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01:08 < mischief> yay, got my 7.8 shirt
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01:31 < byteskeptical> noice
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02:26 < xx> which doas implementation is the recommended one if I have to use it on linux? I see at least 3 forks of it
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05:16 < byteskeptical> xx: alpine's is probably a good place to start
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05:24 < xx> https://pkgs.alpinelinux.org/package/edge/main/x86_64/doas leads to https://github.com/Duncaen/OpenDoas which hasn't been updated in 4 years. Is that ok?
05:29 < rnkn> ooh I don't like the sounds of that
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05:30 < cgnarne> probably yes. you can compare the source to the one in OpenBSD cvs to check
05:30 < dg> it looks like alpine have been applying their own patches on top of it
05:31 < dg> e.g. there's one for rowhammer there
05:31 < cgnarne> in the end the risk assessment is on you
05:32 < dg> https://gitlab.alpinelinux.org/alpine/aports/-/blob/master/main/doas/rowhammer.patch note the comment there, which is already quite old
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12:52 < opv> Hey yall, I have an issue with one of my VMs. Essentially I can't restore its network connection, and so I have to get to the data by accessing its HDD directly. But the HDD file contains multiple partitions, so it's not something I can just mount as-is. I would appreciate some pointers in how to go by getting to the data. Thank you
12:55 < sibiria> boot and attach to its console, log in from there and see what happened to the networking?
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12:57 < opv> i'm trying to diagnose the networking but it's difficult. essentially i upgraded the Alpine in the VM, and since then the network is dead. dhcp requests never reach the dhcpd running on the host, and static network conf also doesn't restore connectivity. i literally just did an apk upgrade in the VM and that somehow borked it
12:57 < opv> other vms attached to the same network interface work fine, it's definitely a problem with the Alpine inside the VM, but I can't even rollback dhcpc since i have no way to get to the older package file
12:58 < opv> I need to get to the files on the virtual hdd, inside the vmd disk file
12:58 < sibiria> i suppose it runs ext4?
13:00 < opv> yeah, amongst other things. i can copy it to a linux box just fine, but the disk file contains 3 partitions and i have no clue on how to separate them in order to mount them
13:01 < sibiria> i'd be surprised if you couldn't just mount it as a loop device
13:02 < opv> the entire disk file?
13:02 < sibiria> yeah, it's the usual way of dealing with disk images in linux
13:02 < opv> but it contains multiple partitions, how does that work? 
13:03 < opv> if it was one partition in the file sure, no problem
13:04 < sibiria> good question, i've actually never dealt with loop devices and multiple file systems. if i were to guess, the device mapper of linux would just "kick in" as usual and parse the partition table
13:04 < sibiria> give it a try?
13:05 < opv> I'll see how far I get, thanks for the assist
13:05 < sibiria> loop0p0, p1, p2 etc.
13:05 < opv> it'll take a good 20mins to copy over the file, don't want to hold a lock on you :)
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13:06 < sibiria> "no worries, i've got plenty of work to ignore this monday"
13:06 < opv> same same
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13:11 < sibiria> but i think it might be easier to solve the internal networking first, by having a look at /etc/resolv.conf and /etc/network/*. maybe force static IP on the thing to make sure dhcp hiccups won't get in the way
13:11 < opv> already did, doesn't do anything. it's almost like the virtual cable is broken
13:11 < sibiria> ah. hm
13:12 < opv> yeah, it's weird af, and i can't do anything since the VM has no network and hence no internet
13:12 < sibiria> definitely a handicap
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14:24 < byteskeptical> opv: just use the serial console
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15:36 < vortexx> opv: at a guess, those 3 partitions are /boot / and the swap partition. /boot will be 512M-2G in size, / will be much larger depending on how much you added in disk space on the VM and swap probably 2x the size of the ram assigned
15:38 < pardis> make a new Linux VM with the old version and attach the disk to that?
15:38 < pardis> no need to screw around trying to mount foreign filesystems on the host
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16:32 < opv> thank you byteskeptical , vortexx , pardis for your useful suggestions
16:33 < opv> i was able to create a loop device with loadm and then mount the resulting /dev/loop3 regularly
16:34 < opv> i don't think recreating the VM with the same disk file will work, since I'm certain the error is with the VM itself, and I don't see how running an apk upgrade would affect the hypervisor
16:34 < byteskeptical> opv: W
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21:18 < ssm__> can anyone comment on the quality of the macppc port at the moment? maybe interested in acquiring a powerbook g4 for daily use
21:19 < ssm__> or maybe loooooongson >_>
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21:29 < vortexx> there was that person compiling for looooooongson
21:30 < vortexx> yang3 who is still in here
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21:39 < vortexx> macppc... Maybe solene still is
21:39 < vortexx> although she may have exited the OpenBSD space by now
21:41 < oldlaptop> what do you propose to use the thing for? entirely apart from the shape the port's in, you're talking about a >20-year-old laptop
21:41 < oldlaptop> you can pretty much forget browsers (except the dillo/netsurf/lynx sort of thing)
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21:43 < oldlaptop> the wider world (i.e. ports...) has also pretty much forgotten there's such a thing as big-endian
21:43 < humm> grr, dillo/netsurf/lynx should be among the first browsers people think of, not afterthoughts
21:44 < quinq> ssm__, I wasn't able to boot mine
21:44 < oldlaptop> humm: They're just fine for viewing hypertext documents.
