--- Log opened Sat Mar 14 00:00:19 2026
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00:26 < dg> beauby: ah, I missed that, does seem like the same thing
00:27 < dg> I thought I'd used the install78.img myself, but the install78.img file I have must have been a snapshot one
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01:18 < morpho> is a laptop with an external usbc drive going to work with obsd for NAS
01:18 < morpho> the read/write speeds are not great but i dont know if thats just because its formatted fat
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01:21 < mischief> usb has too many variables. you need to test each to find the bottleneck.
01:22 < mischief> could be the port, the cable, the controller, the disk..
01:24 < mischief> i've got one of these (also have sabrent nvme disks and usb cables) and i recall they performed acceptably, but its been a while since i've used it https://sabrent.com/products/ec-snve
01:24 < morpho> its a sandisk extreme
01:25 < morpho> like a sealed unit
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01:29 < morpho> its exfat at the moment i think
01:29 < morpho> gets like 1mbps speeds
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01:32 < morpho> mischief: all i can change is what fs it is i guess
01:34 < morpho> im kind of dubious about using FF2 on an external drive
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01:36 < pardis> but fuse is okay?
01:37 < morpho> well exfat is not going to change anytime soon
01:38 < pardis> didn't realise ffs had such big plans
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01:42 < morpho> it does the job
01:42 < morpho> just i know obsd doesnt care about backwards compatability
01:43 < pardis> well, fuse is unlikely to be helping your performance
01:43 < pardis> but then OpenBSD isn't a great choice for a NAS regardless of what kind of disks you give it
01:46 < morpho> its not a great choice but its just so stable and i never need to change any settings
01:47 < morpho> like i dunno if running ZFS off an external usb is a great idea either
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02:21 < oldlaptop> morpho: incompatible changes to filesystems are a bridge or three farther than changing the kernel ABI on a system for which there's mostly a single source of binaries anyway
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02:23 < morpho> oldlaptop: so i should try FF2 on the ssd and just check the write speeds? i heard somewhere usbc is not mature on obsd
02:24 < morpho> i would have justed tested but i only have a finite amount of storage to juggle everything between for now
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02:25 < oldlaptop> if there's a reason not to, "ffs might change tomorrow!1!!" is *not* it
02:26 < thrig> they did remove softdeps or something
02:27 < oldlaptop> (ffs has arguably beeen "unchanged" longer than almost any other production filesystem, and ffs2 is not that far ahead)
02:27 < ssm_> <relayd> I figured it out, you can have multiple tables pointing at the same address
02:27 < ssm_> now I can make a port selector with <localhost> and <poison> both pointing to 127.0.0.1
02:28 < oldlaptop> the fact that the one big "change" resulted in the creation of something called "ffs2" is a hint as to how filesystem changes work
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02:28 < morpho> oldlaptop: ty
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02:37 < pardis> something called ffs2 that is indistinguishable from ffs to the user unless you look very closely
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06:57 < newq> Hey I'm trying to install OpenBSD on an iMac G5 whose original hard drive I replaced with a Samsung 850 SSD. I get the install CD running from Open Firmware and it starts loading the installler, but it hangs when it tries to initialize (I think that's the right word, I'm from Linuxland so I don't know the BSD stuff) wd0. 
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06:58 < newq> Also, I tried it with a different SSD earlier (a Patriot P220) and it was the same issue. I'm wondering if it has something to do with modern SSDs interacting with this old Apple hardware. But also, I briefly had Adelie Linux on this machine with an SSD in it and it didn't have this issue. I'd prefer to have a BSD on it, though, hence my troubles.
06:59 < newq> I regret that I didn't attempt an OpenBSD install on the stock HD for a control trial, but I didn't think to try before I took it out. Alas.
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07:28 < mischief> newq: maybe best to write to the mailing list
07:29 < newq> You think so?
07:30 < newq> I take it the IRC isn't very active anymore.
