--- Log opened Sun Mar 01 00:00:01 2026
00:03 < vortexx> did another Free Software Saturday, my APU2 recycled as a router connected to the local wifi worked well without connection issues using the athn0 device
00:04 < vortexx> not anything I'd thought of using it for but as the usualy wifi bridge guy wasn't there it was fine. Not fast, but fine
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00:05 < vortexx> need to put together a laptop that boot some linux, FreeBSD, NetBSD and OpenBSD to show them what's doable
00:05 < vortexx> although the wireless restraints on most hw mean linux is the goto
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00:28 < hmj6502> what's a free software saturday? demonstrating FOSS locally...?
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00:29 < vortexx> hmj6502: mostly moving people from win10 to various versions of linux, usually mint linux because the wm is very similar to windows
00:29 < hmj6502> oh hell yeahhh
00:29 < hmj6502> that's so cool
00:29 < vortexx> backups of profiles always take forever though
00:29 < hmj6502> ah fair
00:29 < hmj6502> boring but important work
00:30 < vortexx> yeah we're here to help our local community
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00:30 < vortexx> and we do after service too
00:30 < vortexx> (and yes we do take donations)
00:30 < hmj6502> ur so cool
00:31 < vortexx> the guys in the team don't really know outside of linux though, I need to show them some things
00:31 < vortexx> at least OpenBSD helped out today
00:31 < hmj6502> hehe ofc
00:31 < hmj6502> linux is a pain tbh, it's only good cause it's not windows xD
00:31 < hmj6502> it's mainly the insane fragmentation
00:32 < vortexx> well the main issue to push for most people is hw compat
00:32 < vortexx> I'm ready to try FreeBSD to show people
00:32 < hmj6502> yeahh, linux is a good compromise there
00:32 < hmj6502> i've never tried freebsd, need to do that at some point
00:32 < vortexx> the other thing is having automated GUI package + OS update tools
00:33 < vortexx> because most people are not ready to do pkg_add -u
00:33 < hmj6502> ah
00:33 < hmj6502> scaryyyy
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00:33 < hmj6502> cli is just a better interface for some tasks
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00:33 < hmj6502> it's sad that ppl forgoe it completely
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00:34 < vortexx> but it frightens most users because they think they're incompetent if presented with it
00:34 < hmj6502> like sure doing ur rich text editing in plain text is a bit convoluted but certainly sysadmin tasks are all better with cli
00:34 < uwharrie> once the mindset shifts from "I need the OS to support this random hardware" to "I need to pick hardware that cooperates with open source OSes" users tend to have a better experience
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00:34 < vortexx> uwharrie: indeed
00:34 < vortexx> but we're just dealing with people bringing in win10 machines that are no longer supported
00:35 < vortexx> or worse. We did get a P4 from ~2005 that wouldn't even start
00:35 < oldlaptop> I think they're supposed to go out and buy a new Copilot+ (TM) PC so openclaw can handle all their banking details, or something.
00:36  * oldlaptop wonders how far off its nominal value the average capacitor in that thing is
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00:36 < oldlaptop> assuming none of them are... ventilated
00:36 < uwharrie> always a fun challenge getting a modern open source OS running on old hardware although tough to help someone get comfortable to live on it for real tasks
00:36 < oldlaptop> (some of them are probably ventilated)
00:36 < vortexx> but the lady who brought it in wanted to try things after a lifetime of IBM minis experience, and apparentely the family member who chose the computer to hand over had forgotten there were bill notes hidden in the tower :P
00:37 < vortexx> oldlaptop: it wasn't 800W
00:37 < hmj6502> xD
00:37 < vortexx> it was some old HP desktop
00:38 < vortexx> I'd trust OpenBSD on that just about, although it had "only" 512Mb
00:38 < oldlaptop> yes, and I would expect some 21-year-old HP desktop to possibly not have all of its capacitors completely intact.
