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05:08 < Qual> IcePic: thank you so much, i got the virtual obsd host with obsd guest internet access to work ;)
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12:56 < librecat> Does openbsd come with lua
12:56 < librecat> iirc no
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12:57 < librecat> im trying to make a source  package manager and i decided to use lua for package syntax
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12:58 < librecat> the project is between being a dream and being an attempt right now
12:59 < ln43> librecat: do you mean something similar to slackbuilds for Slackware? What do you mean precisely by source package manager?
13:00 < librecat> ln43: i want to make something like slackbuilds yes
13:00 < librecat> im inspired more by gentoo though
13:01 < librecat> im pretty sure i will seperate binary and source handling
13:01 < librecat> because having a whole source based dependency resovler is not good for older hardware
13:02 < librecat> Its much easier to make packages compatible with existing managers like pkg_add or pacman 
13:02 < librecat> ln43: if i want to explain better i want to combine ports and dpb into a c+lua system
13:04 < librecat> Design of Lua part is close to done but im not the best programmer so im hitting many walls
13:04 < librecat> https://git.disroot.org/librecat/librepackage
13:05 < librecat> but im not gonna give up and write the best c code as i learn how to write certain types of code and best practices
13:05 < librecat> Also i wont write everything myself
13:05 < librecat> libcurl, libarchive, libressl, libgit2 etc
13:05 < librecat> good libraries
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13:07 < ln43> librecat: What you don't already have with ports?
13:08 < librecat> ln43: sharing common logic in packages?
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13:09 < librecat> but i think its possible and works exactly like my lua setup
13:09 < librecat> whatever is imported last redefines last and thus takes priority right
13:12 < librecat> ln43: ok i know what i dont have, makefiles and shell scripts are not easy to parse but powerful. Config file syntax is easy to parse but limiting so the lightest dynamic language makes for the best package syntax
13:13 < librecat> lua is easy to embed and lightweight but still powerful
13:15 < ln43> librecat: embed where?
13:15 < librecat> ln43: embed in package manager
13:15 < librecat> or build system/sandbox
13:16 < ln43> librecat: do you want to use an existing package manager? which one?
13:17 < librecat> ln43: i thought i would write it from scratcj
13:19 < ln43> it's not easy resolving "diamond" dependencies automatically
13:20 < pardis> presumably this is an exercise in learning about package managers
13:20 < pardis> in which case writing one from scratch makes the most sense
13:20 < librecat> i learned about process management yesterday
13:21 < librecat> fork waitpid execv
13:23 < librecat> pardis: yeah i wont make others use it until its ready
13:23 < pardis> "making" others use your open-source project sounds like a very healthy attitude
13:24 < librecat> Also i just set myself small doable goals and slightly larger milestones
13:24 < ln43> librecat: do you already know how ports are implemented?
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13:25 < librecat> pardis: i mean i wont make others use it without it being ready, i will be happier if someone else finds a use for it
13:25 < pardis> that is extremely unlikely to happen and if it does it will probably make things worse
13:26 < pardis> wasting time on solving solved problems is only valuable as a learning exercise
13:26 < librecat> pardis: well i think it will be better than pacman fork for hyperbola's version of openbsd
13:27 < librecat> instead of going in that rabbit hole im gonna say that i want to have a nice time, learn and improve first but also try to make it useful long term
13:28 < pardis> it's unlikely many people here will know or care anything about what hyperbola may be doing
13:28 < librecat> pardis: so you think making a new standard is gonna worsen only like xkcd comic?
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13:32 < librecat> pardis: ok i will make a simple thing to improve myself but not share it around alot or ask others to use it
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13:34 < librecat> I think i get you
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13:35 < librecat> andrew kelley claims he will fix c and all he does is create another language with its own tradeoffs and divides effort that could have gone into fixing established c codebases
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13:38 < ln43> librecat: do you ever tryied to compile a web-browser from sources?
13:38 < librecat> ln43: yes
13:38 < librecat> many many many commands
13:38 < librecat> also it takes forever
13:41 < ln43> and Xorg from sources?