07:31 < IcePic> or very few people run 32bit ppcs these days
07:31 < newq> Actually, the G5 is 64 bit
07:31 < newq> but point taken lol
07:31 < IcePic> I don't think openbsd for g5 macs moves to 64bit mode, even if the cpu is capable of it
07:32 < newq> You can boot it into 64-bit mode, but MacOS didn't support it. Adelie Linux has a 64-bit release which I installed on that machine in question.
07:32 < IcePic> https://www.openbsd.org/powerpc64.html <- says POWER9 only
07:32 < newq> There are also people who've managed to upgrade some G5s to more than 4 GB of RAM, but again, you need a 64-bit OS
07:33 < newq> but yes, I am running the 32-bit OpenBSD
07:33 < newq> truth of the matter is, Im sorta high right now
07:33 < newq> anyway, thanks. I'll figure out the mailing list tomorrow
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09:30 < rnkn> is there a Perl module that parses OpenBSD-style config files (httpd.conf, relayd.conf, etc.)?
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11:27 < vortexx> well that was a nice surprise. Patched up to the latest level and NOW dpb will read my package list file (see man pkgpath). However the vm running 7.9-beta's dpb won't :/
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12:51 < SiFuh> net.wifi.enable=0 Would be a nice feature ;-)
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12:54 < morpho> some thinkpads used to have a hardware switch to kill wireless
12:54 < morpho> so i imagine there is some mechanism to do that virtually
12:55 < sibiria> technically you can power the device off in software. openbsd just doesn't have a way of doing it
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12:55 < morpho> no rfkill util?
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13:02 < avemestr> Bluetooth was permanently killed long ago :)
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13:20 < SiFuh> avemestr: Yep and I am glad. Things like the BT-W3 and higher models contain their own bluetooth stack so it is in the receiver as opposed to having it in the OS. 
13:21 < SiFuh> sibiria: morpho: At the moment the only real way that I am aware of for disabling Wi-Fi is to delete the file or move it to this if you want to keep the Wi-Fi settings but not use it. /etc/hostname.iwx0.inactive
13:22 < SiFuh> But a sysctl feature would be a nice bonus since we have that for video and audio recording already
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13:40 < sibiria> the point with powering the device off (instead of just not configuring it) is that it really is off and not reachable
13:40 < sibiria> if it uses external firmware one can also just delete the firmware file (and re-delete it after each fw_update)
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13:50 < thrig> no wifi, I expect you to die. xkcd://123
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13:53 < il> seems like a fair assumption given the circumstances
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14:44 < SiFuh> Well there is no Wi-Fi in my home or my parents home. My mother gets very sick around Wi-Fi or mobile phones. And we like having a mother over having Wi-Fi :-P
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16:04 < morpho> ive just upgraded to a snapshot, are we still waiting for chromium to build?
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16:13 < vortexx> morpho: ungoogled-chromium-145.0.7632.159 is available on my local mirror
16:13 < morpho> yeah i tried but it crashes
16:15 < vortexx> it takes like 36 hours to build on my box
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16:19 < morpho> ahh, probably will be up in 12 hours
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17:23 < cgnarne> snapshots are for dogfooding, expect a bumpy ride 
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17:40 < ForeverNoob[m]> Does a Wireguard setup (Mullvad) using rdomains mean that if you want to switch to a different Mullvad endpoint, I'd have to adjust / create (from the top of my head): 1). Network interface 2). rtables 3). pf.conf 4). DNS config. Is that more or less correct?
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17:48 < vortexx> sounds like it
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17:54 < phy1729> You don't need to mess with DNS if the rdomain only has wg out iirc
17:56 < SiFuh> Anyone use a BT-W6 from not Creative?
17:56 < SiFuh> After June I am decimating the wife's laptop and installing a user friendly OpenBSD on it. 
17:57 < SiFuh> She will need a BT-W* for her speakers.
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17:58 < SiFuh> I've written all the kernel patches support her system but she uses Bluetooth to connect her boombox. 