00:39 < vortexx> she told us she had many a computer at home, the problem was mainly she had to drive from another canton
00:39 < vortexx> so I asked her to come back next month with something less than ten years old after showing her how Mint looked on a computer I was working on
00:40 < vortexx> (sound issues, card had conflicting drivers and I didn't have time to solve)
00:40 < vortexx> oldlaptop: yeah it was the triple beep "motherboard issue" count of death
00:40 < oldlaptop> Could just be a power supply
00:41 < vortexx> we didn't have the gear to check all that
00:41 < oldlaptop> (of course a new power supply is worth some disturbingly large multiple of what the machine is)
00:41 < vortexx> had to go fetch screen+kbd+mouse for one thing
00:41 < vortexx> yep
00:42  * oldlaptop would want some SK8845s or something for that (https://sharktastica.co.uk/wiki/8835-8840-8845)
00:42 < uwharrie> there was some business to be had replacing that bad batch of caps in Dells if things hadn't been fried yet
00:42 < hmj6502> been trying to get openbsd to work on an 18 year old eeepc just for fun today...
00:42 < vortexx> but I was pleasantly surprised to find athn0 in join mode in hostname.athn0 worked throughout the day
00:42 < hmj6502> it kinda sucks hard xD
00:42 < oldlaptop> although even those are worth ridiculous money on the secondary market now, might as well just buy TEX stuff
00:42 < hmj6502> (the eeepc, not obsd)
00:43 < hmj6502> it can't even run doom without dropping frames ToT
00:43 < vortexx> hmj6502: tried https://dmesgd.nycbug.org/ to find a config that worked?
00:43 < vortexx> oldlaptop: TEX?
00:43 < hmj6502> i have not, idk about ethernet yet but i do know that the wifi card is just straight up not supported 
00:44 < hmj6502> but usb wifi adapter works fine for now
00:44 < oldlaptop> https://tex.com.tw/
00:44  * oldlaptop enthusiastically recommends
00:44 < vortexx> oh those guys
00:44 < hmj6502> oooo
00:44 < vortexx> had fun today with a keyboard with a reluctant Up key
00:44 < hmj6502> what the heck
00:44 < oldlaptop> About the same price as even used SK8855 (the T4x0-period USB thinkpad keyboards), insanely
00:44 < hmj6502> never seen that
00:44 < hmj6502> i need that tbh
00:45 < vortexx> that's so fun in file explorer or in termina
00:45 < vortexx> l
00:45 < oldlaptop> :|
00:45 < hmj6502> in the process of building a pc and im gonna miss havning my thinkpad keyboard
00:45 < mischief> i have had the tex shinobi for ~5 years now
00:45 < mischief> would recommend
00:45 < vortexx> (oldlaptop has tons of fun hw recommendations if you prompt him)
00:45 < hmj6502> i'll keep that in mind
00:46 < hmj6502> i honestly want to make my own keyboard tho tbh, and implement trackpoint myself for fun
00:46 < hmj6502> i've made a macropad before, making a keyboard shouldn't be a huge step up
00:46 < hmj6502> just need the time
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00:47 < oldlaptop> hmj6502: Mouse buttons are a little odd - linear low-travel Cherry switches. Work just fine, but not what you'd be used to. Key legends on the Shinobi wear down fairly quickly under heavy use. (I'm given to understand the Shura comes with mostly double-shot keycaps, in which the legend won't wear down until most of the key is worn away.) I eventually had the stem blow out on the spacebar (not outrageously hard to 3D-print something, if you have that 
00:47 < oldlaptop> equipment around).
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00:47 < vortexx> oldlaptop: have frame.work (or a third party) given you your wish yet for a trackpoint?
00:47 < oldlaptop> Otherwise enthusiastically recommended.
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00:47 < oldlaptop> vortexx: I'm not aware of any current-production not-lenovo laptops with trackpoints.
00:47 < vortexx> damn
00:48 < oldlaptop> Dell/HP all seem to have gotten rid of it, and lenovo is plainly considering the idea.
00:48 < hmj6502> cherry mx on a mouse click, doesn't sound bad tbh
00:48 < oldlaptop> hmj6502: Not MX.
00:48 < vortexx> surely the trademark has expired by now...
00:48 < oldlaptop> (I don't remember offhand what it is called, but it's shorter-travel than MX.)
00:48 < hmj6502> uhh i'm gonna be honest idek the difference between keycaps xD
00:48 < hmj6502> im not too fussy about my keyboards
00:49 < hmj6502> using a stock one on my t490... ik some ppl would seethe and only use the pre t420
00:49 < oldlaptop> (we damned well would)
00:49 < hmj6502> lol
00:49 < oldlaptop> It's not even the keys themselves so much as the layout.
