--- Log opened Sun Dec 14 00:00:05 2025
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00:13 < housemate> do you guys like penguins?
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00:16 < mischief> fugu only
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00:35 < vortexx> nvi to the rescue, once again
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00:39 < Qual> i'm running obsd in a virtual machine on trixie, does vmm/vmd work? because when i do `vmctl console example` like in the FAQ it shows  "Connected to /dev/ttyp2 (speed 115200)" and it doesn't exhibit the install menu of the install78.iso then after awhile it outputs it's rebooting, also i can't leave the serial console
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00:41 < mischief> nested kvm? never tried it
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00:44 < Qual> i wonder, you guys on bare metal when you run `vmctl console example` it's supposed to show the install menu, right?
00:49 < sibiria> if you boot the miniroot or full install image, yes
00:50 < Qual> i see. thanks :)
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01:01 < vortexx> Qual: unofficial but widely used docs for using vmm: https://openbsd.amsterdam/onboard.html
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01:50 < Qual> vortexx: interesting
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02:11 < f451> hi, does anyone run 7.8 on a rpi5? if so, are you getting expected speeds for the ethernet in iperf3? like =>940Mbit
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02:24 < vortexx> not many here do
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02:24 < vortexx> many try to install but not always with success (usually because lack of accessories)
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02:46 < f451> ty
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12:42 < f451> openbsd 7.8 runs v nicely on the pi4b. i have it as a desktop backup/replacement, accessible usually through tunnelled vnc but also via the usual hdmi&keybd. Ive not worked out the wireless yet though, not the onboard one
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12:48 < f451> it gets 172 Mbits/sec in random iperf3 test though. I need to try again when the network is quiet
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12:51 < f451> id expect the pi5 to be faster esp with anything ssl or openvpn
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13:34 < polarian> f451: I have rpi4b used as a router on OpenBSD (coincidentally enough, my talk in securing your network with openbsd at FOSDEM 2026 was accepted last night), with wireguard connected to the rpi4b I can usually pull ~600mbps consistently to the integrated broadcom phy 
13:35 < polarian> I do not know if the boardcom chip is the bottleneck (its meant to be gigabit) or whether the OpenBSD driver is the bottleneck, as I cant push/pull more than 600mbps through the integrated ethernet port
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13:41 < sibiria> combination of openbsd's networking and the driver. i've seen linux hit the 940 mbit/s limit on a pi4
13:41 < xse> f451: wireless speeds ?
13:42 < xse> from experience on pi4b when you use the default uboot the cpu is basically stuck at 600mhz on all cores
13:44 < xse> i have not tested myself in years but reconfirmed it somewhat recently
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13:46 < xse> f451: there you go pftf/rpi4 "Wireguard performance shot up to 571 Mbps up and 481 Mbps down" -> https://www.reddit.com/r/openbsd/comments/1mqutxo/comment/n8vm70b/
13:48 < polarian> sibiria: well then it is not the hardware issue then :)
13:48 < polarian> sibiria: openbsd network stack isn't as fast as freebsd (idk how it compares to linux, I know *BSD network stacks are much leaner and technically faster) but it still is fast enough 
13:49 < polarian> I have ran a laptop as a router, and easily pulled 1gbps from its ports
13:49 < polarian> USB 3.0 can do 5gbps, so provided the usb nic is decent (which is rare but still) you could pull gigabit through the usb port provided the driver support is there 
13:49 < polarian> and 3.1 can do 10gbps
13:50 < polarian> although is only really supported by newer hardware
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13:50 < polarian> so I guess the issue would be within the bse driver 
13:50 < sibiria> imo, today, openbsd is fast enough. i can cap 2.5 GbE on relatively weak x86 hardware. i've always gotten more throughput than i have internet bandwidth
13:50 < polarian> sibiria: im limited by the bse interface on my rpi :)
13:50 < polarian> because I use bse for LAN and axen for WAN 
13:50 < polarian> (axen is for a usb nic)
13:51 < polarian> my WAN is only 76/18
13:51 < polarian> so I dont need to worry about 100mbps+ 
13:51 < polarian> I will be getting a carrier upgrade at the end of this year and that will then require me to rethink my setup
13:51 < polarian> that and the fact I will be doing a talk at fosdem to convince people to throw away their isp routers and to use openbsd 
13:51 < polarian> (the talk is focused on security, im far from the best at networking)
13:52 < polarian> plus BSD network configuration is the best thing I have worked with, I think both rc.conf and hostname.if trumps the numerous ways Linux does network configuration and the numerous bloated network managers they have.