18:00 < ForeverNoob[m]> Hmm well if that's the case, it sounds a bit more cumbersome than doing it all via wg-quick, though I suppose the rdomain method can be scripted as well.
18:01 < ForeverNoob[m]> SiFuh: I'm curious how this user friendly OpenBSD turns out. Is your wife comfortable in the terminal?
18:03 < ForeverNoob[m]> Also, is it recommended for me to create a lo device in rdomain 1 ?
18:03 < SiFuh> ForeverNoob[m]: No, she is a point and click. That is not the problem. I can adapt a system to that. 4 years ago I flashed the TV to run OpenBSD. She is quite happy with the TV actually impressed. Even the TV box is OpenBSD and she uses it.
18:04 < SiFuh> And in a couple of months, my Land Cruiser Head Unit will be OpenBSD.
18:04 < sibiria> ForeverNoob[m]: for some things you will need a loopback interface in your alternate rdomain
18:04 < SiFuh> Basically everything with a screen is OpenBSD here. Just her laptop is the problem Winturd 11 
18:05 < ForeverNoob[m]> SiFuh: So I guess the TV finally became smart :P
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18:05 < ForeverNoob[m]> I'd love to read more about it if you have it documented somewhere.
18:06 < SiFuh> ForeverNoob[m]: No it ain't a smart TV it was just a shit TV. I just changed the firmware. Nothing special.
18:07 < SiFuh> ForeverNoob[m]: I am no captain of a ship. So I don't log or record or journal anything. Sadly.
18:07 < ForeverNoob[m]> Nothing special, just casually installing OpenBSD on my TV :D
18:07 < SiFuh> ForeverNoob[m]: My distillers for moonshine and vodka run OpenBSD on the digital side too.
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18:09 < SiFuh> I explained to the wife "Windows tells you what to do. OpenBSD expects you to tell it what to do" It is quite simple to be honest.
18:09 < ForeverNoob[m]> Well that actually makes sense, distilling hard liquor requires utmost security and stable operation.
18:10 < fro> this all sounds very real
18:10 < fro> real things that happened in real life
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18:10 < ForeverNoob[m]> Well technically you can tell Copilot what to do, but there's a chance it won't (do it as expected) :p
18:11 < SiFuh> ForeverNoob[m]: So we have OCTV cameras here (CCTV. I call OCTV because they are not closed). She cannot access them with any software. Neither can OpenBSD. Well. I wrote the software in C99 and using ffmpeg. I even did a linux version. It is gone now because it was a live distro. But Winturd? Nah, too much work for something so simple. So I have OCTV access from my desktop. She does not.
18:13 < SiFuh> fro: I am a moonshiner. OpenBSD is my friend. It plays my music, helps me do mathematical equations and proofing my booze to 40% so yeah. Real life. And if I get caught. 2 years prison. 
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18:13 < SiFuh> fro: For the record. I am in Malaysia. I am not Malaysian. But married and live here
18:14 < ForeverNoob[m]> There was this hype a while ago for installing Linux everywhere and I thought it made sense since it has much more hardware support, but I guess if you know enough C then you can make your own hardware support on anything.
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18:14 < fro> i don't see what that has to do with anything
18:14 < fro> but sure
18:14 < fro> noted
18:14 < SiFuh> ForeverNoob[m]: For anything? No.. For what Linux does? Yes, you can.
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18:15 < SiFuh> fro: Sorry, thought you were being sarcastic. So I was just confirming who and what I am.
18:17 < fro> send me some moonshine
18:17 < SiFuh> Come here and drink with me.
18:17 < fro> wish i could
18:18 < fro> never been to malaysia
18:18 < SiFuh> Well, I will gladly pick you up from the airport. Take you to my home and give you a floor to sleep on. So, the invitation is open.