00:49 < vortexx> keyboards have gotten an awful much more complicated compared to the last one I bought in 2007
00:49 < hmj6502> never tried so idk
00:49 < hmj6502> but i do get you on layout in general
00:49 < hmj6502> the eee pc has an awful fucking layout
00:49 < hmj6502> they could've done more even with the limited space
00:50 < hmj6502> or done less really is what i mean
00:50 < oldlaptop> the old layout was much better thought-out (T4x0 is already IMO suboptimal - the big insert/delete are not a good idea)
00:50 < hmj6502> they could've done BETTER
00:50 < vortexx> oldlaptop: 
00:50 < oldlaptop> vortexx: Mostly that's an encouraging sign, I guess. (Depending on what you mean?)
00:50 < oldlaptop> The market for half-decent keyboards has grown exponentially in the last 20 years or so.
00:51 < hmj6502> i do wonder why there aren't aftermarket keyboard replacements for old laptops. designing pcbs is accessible, i assume the keys take too much depth? what about designing low profile keys?
00:51 < oldlaptop> I can walk into a brick and mortar big box store and have a selection of multiple different keyboards with discrete key switches. (Mostly marketed at "gaming", but still.) Still hard to get over that.
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00:51 < vortexx> oldlaptop: I had to change the keyboard on my Dell XPS 9310, which meant I had to dismantle it entirely and couldn't just change the keybpard but the frontpanel (with touchpad) as well. And I could source after 4 years a Swiss keyboard so I'm using a German one and using muscle memory to type correctly :P
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00:52 < vortexx> s/could source/could'nt source
00:52 < oldlaptop> hmj6502: If you wanted to replace the original hardware basically like-for-like, it's not a normal PCB you can just buy a batch of from pcbway/jlcpcb/whoever does that
00:52 < hmj6502> no i don't mean like for like
00:53 < oldlaptop> if you are using a normal FR4 PCB with some kind of discrete switch on it, there's nowhere near enough room in basically any laptop
00:53 < hmj6502> i mean just using the same connector, and doing whatever the hell u want
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00:53 < hmj6502> hmm
00:53 < hmj6502> i need to learn more about keyboards...
00:53 < vortexx> hmj6502: there's usually supply stores for most if not any laptops ready to sell parts
00:53 < oldlaptop> vortexx: Annoying.
00:53 < vortexx> batteries in particular, but the rest as well
00:54 < hmj6502> never seen aftermarket keyboards
00:54 < hmj6502> but batteries a lot of clones ofc
00:54 < hmj6502> displays
00:54 < hmj6502> also id love to talk more but it's getting late here and im eeppyyyy
00:54 < vortexx> oldlaptop: extremely. And I failed to connect the power indicator cable, but that ok cos the OS just bothers me with audio sounds instead
00:55 < hmj6502> gn
00:55 < oldlaptop> Most mass-produced desktop keyboards and basically all laptop keyboards are membrane-switch things, which is a really specialized kind of "PCB". Cheap at scale, but not AIUI the kind of thing you can do small batches of.
00:55 < vortexx> but at least the laptop is lasting 5+ years
00:55 < oldlaptop> (Also at least one notable category of... better keyboards are membrane-based, the IBM/Lexmark/Unicomp buckling-spring stuff)
00:55 < vortexx> not sure the lefthand usb-c connector will continue to allow me to charge for much longer, on a 2 usb-c laptop :P
00:56 < oldlaptop> vortexx: Used to be (at least on thinkpads) the dedicated barrel socket was a separate, not-PCB-mounted part
00:56 < vortexx> oldlaptop: how much for a proper clicky these days?
00:57 < vortexx> oldlaptop: Dell XPS here, and even thinkpads iirc are moving to usb-c for charging
00:57 < oldlaptop> Unicomp want $189 direct for a New M, by the look of it (ex shipping, which will get exciting for something that heavy)
00:57 < vortexx> barrel Sony was crap
00:57 < vortexx> it'd last a couple of years and then you'd need to crimp the cable
00:57 < vortexx> (yes these were all under OpenBSD)
00:57 < oldlaptop> That's the 'new' set of injection molds and so on, I understand they're pretty darn good.