13:52 < polarian> rc.conf I think is a little crude, and is annoying to work with
13:53 < polarian> hostname.if is by far the best thing I have ever played with, it just is so flexible and nice to work with, and easy to back up, hostname.* in /etc can easily be backed up with /etc/pf.conf and /var/unbound/etc/unbound.conf 
13:53 < sibiria> runit (used by void linux and a few more) is a tad more elegant, and would still fit well with openbsd's simplicity and cleanliness
13:54 < polarian> unlike annoying off the shelf solutions, I can recover from a router failure or migrate in literal minutes 
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13:54 < polarian> any host can be a router provided it has 2+ nics, all I have to do is install OpenBSD, and install the configs, start the services (and add the dhcpd flags) and boom
13:54 < polarian> recovered
13:55 < polarian> apart from maybe mikrotek and enterprise-grade gear, I have not yet seen a consumer solution which is as easy to recover from as just using OpenBSD
13:55 < polarian> (if there is one lmk :P)
13:55 < polarian> sibiria: I liked runit, but I disliked void. I asked to patch the docs and they demanded I use github, I offered to send a patch and I didn't want to use github and they basically told me to fuck off.
13:56 < polarian> I dont like being made to jump through hoops to contribute, im giving up my time for this and they treat it like they are entitled to it, so I left and havent touched void since.
13:58 < ssm_> alpine's better anyways
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14:09 < polarian> ssm_: why tf are you here then? ;P
14:09 < polarian> ohhh
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14:09 < polarian> better than void? or better than OpenBSD?
14:09 < polarian> pick carefully >:)
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14:17 < ssm_> void ofc
14:20 < o0x1eef> No Linux is better than BSD but if I had to use Linux, void would be my first choice
14:24 < ssm_> alpine works (mostly) good in vmm when I'm testing linux portability for my projects that need portability
14:25 < ssm_> only major issue which someone else also documented here is powering off the vm is sometimes buggy and you need to force it off, which can make the filesystem state inconsistent. can write a script to unmount everything and mark root readonly maybe
14:25 < sotov1ch> The alpine installer reminds me on OpenBSD. The Installer is almost the same installer of OpenBSD (from the UI)
14:26 < ssm_> sotov1ch: unless you want to change the fs type which then it's a huge pita
14:27 < sotov1ch> "huge pita"? i don't know what that should mean.
14:27 < ssm_> pita == pain in the ass
14:31 < sotov1ch> Ahhh lol.
14:32 < sotov1ch> Yeah.
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14:36 < ssm_> pita also == tasty
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14:54 < zbcm> dejavu
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15:48 < sotov1ch> Yeah. That's what i thought first.
15:48 < polarian> I rather just avoid Linux 
15:48 < polarian> although FreeBSDs constantly trying to be Linux 
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15:49 < polarian> on another note I am so fed up of Linux projects using anubis
15:49 < polarian> constantly having to do POW
15:50 < polarian> OpenBSD sites rarely do this afaik, maybe because OpenBSD sysadmins know how to utilise firewalls to filter out the vast majority of bots without POW
15:50 < polarian> and as for most tech companies, they are already behind cloudflare 
15:52 < zbcm> what a firewall can do is limited no?
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16:11 < sotov1ch> polarian, i currently using NixOS as my daily driver since i need few programms that are neccesary for me currently. But i don't like Linux at all because it has so much nonsense in the kernel and i not a "mainstream" person and i like to go with not-popular OS'.
16:11 < sotov1ch> e.g. DVD Ripping
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16:16 < ssm_> optical drive not supported by cd(4) or similar?
16:17 < ssm_> we ship cdio(1) though I haven't used it personally
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16:19 < ssm_> ffmpeg has a dvdvideo format, don't know if it works with our device files
16:19 < ssm_> but if it can that's basically as good as any video editor and then some
16:19 < sotov1ch> No No, i mean i like to use e.g. Handbrake and MakeMKV. But maybe i run on my Home Server MakeMKV. Ripping the DVD's on my Home Server and transcoding it on my desktop
16:19 < thrig> tug twice on rope to be pulled out of the ffmpeg manual
16:20 < ssm_> handbrake is a just a frontend to ffmpeg I think
16:20 < sotov1ch> yes? 
16:21 < sotov1ch> i still new to this dvd ripping thing. i just have a big lib of dvd's and just want to have it on my home server so i can stream it and getting rid of any stream platforms.
16:22  * sotov1ch hate stream subscriptions
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17:25 < f451> polarian: ty
17:26 < f451> i'm planning to get another pi5/16GB
17:28 < thrig> subscribe now to stdin and we'll throw in stderr, free! yours for only 4.99 per month!