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13:42 < librecat> ln43: yes actually, its unececarily painful from having too many modules
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13:44 < librecat> web browser takes long because it has lots of slow to compile c++ code, xorg takes long because its too fragmented and requires lots of manual intervention
13:44 < ln43> so, maybe it can make more sense do what you was telling before if already you know how ports are implemented
13:45 < ln43> and pkg_add
13:45 < librecat> Got it thanks
13:46 < librecat> ln43: i dont know how the manager works but i have read and even written gentoo ports before
13:46 < ln43> good
13:46 < librecat> Gentoo documents their ports syntax to the best of their ability to increase their chances of having more package maintainers
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13:47 < librecat> but it wont hurt to take a deep dive at gentoo ports :)
13:47 < librecat> and also taking a look at how a normal package manager like pkg_add works
13:48 < librecat> So that i have good sources of inspiration and dont repeat past mistakes wasting years of my time :)
13:49 < librecat> ln43: intrestingly i structured the ports layout really well but struggled with the manager so i should start studying pkg_add to make any progress
13:50 < librecat> also a mistake is apparent: nobody writes the part executing shell steps in c without a good reason
13:50 < librecat> because there is no benifit to writing them in c
13:51 < librecat> i should just follow a known good layout like openbsd ;)
13:51 < librecat> running build steps should be part of ports
13:51 < librecat> manager should only manage
13:52 < librecat> thanks alot everyone i will show you again when i have only port system in only lua
13:52 < librecat> maybe i make it use pkg_add for now
13:53 < tarel2> People write shell script in C at at ??  I thought shell script was made so you did not have to do that at all.  a bridge between command and programs .
13:55 < tarel2> I guess I mean people do that?
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13:55 < librecat> tarel2: i use execv but i think its still inefficient
13:56 < librecat> i read a lua variable from c,populate a command vector, give the vector to execv
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13:57 < tarel2> sound interesting
13:57 < librecat> tarel2: but managing processes in c isnt eazy
13:57 < tarel2>  myself I never got into writing scripts , I have wanted to for years but I can't think of a uses
13:58 < librecat> lemme make the ports runnable from lua
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14:01 < sibiria> are you actually working on rewriting the openbsd pkg in lua?
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14:01 < tarel2> librcat , do you think programing is part of leveling up in using the os , that seems like it is for open source os like Linux and BSD too.  Like networking is needed skill , sys admin is other and stuff like that only has to do with Linux , package mangers ,   stuff like that
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14:05 < librecat> sibiria: right now im finishing the ports system only inlua
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15:35 < librecat> ln43 what i do looks either like pkgsrc or portage
15:35 < librecat> but i think im probably doing it as a research and learning more than shipping a production tool
15:36 < librecat> what i learn trying to write this thing is making me value existing tools and find new ways to extend existing tools
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17:41 < Randomusrrnameso> Has anybody had issues with acpitz on intel processors? I dont have access to a computer or can share technical details rn, but just asking around.
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17:48 < IcePic> Qualb: happy to hear
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19:04 < housemate> how do I use acme-client?
19:05 < housemate> in my acme-client.conf I have put this...
19:05 < housemate> https://bpa.st/L5UA
19:05 < housemate> now what?
19:05 < housemate> I do NOT UNDERSTAND.
19:09 < fro> https://man.openbsd.org/acme-client
19:10 < housemate> ineedsomeacidtocalmmedown:~$ doas acme-client
19:10 < fro> https://man.openbsd.org/acme-client.conf.5
19:10 < housemate> /etc/acme-client.conf:18: domain already defined
19:10 < housemate> oh
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20:36 < echelon_> interesting, can it do dns validation?
20:40 < sibiria> nope
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20:41 < echelon_> would a feature change be accepted?
20:41 < sibiria> i think a lot of users would appreciate dns-01 in acme-client
20:42 < pardis> to do what, exactly?
20:42 < echelon_> instead of having to run a local web server for the acme challenge
20:43 < sibiria> have wildcard CSRs signed, and to allow signing CSRs somewhere else than the actual host you're using the certs on, without having to jump through annoying hoops
20:43 < pardis> it's far more likely that a local web server is already running than that a local nsd is authoritative for the relevant domain
20:43 < echelon_> the auth dns doesn't need to be local
20:44 < sibiria> ...and sometimes you just don't want to involve even stateless authentication on the same host. http-01 is a mess
20:44 < pardis> so we come back to "to do what, exactly?"
20:44 < pardis> detect which of several hundred possible services is providing DNS and work out how to update the config?
20:45 < sibiria> it's generally a poor idea to manage and authenticate your certificates on/from the same hosts you're using them on
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20:46 < sibiria> you know, separate your concerns. if operational security is your concern at all, that is. if not, knock yourself out with http-01!