18:20 < SiFuh> I can even turn on Wi-Fi if you want because my mother is not here. :-P
18:20 < fro> picking someone up from the airport is serious
18:20 < fro> we're best friends now
18:20 < SiFuh> Hahaha
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18:20 < SiFuh> Dude, if you want to come, just call and let me know. You have a house to crash in. 
18:22 < ForeverNoob[m]> Wish I could go to Malaysia, but I hear they have pretty harsh punishment for people that enjoy some ganja from time to time :(
18:23 < SiFuh> ForeverNoob[m]: Nah death penalty was abolished a few years back. I do not partake in that shit. But... If you want. I got suppliers and you will be tken well care of.
18:24 < SiFuh> I've a close friend that takes it nightly. So you don't need to worry about that
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18:24 < ForeverNoob[m]> SiFuh: Do they punish people for bringing vaporizers? If not I can bring my Storz & Bickel Venty. Hell maybe you can even install OpenBSD on it :D
18:25 < SiFuh> ForeverNoob[m]: Nope. It is common in Malaysia. Banned in Thailand though
18:26 < SiFuh> ForeverNoob[m]: I really don't see the point of installing OpenBSD on a vape device. But hey... It may be fun
18:26 < ForeverNoob[m]> Oh, I had no idea about that. I guess Thailand is off the list.
18:26 < ForeverNoob[m]> The point is that I can brag about having a vape with OpenBSD on it.
18:27 < SiFuh> And fro and ForeverNoob[m] You are will go jungle in a 4x4 if the weather permits and the team is ready. So you can shove that drug shit up your rectum and just live. Rather than exist. :-P
18:28 < SiFuh> I am a jungle off-road guy. It is stressful and a lot of fun. And you need to camp in the jungle and cook food yourself. It is really relaxing with no internet and just the sound of nature. 
18:29 < ForeverNoob[m]> IMO jungle is nice, but jungle + ganja is way nicer :D
18:29 < SiFuh> And if you make it. You can share a Cuban with me. ;-)
18:29 < ForeverNoob[m]> Haha deal!
18:30 < SiFuh> Bring it. Ganja is fine. Smoke so much Santa comes thinking you are a chimney. Don't care. No one cares here
18:30 < slack0> lol
18:31 < ForeverNoob[m]> A more apt analogy would be vape so much that you become steamboat willie, but I get the sentiment.
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18:31 < ForeverNoob[m]> Does Malaysia have an OpenBSD community?
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18:36 < SiFuh> ForeverNoob[m]: I don't think so dude. I mean we have Linux and BSD but I really don't think anyone uses OpenBSD here
18:37 < SiFuh> The main PCBSD dude died a few years ago. 
18:37 < ForeverNoob[m]> RIP
18:38 < SiFuh> His name in Malay translates into English Virgin. He was kind of the laughing stock of the Linux community here. He was a nice guy but a liar. 
18:38 < ForeverNoob[m]> But hey maybe if you install OpenBSD on more devices a community will form. Like a "build it and they'll come" kind of thing.
18:39 < SiFuh> No.. Most people here want shit that works. So Linux, yeah that is a big thing here. OpenBSD no... just me I guess. And don't get me wrong. The jungle dudes here that run Unix type systems are really good. Many self taught. But nah. I don't think OpenBSD will ever be a thing here
18:42 < ForeverNoob[m]> "The jungle dudes here that run Unix type systems" is not a phrase I thought I'd ever hear but this is why I love IRC :D
18:42 < fedaykin> ForeverNoob[m]: lol
18:42 < SiFuh> Yeah and I am a jungle dude that runs OpenBSD. :-P 
18:43 < ForeverNoob[m]> I wonder if that segment includes people being sysadmin for amusement parks filled with dinosaurs.
18:43 < SiFuh> fedaykin: In Linguistic class they said everyday a new sentence is made that has never been used before. Guess you heard one.