17:28 < f451> LOL
17:30 < sotov1ch> What's the topic. i restarted my router by accident
17:30 < f451> polarian: i thought it was just me thinking the FBSD linuxing, lol
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17:47 < vortexx> polarian: all your grievances about linux can go in #openbsd-social you know I'm sure :P
17:51 < polarian> lol
17:51 < polarian> f451: no its been going on for ages 
17:51 < polarian> pkgbase is a decade-long effort
17:52 < polarian> but also other smaller thingd 
17:52 < polarian> such as them using LinuxKPI to import Linux kernel modules 
17:52 < polarian> iirc OpenBSD writes their own 
17:52 < f451> yeah for me thats alarming as a longtime fbsd user
17:52 < polarian> especially since the whole GPL controversy a few decades ago
17:52 < polarian> f451: yeah I am compiling from src now 
17:53 < polarian> freebsd-update is deprecated, and delta updates will be removed in 16.0
17:53 < polarian> (2 years time)
17:53 < polarian> so I may as well modify my stack to compile from source and not rely on the distribution method 
17:53 < polarian> the one problem is new freebsd installs will be pkgbase by default, which means you have to revert it back which will be painful
17:53 < f451> yeah i raised this in a thread on one of the lists
17:54 < polarian> so I am also looking into ways now to install freebsd without the installation media
17:54 < f451> depkgbasify
17:54 < polarian> which from my discussions in #freebsd 
17:54 < polarian> make distributeworld goes to /, and make distributekernel goes to /boot
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17:54 < polarian> afaik thats the entire base installed then 
17:54 < polarian> you just need to do the other setup like tz, hostname etc manually
17:54 < polarian> kinda reminds me of arch linux 
17:55 < polarian> I was interested a while ago to do a openbsd install from scratch 
17:55 < polarian> arch-linux/gentoo style
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17:56 < f451> it will come as a shock to longtime fbsd users who can no longer go from following releng to stable and back just by building the appropiate world
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17:57 < f451> so my backup desktop is openbsd 7.8 on rpi4
17:57 < polarian> ah cool
17:57 < f451> actual desktop has nvidia graphics only so im stuck
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17:57 < polarian> freebsd is solid for desktop
17:57 < polarian> it has better support
17:58 < polarian> OpenBSD I think gives more of a minimal secure desktop but has software support issues
17:58 < polarian> so I think for OpenBSD you have to be very minimalist 
17:58 < f451> rpi4 desktop accessed via tigervnc. it uses either xfce4 or windowmaker
17:58 < polarian> hmm
17:58 < polarian> hows the performance
17:59 < polarian> the issue I had with vnc is its always got a notable latency delay
17:59 < f451> it's speedy, surprisingly so
17:59 < polarian> it pisses me off
17:59 < polarian> I dont like moving my cursor and then it taking a fraction of a second to move on screen 
17:59 < polarian> but tbh I often use remote machines over ssh
17:59 < f451> not for me its minimal. i access it over the lan through a ssh tunnel
17:59 < polarian> only a few gui apps are needed for me
18:00 < polarian> one of them unfortunately is firefox
18:00 < polarian> but thats an evil we all have to swallow
18:00 < f451> yep. how did you access the vnc?
18:00 < polarian> I havent done remote vnc for years
18:00 < polarian> I have done it locally
18:00 < polarian> and I can still notice the delay
18:00 < polarian> thus never thought about remote vnc 
18:01 < f451> i do it like this
18:01 < polarian> I will be doing local vnc again soon, although you have got me interested in popping it on my server instead and doing it via a ssh tunnel
18:01 < polarian> reason?