20:47 < pardis> if operational security is your concern, you don't want to use let's encrypt at all
20:48 < sibiria> you don't have to
20:48 < sibiria> the ACME protocol is used by commercial CAs, too
20:48 < pardis> giving host A credentials to automate authentication of certs on host B is not meaningfully different from having the authentication on host A
20:48 < sibiria> it is in the sense that the host using the certs is typically a host the whole world has access to
20:49 < echelon_> i thought it required TXT
20:49 < pardis> anyway, very few OpenBSD developers are in this channel, so if you have a reasonable change suggestion (which you are for some reason not articulating here) then this would be the wrong place to find out if it would be accepted
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20:50 < pardis> but there are a number of ACME client implementations in packages which can do DNS validation already
20:51 < sibiria> i absolutely see value in base being able to do it. i use a third-party application solely because i don't "shit where i eat" when it comes to managing certificates
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20:53 < echelon_> you can make remote dns record updates very granular without exposing the entire zone
20:54 < echelon_> see dns.he.net
20:55 < echelon_> privileges for dns record updates* rather
20:55  * pardis still doesn't see how a host the whole world has access to having one sort of credentials is different from the same host having another sort of credentials
20:55 < sibiria> and that's ok
20:57 < pardis> besides, if the host is compromised the cert and key can just be read from disk, no need to request a new one
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21:07 < sibiria> yes, but an attacker can't print their own certs for any of your FQDNs if you've set your CAA up correctly and keep your machinery elsewhere
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21:11 < pardis> except by reading the credentials used to update the DNS records from your config and then using them
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21:13 < sibiria> i think there's a language barrier here
21:13 < sibiria> you're not meant to keep any credentials on any of the hosts making use of the certs
21:14 < sibiria> dns-01 allows you to completely manage your certificates somewhere else - because authentication is done over DNS instead of http towards the host using the certs
21:15 < pardis> but that's necessary with acme-client without a significant design change anyway
21:15 < pardis> and it still hasn't been stated exactly what the suggested change to it is
21:15 < sibiria> you print your CSRs elsewhere, you request signatures elsewhere, you authorize the request elsewhere, you receive signed certificate elsewhere
21:16 < sibiria> what echelon_ suggested/asked was if dns-01 challenge capabiliyy could be introduced for acme-client
21:16 < sibiria> capability*
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21:17 < pardis> I know, but that's not specific and it doesn't do anything to change the fact that acme-client generates a private key, produces a CSR and gets a cert in one fell swoop
21:17 < sibiria> which are also shortcomings of the software
21:17 < sibiria> acme.sh is a very popular alternative for many reasons
21:18 < pardis> my understanding is that acme-client was meant to be a very simple, stupid client that just works in the most common case, not a general-purpose utility
21:18 < sibiria> it's a rewrite of the first version of certbot, in a way
21:18 < pardis> if echelon_ just wants to use DNS validation, it would be far easier to pkg_add something else than to submit a patch to acme-client that changes everything about it
21:19 < pardis> though don't let me stop you if you want to do that
21:19 < sibiria> i'm personally happy with acme.sh. i think it's a great application
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22:49 -!- DetourNetworkUK [DetourNetw@user/DetourNetworkUK] has joined #openbsd
22:50 -!- vdamewood [~vdamewood@fedora/vdamewood] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
22:54 -!- Poltawer [~xt003@user/Poltawer] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 4.8.1]
23:00 -!- akinji [~akinji@user/akinji] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
23:03 -!- librecat [uid714233@id-714233.helmsley.irccloud.com] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
23:05 -!- lolok [~lolok@user/lolok] has joined #openbsd
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23:13 -!- skippy8 [~skippy8@user/Skippy8] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 4.8.1]
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23:24 -!- crb_ [~crb@216.15.2.13] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
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23:27 -!- bba [~bba@user/bba] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
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23:33 -!- crb [~crb@216.15.2.13] has joined #openbsd
23:33 -!- crb__ [~crb@216.15.2.13] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
23:36 -!- crb [~crb@216.15.2.13] has quit [Client Quit]
23:37 -!- crb [~crb@216.15.2.13] has joined #openbsd
23:37 -!- crb [~crb@216.15.2.13] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
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23:46 -!- OnASnoopPhone [~OnASnoopP@user/OnASnoopPhone] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
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23:54 -!- jastrom [~jastrom@user/jastrom] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
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--- Log closed Sun Dec 28 00:00:24 2025