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18:44 < SiFuh> ForeverNoob[m]: I see many systems moving back to Windows and the original Linux systems are kept intact 
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18:48 < SiFuh> So, all my climbing gear is in perfect condition. Guess it means tomorrow, I am 3 story climbing, installing and abseiling down an OCTV camera. Suppose have done it 2 months ago. But... Hmmm
18:49 < SiFuh> Better get in the mood I guess
18:49 < ForeverNoob[m]> Damn, OpenBSD admins are next level lol
18:49 -!- fflam [~mdt@2600:4040:10f9:6b00::1c19] has joined #openbsd
18:49 < SiFuh> I am not an OpenBSD admin brother. I just love OpenBSD.
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18:58 < ForeverNoob[m]> I mean... if you're installing it on a TV that kind of at the very least makes you qualified to be an admin and even a dev no?
18:58 < SiFuh> So fro and ForeverNoob[m], you guys want to come to Malaysia? I would be honored 
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18:59 < ForeverNoob[m]> I would love to. Is it warm there when it's winter in EU? In that case I can definitely see myself doing a winter vacation there.
18:59 < SiFuh> ForeverNoob[m]: I was an admin for KKU in Thailand many ages ago. But no. I am just a simple moonshiner 
19:00 < SiFuh> ForeverNoob[m]: Warm? It's Malaysia we have two seasons. Fucking hot and really fucking hot.
19:00 < ForeverNoob[m]> Excellent! :D
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19:01 < SiFuh> ForeverNoob[m]: Okay so the sun passes the equator yes? I creates climate from North and South and North again. One is winter and one is summer yes? No... This is Malaysia. You get two summers because we are near the equator which means the sun fries you like eggs twice a year as it moves North and South and North again.
19:04 < ForeverNoob[m]> Wait that sounds like it can have some nasty insects. From 0 to Australia, how bad is it there?
19:04 < SiFuh> So right now the sun is moving North. It is now getting close to peak temp. 6 months from now it will move South and we will get peak temp again...
19:04 < SiFuh> Insects?
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19:05 < ForeverNoob[m]> Yeah like venomous centipedes and killer wasps etc.
19:06 < SiFuh> ForeverNoob[m]: Dude I sleep outside like a cowboy in the jungle. Insects are everywhere. KKM (Like US CDC) says it is dangerous because of snakes. Fark.. I am Australian. Think I care about their snakes? Yeah insects are pain in the arse but you get use to them. Brush them off. Don't smack them. They bite if you smack them
19:06 < SiFuh> Centipedes? BAHAHA They are the least of your worries. And your worries are, hmm, how to say... useless?
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19:07 < SiFuh> Look don't fight nature. Just adapt to it. Accept it as it is. You can't change it. You are one person 
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19:08 < ForeverNoob[m]> Yeah but you're an Aussie, that explains a lot :P
19:08 < SiFuh> Funny story. KKM found a King Cobra under their tent. Told me "You see dangerous to sleep outside" I replied "No worries. It clearly loves tents. I don't have one" Then everyone laughed. 
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19:09 < ForeverNoob[m]> I shall arrive as a bubble boy.
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19:09 < SiFuh> ForeverNoob[m]: Don't fear nature. Adapt to it. Accept it for what it is. You can sleep with a snake. Just understand it. Why is it with you. What is it about to do.  
19:11 < SiFuh> ForeverNoob[m]: I spent half my life in the jungles of Asia and Australia. If you were to ask me the most terrifying thing, I'd say none. If you asked me the most annoying thing. I'd say ants. 
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19:13 < ForeverNoob[m]> Yeah ok but I don't have that experience so most likely I'm going to get shipped home in a cool box after getting bit by a snake or some spider in my shoe.
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19:15 < SiFuh> ForeverNoob[m]: You;ve a brain. Use it. It is not diffcult to understand what is happening. For example. Snake ends up in your bed. Why? It requires warmth. You are a heater.
19:15 < ForeverNoob[m]> But I don't want to be a heater for snakes! :O
19:15 < morpho> you need one of them flutes
19:16 < SiFuh> Snakes don't go out hunting humans. How the heck can they swallow you? 