18:01 < polarian> I need a kotlin dev env
18:01 < polarian> which is not possible on Linux 
18:01 < f451> ssh -q -f -N -L 5900:localhost:5900 f451@rpi4
18:01 < polarian> jetbrains intellij is required, and gradle refuses to build gradle without kotlin-native, which os-checks and errors on platform "freebsd"
18:02 < polarian> but as its a dev env, more resources is good
18:02 < polarian> sooo
18:02 < polarian> you gave me the idea
18:02 < f451> then tigervnc client localhost:5900
18:02 < f451> heh;)
18:02 < polarian> slap arch linux on a vm using bhyve 
18:02 < polarian> then I can use the higher compute of my server 
18:02 < polarian> my laptop is a E6430 
18:02 < polarian> so it has a ivy bridge cpu
18:03 < polarian> which is quite slow, but also if it clocks up on compiles, I can burn through batteries
18:03 < f451> plenty powerful enough
18:03 < polarian> not for intellij 
18:03 < polarian> that thing kills even newer cpus
18:03 < polarian> giant java app
18:04 < polarian> and then compiling kotlin is more resource intensive than Java 
18:04 < f451> java has always been just a massive hog
18:05 < polarian> f451: there is one downside for vnc though 
18:05 < polarian> requires 24/7 network access
18:05 < polarian> and is not good for on the go 
18:05 < f451> whys that
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18:05 < polarian> because things like train wifi dops and comes back 
18:05 < polarian> on local dev this isnt an issue
18:05 < polarian> via vnc it means you loose connection constantly 
18:05 < f451> well for that you use mosh
18:06 < f451> its not a vnc connection
18:06 < f451> its a ssh one
18:06 < polarian> never needed mosh 
18:06 < polarian> people moan about ssh 
18:06 < f451> mosh is designed for intermittent connections
18:06 < polarian> but I have ssh'd on intermediate connection and its come and gone but its never really disconnected 
18:06 < polarian> yeah I know
18:07 < polarian> my point was I never felt the need for it
18:07 < polarian> but it is an option
18:07 < polarian> the issue is, at least in the UK, when the network is lost it can be lost for some time
18:07 < polarian> so mosh wont help there
18:08 < polarian> but anyways for the most part mosh or not, internet on the go generally sucks
18:08 < f451> i dunno, i think the timeout till lost can be set. not experimented with that element though
18:08 < polarian> when I am on the go I usually just use my laptop offline 
18:08 < f451> it does. on the train though, or 4G, mosh is the way to go ;)
18:09 < polarian> you know what would be cool
18:09 < polarian> job queuing 
18:09 < polarian> eg: "I have no internet right now, but I can queue a few git commands for when my laptop next can send a packet"
18:09 < vortexx> I do wonder if waterfox could be built on OpenBSD. That's what I replaced firefox with on linux
18:09 < polarian> whats waterfox
18:09 < f451> brb, dinner :D
18:10 < f451> librewolf ftw
18:10 < polarian> just sounds like librewolf but more privacy focused while librewolf was more security focused!?!?
18:10 < polarian> I just use firefox
18:10 < polarian> I dont find these forks useful
18:10 < vortexx> polarian: a project to do firefox minus the "ad telemetry" that firefox has now and also more privacy focused
18:11 < polarian> the thing is update speed is important for security
18:11 < polarian> with forks you give up speed of updates, as they are often not the priority, for extra hardening
18:12 < polarian> plus you can do most of this stuff with about:config
18:12 < polarian> and editing the settings 
18:14 < polarian> f451: "Mosh does not support X forwarding or the non-interactive uses of SSH, including port forwarding."
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18:22 < ClaudioM> Hi all. I have a question about building from the /usr/src tree. I've been trying to resolve an issue with strftime where some changes were made that now cause MATE's clock applet to show "_I" in the hour portion of a 12-hour clock. Apparently, this is happening because of some changes made to strftime to support musl. I e-mailed misc@ some time ago about it: 
18:22 < ClaudioM> https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=176174499723525&w=2
18:24 < ClaudioM> I was curious to know if the /usr/src tree needs to be built in its entirety or if it's possible to build just a particular part of the /usr/src tree, in my case being strftime which I believe it part of libc IIRC. From what the obsd documentation says, I get the impressions that it needs to be built entirely, not partially.
18:24 < ClaudioM> I know that /usr/ports can be built per port. but wasn't sure about sections in /usr/src. Any clarification is greatly appreciated.
18:25 < phy1729> you can cd to lib/libc and run make there
18:26 < ClaudioM> That's what I had done, but was getting errors for some reason when building and it never completed.
18:27 < ClaudioM> But at least your answer clarifies that I can build just one part and not the entire src tree
18:27 < ClaudioM> Thanks.
18:27 < ClaudioM> I'll try and troubleshoot why I'm getting make errors, and come back here if I can't figure it out. Thanks agian.
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19:32 < f451> polarian: huh - i didn't realise that!
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19:37 < cgnarne> yeah. all those firefox forks aren't really useful. the best thing to do is to consider the modern web and all the software connected to it hostile and treat it that way
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19:42 < thrig> burner laptop
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19:44 < cgnarne> yes. use it once then burn a cup of thermite on top of it. only way to be sure
19:48 < f451> polarian: my bad. i was thinking of autossh
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20:04 < thrig> I guess orbital nukes are too expensive
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20:08 < ssm_> arkenfox works with www/firefox-esr
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20:09 < ssm_> requires a bit of tedious manually updating, but thankfully firefox-esr is esr
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20:10 < ssm_> polarian: I recommend looking through some of the stuff arken userjs disables, it's probably worse than you think
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--- Log closed Mon Dec 15 00:00:06 2025