21:44 < quinq> Oh nevermind, I misread, *powerbook*
21:44 < oldlaptop> I agree that should be a "browser's" job, but we're not in that world
21:45 < yang3> ssm__ vortexx I have Lemote Yeeloong loongson 2f
21:45 < ssm__> oldlaptop: <you can pretty much forget browsers> I'm already sold on it you don't need to sell it to me
21:46 < ssm__> I basically only use the browsers you listed lol
21:46 < oldlaptop> I guess it'll run a text editor just fine. Depending on what you're working with, it may well not run the corresponding compiler to your satisfaction.
21:47 < JetpackJackson> TIL netsurf is in the repos
21:47 < oldlaptop> a disturbing amount of the ports ecosystem is going to foul up on anything big-endian these days
21:48 < ssm__> yang3: what hardware do you recommend?
21:48 < oldlaptop> in short: assume you're getting a historical curiosity, not a daily driver, regardless of the shape openbsd/macppc itself is in
21:49 < oldlaptop> (There is nothing wrong with historical curiosities - far from it - but they have their limits.)
21:49 < ssm__> eh reading the specsheet I've driven worse
21:50 < ssm__> honestly teh yeeloong is in the perfect range of shittyness I want
21:50  * oldlaptop remembers very well when much worse was practical on The Modern Web (TM)
21:50 < oldlaptop> those days will not return
21:50 < ssm__> teh unleetspeak ( teh -- the )
21:50 < vortexx> loongson back in the SGI forum days were rather difficult to obtain as the production wasn't constant. Not sure how much that has improved or not
21:51 < ssm__> hmm does anyone know where I could obtain one if it's not in the usual (ebay) places?
21:51 < vortexx> hopefully yang3 will know that
21:51 < ssm__> yang3: I require the warez. or the hardez...? it this case
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21:52 < yang3> ssm__ I don't think you will be able to find a yeeloong, they are very rare these days, unless you're looking in China's second hand market
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21:53 < ssm__> bummer
21:53 < vortexx> https://de.aliexpress.com/item/1005004768661017.html?gatewayAdapt=glo2deu there's one here, but it's bloody expensive for the spec
21:54  * oldlaptop would suggest getting the not-amd64 fix from something not-a-laptop, in the current state of the world.
21:55 < ssm__> vortexx: ouch yeah that's out of my range. that's 200eur above the mnt reform and that was what was already too expensive
21:55 < oldlaptop> You can get standard ATX-family boards with decent RISC-V or arm64 CPUs on them for surprisingly reasonable prices (and raptor stuff for entirely unreasonable prices)
21:55 < vortexx> there's "reference boards" out there too
21:55 < vortexx> or just get a second hand macbook air m1
21:55 < vortexx> :P
21:56 < ssm__> FPGA make it anything
21:56 < vortexx> https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Loongson-3A5000-laptop-Loongson-laptop-FTD2000_1600489450639.html
21:56 < oldlaptop> for portable requirements... foo bridge thinkpads remain pretty practical, for the moment
21:56 < pardis> in fairness, the Yeeloong is not really usable as a laptop
21:56 < vortexx> aren't there arm64 chromebooks going for cheap?
21:56 < oldlaptop> vortexx: Are those infected with the Illuminati mind control beams? or whatever?
21:57 < vortexx> oldlaptop: no idea, I'm just posting stuff search engines find
21:57 < pardis> it happens to come in a laptop form factor, but as soon as you unplug it you notice the abysmal (even for its time) battery life
21:57 < oldlaptop> (the apple stuff - though much the same would go for cheap chromebooks)
21:57 < vortexx> heh, they might well do but an openbsd dev is expected to have the skill level to dodge such beams
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21:58 < pardis> ssm__: macppc worked well for me 10 years ago, can't imagine much has changed given that no new hardware has been produced in that time
21:58 < pardis> and macppc hardware is much faster than loongson hardware
21:58 < ssm__> and cheaper from what I've seen
21:58 < oldlaptop> pardis: The only problem there is the wider world progressively forgetting more and more that byte order ever was a thing.