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19:16 < ForeverNoob[m]> I'm a little guy, with only a little flute.
19:16 < SiFuh> morpho: Hehehe umm they are usually defanged. The flute isn't the reason. It is the dancing moves that attract it
19:17 < SiFuh> Look for everyone reading. Nature is simple. It kills when it is hungry. If you are too big to kill it wants no part of you unless you threaten it. 
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19:18 < morpho> tbf when i lived in a shed i had less problem with bugs and stuff than a city
19:18 < morpho> and mice >_<
19:18 < SiFuh> Correct
19:19 < SiFuh> morpho: Cities are disgusting cesspools of shit full of not normal animals and people.
19:20 < morpho> i like the foxes
19:20 < SiFuh> We don't have them here that I know of. But in Australia they are really smart. I admire that
19:22 < SiFuh> ForeverNoob[m]: Largest centipede I ever saw was over a metre long. 1 inch wide. And I was asleep and woke up to the sound of it walking. I've never seen one that big. Rather than being scared and trying to kill it. I watched it move and admired it.
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19:24 < SiFuh> That was in Thailand inside a house.
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19:26 < morpho> how do you deal with condensation in the jungle
19:26 < SiFuh> ForeverNoob[m]: You will be fine. Rather than fearing. Just admire it. 
19:27 < morpho> i imagine when it gets cold water condenses in electronics and shorts them
19:27 < SiFuh> morpho: Hehehe.... I don't know. We just dry everything every morning
19:27 < SiFuh> Electronics? What? 
19:27 < fanbass_> 1
19:27 < SiFuh> Apart from my wife. There are no electronics. 
19:28 < morpho> have you installed obsd on a snake or something
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19:28 < SiFuh> ....
19:28 < morpho> like radios, servers, laptops
19:29 < morpho> does moisture not get inside?
19:29 < sibiria> i know a guy who lives right in the corner of Coral Gables in Miami, about 6 km from the ocean, and he told me that year by year even there he can see signs of electronics corroding slowly from minute amounts of salty humidity
19:30 < SiFuh> morpho: Dude. You drive in. find a base. Make a tent, set up a fire and cook your dinner and enjoy being disconnected from the fake world. Swim if you want. No OpenBSD no Wi-Fi no 3,4,5G nothing. Just live.
19:30 < sibiria> north west corner of coral gables, 4 us miles from nearest beach
19:31 < sibiria> an actual jungle must be way worse
19:31 < morpho> a bivwack
19:31 < morpho> nah you gotta try stellarium
19:31 < SiFuh> A Bivvie?
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19:32 < morpho> a teepee
19:32 < SiFuh> I have. I don't use. I sleep on canvas. Wife sleeps in the rooftop tent over the truck
19:33 < morpho> should try lora or meshtastic
19:33 < SiFuh> I have a question for everyone here. How many have slept outside in the rain in the wilderness?
19:34 < morpho> theres a certain level of vagrant living that qualifies somebody for using bsd
19:34 < SiFuh> I use it in anti-civilization. Outside. I care zero
19:35 < ForeverNoob[m]> I once fell asleep on a toilet.
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19:35 < militantorc> SiFuh, only death is real
19:35 < ForeverNoob[m]> To my defense, it was a very comfy seat.
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19:36 < morpho> elvis
19:36 < SiFuh> ForeverNoob[m]: HAHAH my wife thought I was crazy for sleeping on the toilet floor. But when she realised it was way cooler than the house, she ended up joing me. 
