--- Log opened Tue Dec 02 00:00:38 2025
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01:04 < ssm_> Do I need to restart smtpd after certificate renewal?
01:13 < thrig> acme-client thrig.me && echo rcctl restart httpd smtpd | at now + 1 minute
01:19 < ssm_> thrig: acme-client(1) says httpd should take reload if certs change, not restart - which smtpd doesn't support; which is why I'm asking
01:21 < Bradipo> I always restart anyway.
01:22 < Bradipo> My SMTP daemon doesn't need a restart or even a reload on certificate change because it spawns a new daemon with each new connection.  So they automatically pick up the new cert.
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01:49 < mischief> does smtpd even support inetd mode
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02:12 < thrig> I still like to restart for various reasons
02:16 < fro> restarting is healthy
02:19 < oldlaptop> I'm reliably informed that reboots are very bad, because they prevent the accumulation of years of uptime.
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05:29 < Bradipo> Au contraire, reboots are good for proving that your system still works.
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09:35 < bsandro> every reboot puts noticeable stress on hardware + rotary hard drives wear down on start-stop cycles mostly. So yeah, I'm with oldlaptop on this one, uptime is good :)
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09:51 < morte> for some weird reason, after installing openbsd I'm missing the "~" character, if I press it on my keyboard it's just putting "<" or ">" if I press shift and that key
09:51 < morte> anyone has an idea?
09:52 < morte> the keyboard layout is set to english us
09:52 < morte> because that's what my laptop (apple macbook air 2014ish) has 
09:55 < quinq> n/14
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09:56 < sibiria> bsandro: but this isn't the 90s anymore. modern HDDs can do thousands of start/stop cycles without problems. but why would they power down on a reboot? they shouldn't
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13:07 < oldlaptop> they're functionally obsolete now, but laptop hard drives would routinely spin down when idle and easily build up tens/hundreds of thousands of spin-up/down cycles
13:08 < quinq> And is that a problem?
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13:17 < sibiria> imo not really. modern brushless AC syncron motors are functionally maintenance-free for decades
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13:18 < sibiria> but eventually they do "dry out"!
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13:21 < IcePic> only after you put important data on them.
13:21 < IcePic> if you have crap only, they last forever
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13:22 < sibiria> eternal quantum weirdness. or as we say in swedish, "you've got your ass in the rear no matter what way you turn"
13:24 < quinq> jaja
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13:42 < oldlaptop> <sibiria> imo not really. modern brushless AC syncron motors are functionally maintenance-free for decades
13:42 < oldlaptop> at least according to the spec sheets they would get themselves up to the rated 'lifetime' in terms of head load/unload cycles pretty quickly
13:43 < oldlaptop> (relatively quickly, anyway.)
13:44 < oldlaptop> Anyhow, clearly not an important reason to avoid reboots, not compared to the horrendous impact on your all-important uptime numbers and associated internet street cred.
13:44 < ecbrown> my only reason for not rebooting first is because its inconvenient to access to e.g. type in crypto password
13:45 < ecbrown> a good reboot solves a lot of problems
13:45 < ecbrown> "stress" is bs
13:47 < quinq> oldlaptop, that's indeed the most important aspect
13:47 < oldlaptop> I totally buy the argument that it's more stressful for spinning HDDs to spin up and down (as in a cold boot or so) than to stay running, and to some extent thermal cycling for other components could be more stressful. What's... questionable is the idea that it matters in normal use
13:48 < quinq> Also OpenBSD is horrible for that, forcing us to kill our uptime every ~6 months
13:48 < quinq> Maybe it could be part of the rules that rebooting for upgrade doesn't count as an actual reboot
13:48 < oldlaptop> maybe power cycling all the HDDs daily for ten years is a bad idea, but for the odd kernel/libc/whatever patch?
13:49 < sibiria> my only gripe with rebooting is that openbsd is kinda slow to boot up compared to linux. other than that i reboot as soon as pending kernel patch demands it
13:49 < pardis> if OpenBSD had ksplice the uptime numbers wouldn't be a problem
13:49  * oldlaptop will expectantly wait for ksplice, just after ZFS is ported and LKMs go back in
13:50 < pardis> I'm sure it will work reliably with no disadvantages, too
13:50 < quinq> Don't forget about mount bind and tmpfs
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13:57 < MelMalik> ksplice as in the literal extention or the concept?
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13:57 < MelMalik> extension
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13:58 < sibiria> the concept i guess. only a handful of linux distributions actually use ksplice
13:58 < sibiria> i remember we had it on RHEL at work years ago
13:58 < sibiria> that's the last time i saw it
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14:35 < quinq> AFAIK ksplice is the Oracle implementation, but there's also some SUSE and RedHat systems
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20:20 < ecbrown> i've noticed that there's GCC 8 and a newer GCC in ports.  wondering if there's a reason that the older version is retained
20:21 < ecbrown> (e.g. R depends on GCC 8)
20:21 < avemestr> ecbrown: Licensing, IIRC.
20:22 < ecbrown> ah ok, thanks
20:23 < avemestr> Good overview: https://www.cambus.net/the-state-of-toolchains-in-openbsd/
20:24 < avemestr> The blog is full of info on toolchains happenings in OpenBSD.
20:27 < Bradipo> If only the page didn't use fonts that look like it was designed for someone on a phone.
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20:32 < ecbrown> unfortunately it doesn't talk about rationale for the GCC >8 split, just GCC 4.2.1 to clang
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20:54 < fro> that blog is super outdated
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21:59 < vortexx> ecbrown: some things need gcc8 to build, some can be built on newer versions, is the usual rational. In ports it's not so much a licensing rationale, more a support older software one
22:00 < vortexx> s/rational/rationale
22:02 < ecbrown> thx vortexx this makes sensee
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22:29 < thrig> or you install gcc whatever and build R yourself to avoid the old gcc
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22:38 < ecbrown> i may have to, unable to install a key package and wonder if gcc is too old 
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22:40 < ecbrown> (it also doesn't like clang)
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22:48  * ecbrown sighs.  installing monitoring tool sysutils/btop on a fresh system, 220 packages later and still going...
22:49 < ryan> o/~ depend on meee, you can depend on meee ohhh you can depend on depend on depend on meeee o/~
22:49 < thrig> there has been some fuss about supply chain attacks recently
22:50 < sibiria> openbsd's package "flavors" are unfortunately notorious for being the one does-it-all type with long dependency tentacles
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23:00 < dg> it also looks like the only reason btop pulls in all that is to update the gtk icon cache, which if the system doesn't run x11 apps is likely not even used...
23:00 < dg> this is where rpm style triggers are kind of useful, trigger if the package is installed, else if that package gets installed it will do a full cache rebuild on install
23:00 < dg> so you don't have to depend on it directly
23:08 < mischief> ecbrown: i'm a htop fan myself, though there's no fancy braile-emoji charts
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23:32 < ecbrown> regrettably it doesn't have sound
23:35 < mischief> btop has..sound?
23:36 < ecbrown> </sarcasm>
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--- Log closed Wed Dec 03 00:00:39 2025