worked.. pfctl -t test -T add 127.0.0.1
20:36 < sonya> hmm
20:36 < sonya> ok
20:37 < sonya>  add            Add one or more addresses to a table. Automatically create a persistent table if it does not exist.
20:37 < sonya> ^
20:37 < echelon> thanks!
20:37 < sonya> np
20:38 < echelon> so it's not possible to initialize the table with an empty set?
20:40 < echelon> i'm basically having to do an add and a delete operation
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20:46 < sonya> echelon, pfctl -t test -T add
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20:47 < sonya> 1 table created. 0/0 addresses added.
20:47 < echelon> ah! i thought an argument was required as it said "Add one or more"
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21:26 -!- nekobit is now known as notnekobit
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22:08 -!- szilard- is now known as szilard
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22:14 -!- hexZoN3 is now known as psy32nd
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22:50 -!- iamacat is now known as two_nekobits
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--- Log closed Fri Nov 07 00:00:03 2025