00:58 < vortexx> gn hmj6502 
00:58 < vortexx> usb-c has held quite a while
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00:58 < vortexx> and being able to charge off two ports is really nice
00:59 < oldlaptop> Interesting the Mini M is actually priced lower. If anything I would have thought demand would be higher, given how long the keyboard nerds agitated for a tenkeyless unicomp https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/MINI_M
00:59 < vortexx> (my 2018 XPS had... three ports, and could charge oflf all of them)
01:00 < oldlaptop> the old stuff is actually more expensive - reading between the lines I would imagine it's kept for the "special" customers
01:00 < oldlaptop> I wonder if they're the only vendor selling APL layouts in A.D. 2026. https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/00UA41P4A
01:00 < vortexx> yeah that MINI_M would work
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01:01 < vortexx> I'm still hunting for my 13W3 screen connectors since I've moved
01:01 < vortexx> can't use my SGI / Sun gear without
01:02 < vortexx> too many boxes in the cellar to check
01:03 < vortexx> so what does APL imply?
01:04 < oldlaptop> APL as in the programming language
01:04 < vortexx> they're probably the only vendor in US if they're in Kentucky
01:04 < vortexx> and you need a specific keyboard for that?
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01:05 < vortexx> (my knowledge isn't THAT deep, I know of too many connectors on UNIX / Amiga stuff) 
01:05 < vortexx> APL sounds like yet another IBM language
01:05 < oldlaptop> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/APL_(codepage)
01:06 < vortexx> ah codepage not language
01:07 < vortexx> had to be IBM stuff lol
01:08 < vortexx> but then we've been talking clicky IBM keyboards so...
01:09 < vortexx> had a retired lady come in (with the P4) and she'd worked on mainframes all her professional life, IBM S/370 if I understood what she said correctly
01:09 < vortexx> might be been some AS/400 mini otherwise
01:10 < vortexx> s/be been/have been
01:11 < vortexx> she'd been aware of unix but hadn't been able to try
01:11 < vortexx> thus coming to us was of interest just to see how it worked
01:11 < dooder> My first job we maintained a Smalltalk variant. Had a museum of old computers to do builds on, Iris machines some AS/400s etc... they were ancient and this was 20 years ago 
01:12 < vortexx> (which is a reminder that working in computing doesn't always make one aware of open source OSes and even less that they're triable at home even now)
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01:13 < vortexx> Iris nice
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01:14 < dooder> I only worked on them enough to get them online and available for builds. IIRC is was Unix'ish as stuff was back then. Same commands different args / capabilities. 
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01:16 < vortexx> Iris runs an SGI version of unix (not super different) . AS/400 is CISC iirc, as a specific IBM OS, OS/400? they looked in the 2000s at running linux on the hw but the CPU was ... too different iirc
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01:18 < vortexx> offtopic but preserving original OSes (or at least latest versions) on such hw is of prime importance
01:18 < vortexx> many archs had computers with just the original OS
01:19 < dooder> I was watching a video recently of that restore process they did for the V4 Unix tape they found at University of Utah, pretty interesting stuff. 
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01:24 < mischief> i tried to run BSD OS in qemu recently, it did not go well
01:27 < oldlaptop> <vortexx> ah codepage not language
01:27 < oldlaptop> a programming language with its own character set
01:31 < vortexx> oldlaptop: clearly
01:31 < vortexx> which really sets you into one career
01:31 < jgh> there seems to be a followon to APL, "ivy"
01:33 < uwharrie> also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J_(programming_language) and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K_(programming_language)
01:34 < vortexx> mischief: as in? you did set it to i386 right?
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01:34 < vortexx> not that I've tried that
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01:36 < vortexx> https://virtuallyfun.com/category/bsd/ I'd poke around here about that
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01:42 < mischief> vortexx: i did, i tried a number of things
01:43 < mischief> if you want to give it a go, BSD OS is on archive.org
01:43 < mischief> a few weeks ago i was hoping to play around with some old BSDs/unices but i moved on
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04:56 < averymt> mischief, which version did you try to run? 4.4BSD works well in OpenSIMH
04:59 < mischief> BSD OS 4.3 and 5.1
04:59 < mischief> i was interested in bsds that ran on 386 and had networking (e.g., kvm acceleratable)
05:00 < mischief> (or other i386 unices)
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05:41 < averymt> 5.1BSD doesn't exist, unless it's some modern bootleg. Do you mean BSD/OS? the / is important
05:41 < averymt> BSD/OS is different from the BSD OS
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05:43 < averymt> if that is what you mean, I would recommend trying VirtualBox or 86box instead. VirtualBox tends to have better luck with x86 Unixen than QEMU, and should still be hardware accelerated
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06:01 < noob_> My /proc/acpi/wakeup is empty
06:03 < noob_> My laptop wont wake up from sleep and/ or hibernation
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06:19 < cgnarne> there is no /proc under OpenBSD. are you sure you're in the right channel?