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21:59 < ssm__> already checked my local ftp mirror to make sure what I need is ported (not a guarantee it works ofc, but it builds)
21:59 < pardis> I actually fixed a byte order bug (in i3) when I used OpenBSD/macppc around 2015-16
21:59 < oldlaptop> (I assume there are other porting details, but that's been the big one IME, trying to actually run openbsd or linux on macppc hardware over the last five years or so.)
22:00 < pardis> https://github.com/i3/i3/pull/1504
22:00 < pardis> incidentally, working with that code is one of the things that convinced me to stop using i3
22:00 < oldlaptop> even money at any given time whether firefox will even pretend to run usefully (of course it's only really even arguably useful on a G5 or something)
22:01 < oldlaptop> a disturbing amount of "GUI stuff" in general fouls up - think random things that do graphics work getting colors all wrong
22:01 < oldlaptop> (again IME - it's been a while since I seriously tried to use any of the culprits I'm thinking of)
22:02 < pardis> ssm__: for reference, in 2015, my 2005 iBook could build OpenBSD in about 8 hours, my loongson took close to 24 hours
22:02 < pardis> of course that build time has since exploded by another factor of 3 or 4, thanks to clang
22:02 < pardis> but the speed difference is quite immense
22:02 < pardis> despite loongson hardware actually being newer, even
22:03 < ssm__> pardis: by "build openbsd" do you mean the kernel, or all of base?
22:03 < pardis> all of base
22:03 < ssm__> ah okay
22:03 < ssm__> that's fine
22:03 < pardis> might have included xenocara, it's been too long for me to remember details
22:05  * oldlaptop would more or less assume it'd OOM building llvm/clang these days
22:05 < pardis> the main pain point with macppc is wifi
22:05 < oldlaptop> or else spend an extra eon or three hammering swap
22:05 < ssm__> CC = tcc
22:05 < pardis> airport documentation is shocking even by hardware vendor standards
22:06 < pardis> still less painful than trying to deal with loongson's shortcomings, though
22:06  * oldlaptop mutters something about crappy keyboards and no decent pointing device being pretty painful
22:06 < ssm__> pardis: <wifi> any machines have swappable m.2 cards?
22:06 < ssm__> or is that too old for that standard
22:07 < pardis> too old by almost a decade
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22:07 < pardis> as sad as it is to acknowledge, if you want a fast, portable, working computer in the current day, you want amd64
22:08 < pardis> you can get 2 out of 3 with another platform
22:09 < vortexx> alternative archs is a fetishism I've been living with since the 90s, and yet only amd64 really works if you want to run this OS
22:09 < oldlaptop> ssm__: even in amd64 (or i386 - you're talking about stuff that long ago) you're going to see miniPCI or *possibly* miniPCIe
22:09 < ssm__> <fast> no <portable> probably not except portability to esoteric operating systems like 9front & duskOS <working> one would hope
22:10 < oldlaptop> I assume apple junk has weird proprietary interfaces if it's swappable at all.
22:10 < pardis> by portable I meant in the sense of unplugging it from the charger and expecting it to continue working for more than an hour or so
22:10 < oldlaptop> pardis: you're lucky to get 2
22:11 < ssm__> battery fab is easy right? :) :) :)
22:11 < ssm__> mnt reform really is the hardware I want but 1400 eur grr
22:12 < ssm__> it's too fast but it's got replacable battery, good keyboard, trackball, works on all my nonsense OSs I like (9front even has custom image!)
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22:22 < sibiria> ssm__: the old PPC laptops and some of the macs have miniPCIe for wifi/bt, and almost always atheros chip inside the apple "airport/extreme" cards. though i wouldn't have any hope of athn(4) working with any of them
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22:23 < sibiria> linux does a good job with most of them
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22:24 < sibiria> same goes when taking one of those cards out and putting them in a regular PC. in the past i used one of them in a miniPCIe-to-PCIe adapter for a plain PC running linux
22:24 < sibiria> with openbsd it was, as expected from athn(4), a no-go
22:25 < sibiria> i have never tried putting a non-airport card in the miniPCIe slot of a PPC ibook/whatever. no idea how it will behave with whatever Open Firmware on the PPC models may expect or need
22:25 < vortexx> I helped out at a Free Software Saturday locally the other day, someone brought in a laptop with a BCM4312, had to compile a linux kernel module to get it to work but it *did* work after that
22:25 < vortexx> I'm not sure the people there are quite ready for OpenBSD, mainly because wifi
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22:31 < sibiria> miniPCI* not miniPCIe
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