19:36 < SiFuh> militantorc: And taxes 
19:36 < militantorc> SiFuh, hi
19:36 < SiFuh> Hey
19:37 < morpho> you only pay tax on new shit
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19:38 < SiFuh> morpho: I don't pay income tax. But for shit I buy. There is tax
19:38 < morpho> shhh
19:38  * morpho nods
19:40 < SiFuh> morpho: My brother was mad at me when I joined the Royal Australia Airforce. Says I am funding death. I said "You pay tax, so technically you fund it, I get paid" He was not happy
19:41 < morpho> the emus continue to hold the rural provinces
19:41 < SiFuh> For the record. I walked out before the week was done because they are a gang of morons. So I didn't really join the airforce.
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19:43 < SiFuh> morpho: Emus are really stupid birds. We were driving in a car to Perth. Desert on both sides. Just one strip of tarmac. Emus decided to race us. We were doing maybe 220 KPH. The Emus was keeping. Wow! Then it decided to cut in front of us. Boom! A big bag of Emu shit exploded over the car. Stunk for months after.
19:44 -!- outofcreativity [~outofcrea@46.23.81.28] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:44 < SiFuh> It is like in their DNA they have to proce they are the fastest. 
19:45 < SiFuh> Has to prove*
19:45 < morpho> meep meep
19:45 < SiFuh> They are not Road runners
19:46 < SiFuh> Sacriest animal to ever meet in the Aussie wilderness..... Casowaries. 
19:46 < vortexx> this would be a lovely conversation for #openbsd-social
19:46 < vortexx> so this tv, is it arm64 or amd64?
19:46 < SiFuh> vortexx: It would
19:46 < SiFuh> vortexx: i386 believe it or not
19:47 < vortexx> I'm not terribly surprised
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19:47 < morpho> huh
19:47 < vortexx> not many browsers left that work for that
19:47 < vortexx> at least if you're running more recent releases of the OS
19:47 < SiFuh> TV is over 20 years old. So... Yeah
19:47 < SiFuh> I think it is running OpenBSD 6.5 
19:48 < SiFuh> I'd need to connect the JTAG to read what version it is. 
19:49 < vortexx> no worries
19:49 < vortexx> 20 years old explains the x86
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19:49 < SiFuh> It requires unscrewing panels so I won't bother for curiosity. 
19:50 < vortexx> my 2012 TV's browser stopped getting updates just in time for 2017 when the collective web decided some level of certs where no longer accessible
19:50 < vortexx> all of a suddent nothing worked anymore on it :P
19:50 < vortexx> just plugged in a laptop instead
19:50 < SiFuh> Time is correct?
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19:51 < vortexx> at least i386 has decent boot options and no messing around with u-boot, uefi or whatever other things the ARM people decided to come up with this week
19:51 < vortexx> (RISC-V people are guilty of this too)
19:51 < vortexx> I may or may not bother to find out how to boot OpenBSD/arm64 in qemu tonight
19:51  * SiFuh <-- Huge fan of Alpha before compac decimated it
19:52 < vortexx> yeah that was a nice arch
19:52 < vortexx> I have SGI mips and i386 gear here (i386 boots ARC, not BIOS)
19:52 < SiFuh> RISC was good. Today. I think it is not.
19:52 < vortexx> (it's all first gen Xeon)
19:54 < vortexx> most cpus these days have risc like ideas in them
19:54 < vortexx> it's no longer as clear cut as it was
19:54 < SiFuh> Well! I think in a day or two when the hardware arrives. I am going to build a Head Unit for me Land Cruiser. However. I need to hijack the kitchen for a weel to make Moonshine and that overrules and overrides everything.
19:54 < vortexx> can't do without moonshine
19:54 < vortexx> is it flavoured or not?
19:55 < SiFuh> Moonshine pays for me to live
19:55 < vortexx> (I'm familiar with North Carolina ABC bought moonshine)
19:55 < vortexx> I can imagine
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19:55 < SiFuh> I live in a money free society (80%) of the time. Moonshine is money bro
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19:56 < morpho> can you make cashew wine
19:56 < SiFuh> I could try that. But never done it. I make everything except Champagne 
19:57 < morpho> big bucks
19:57 < SiFuh> Cashews are a legume. Oily and not much sugar. Hmmm 
19:57 < morpho> they are a fruit fam
19:57 < SiFuh> Yeah they are the dick that hands from a fruit. 