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06:26 < noob_> I'm on openBSD
06:26 < noob_> I can enter sleep mode and hibernation mode but I cannot exit from these states
06:27 < noob_> The screen stays in a black state
06:27 < mischief> averymt: any proof that BSD/OS runs on virtualbox? i'm not going to run it, but that's at least a datapoint.
06:29 < noob_> No virtualbox..
06:29 < cgnarne> noob_: where does /proc/acpi/wakeup come from then?
06:30 < mischief> noob_: i was not talking to you.
06:30 < noob_> Sorry Duckduckgo AI returned a Linux solution although I used the openbsd operator
06:31 < mischief> noob_: maybe update your bios
06:31 < noob_> mischief: thank you
06:32 < mischief> hm. anyone seen this before?
06:32 < mischief> Feb 28 21:30:41 fugu /bsd: pf: state key linking mismatch!
06:32 < mischief> dlg: ^^
06:33 < noob_> Mischief: sleep and or hibernation works in debian 12, 13
06:33 < noob_> mischief: so the hardware supports it
06:34 < averymt> mischief I have no idea, but SVR5/UnixWare 7 runs easily in VB while it hardly or doesn't run at all in QEMU
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06:34 < averymt> err, I have no idea *about whether BSD/OS runs in VB*
06:34 < cgnarne> noob_: openbsd may not support hibernation on your machine as well as Linux does. 
06:37 < cgnarne> bios update is your best bet.
06:38 < noob_> cgnarne: thankyou sirs
06:38 < cgnarne> another thing you can try is to set machdep.lidaction to -1 in /etc/sysctl.conf
06:38 < noob_> thank you again
06:39 < cgnarne> this selects s0 over s3
06:39 < noob_> exactly what does it do=
06:39 < mischief> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACPI#Global_states
06:40 < noob_> Thank you
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06:44 < mischief> another satisfied customer
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06:53 < mischief> is anyone here from the bay area? is there an active user group? buug website seems very out of date and i'm struggling to find info
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12:42 < hmj6502> oldlaptop: how do yk so much about keyboards
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13:07 < il> it's a hobby
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15:52 < cli> slightly off-topic, but I'm quite certain that some folks in here have an answer to this; If I wanted to be notified about some domain's expiry, what is the least shady service that is out there?
15:54 < sibiria> whois the domain and parse the output
15:55 < sibiria> just grep for expires|expiry|expiration|blah
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15:57 < cli> hmm
15:57 < cli> am I just learning that whois domain.tld does not necessarily output an expiry date?
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16:00 < sibiria> it depends on who you query for the domain
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16:00 < sibiria> i think some TLDs don't output the dates at all, making them accessible only via the registrar for the logged-in holder
16:00 < sibiria> rare case
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16:03 < thrig> or whatever protocol is replacing whois
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16:05 < lts> rdap
16:05 < thrig> rdapper dan
16:05 < cli> oh yes I see, it is registrar specific. anyway, I know where (and how) to look now. thanks!
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21:36 < hmjsp> can't for the life of me figure out why my smtpd is no longer working properly... all i did was change domain name. i generated certs with acme-client and all, changed dns settings in registrar, and replaced any instances of old domain name with new one, but i keep getting "Message rejected due to: SPF fail"
21:36 < hmjsp> here's my smtpd.conf: https://paste.c-net.org/VaccineField
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21:37 < hmjsp> what's odd is i only get that error when sending to https://www.mail-tester.com/, i can't reproduce when sending internally or to outlook, gmail, etc
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23:24 < ssm_> day 67 of looking for a multipart mime decoder
23:25 < ssm_> or more granularly, something to handle quoted printables at the very least
23:25 < ssm_> could probably just write something for that
23:29 < ssm_> I have experience writing multipart mime messages by hand now and understand a reasonable portion of the spec. enough that I wish that uuencode was more standardized
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23:31 < ssm_> oh p5-Email-MIME-Encodings and p5-Email-MIME-Attachment-Stripper do basically exactly what I want
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23:31 < ssm_> bye bye forever mblaze won't be missed
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23:44 < thrig> MIME has got second system syndrome all over it
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23:52 < oldlaptop> the true horror of backwards compatibility is there to be seen in... just about any email standard, really
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--- Log closed Mon Mar 02 00:00:03 2026