19:57 < SiFuh> hangs*
19:58 < SiFuh> I know what they are. But also toxic.
19:58 < morpho> you make the wine out of the fruit
19:58 < SiFuh> Oh so the Cahsew placenta to be crude
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19:58 < SiFuh> Yeah I could do that
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19:58 < morpho> you should be able to get fresh ones
19:59 < morpho> obviously in europe its harder :s
19:59 < SiFuh> If I do, you coming to Malaysia to try?
19:59 < SiFuh> You want to keep the Cashew flavour yes?
20:00 < ForeverNoob[m]> Q: On -stable, if you want to be up-to-date with security patches, you basically have `pkg_add -u` for binary packages and syspatch for base / kernel?
20:00 < SiFuh> That would require a pot distillation or a Gin basket.
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20:00 < morpho> how does openbsd help with distilling?
20:00 < SiFuh> It does the maths bro
20:00 < ForeverNoob[m]> morpho: It adheres to the original UNIX philosophy of treating every moonshine jar as a file.
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20:01 < SiFuh> Okay. Laymans terms. Gravity tells density and the temperature changes the reading. I've got OpenBSD C99 code doing that to tell you the real proof. 
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20:02 < SiFuh> Secondly, you want to proof the liquor you add distilled water. However, if you do your maths wrong you can end up with a higher or lower percentage. My maths is to the 3rd decimal place 
20:02 < SiFuh> Sure can run it on Linux. But I don't use Linux
20:03 -!- ivdsangen [~ivo@83-82-34-145.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: leaving]
20:03 < morpho> i may have to use loonix
20:03 < SiFuh> So again. 100ml of water plus 100ml of Ethanol does not equal 200ml of liquid. 
20:04 < SiFuh> Water are golf balls and ethanol is basket balls. This is not linear. It is parabolic. 
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20:04 < morpho> looking to set up a file server to dump data from phones onto
20:05 < morpho> but i dunno if obsd is going to have drivers with all the random mobile devices :/
20:05 < SiFuh> mtp simple fs
20:05 < SiFuh> Unless you use an iPhone. Then I don't have any idea
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20:06 < morpho> all kinds of stuff
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20:07 < morpho> phone are bad
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20:07 < SiFuh> Don't really use one myself.
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20:16 < vortexx> ForeverNoob[m]: correct for keeping updated on -stable
20:16 < vortexx> don't forget to restart services
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20:18 < ForeverNoob[m]> vortexx: Ah yeah I usually just reboot. Apparently there's also fw_update which is also useful to run from time to time.
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20:18 < vortexx> yeah fw_update can pretty safely be put in a cronjob
20:19 < vortexx> I'm not prone to rebooting (at least not on routers and servers)
20:19 < vortexx> just depends which patch came down the pipeline
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20:21 < vortexx> all this pledge stuff of late for ex doesn't concern much of my gear (I haven't gotten round to setting up a proper public facing mail server yet, it's on the to do list)
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20:21 < morpho> we were talking about that earlier
20:21 < vortexx> indeed
20:21 < morpho> i think high5 / openbsd amsterdam do email hosting
20:22 < morpho> i might just set one up inbox only to begin with
20:22 < vortexx> well openbsd amsterdam will let you do it, if that's what you're suggesting. Not sure about high5
20:22 < morpho> think its the same
20:23 < vortexx> ok
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20:23 < vortexx> it's good this is all happening before release rather than have a release and everyone's config breaking at once
20:24 < morpho> webmail.high5.nl
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20:25 < morpho> whats happening
20:25 -!- zcram [~zcram@user/zcram] has quit [Quit: Do the right thing.]
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20:25 < vortexx> all this pledge stuff coming down because ports all have to be adapted
20:26 < vortexx> or rather the other way round
20:26 < vortexx> ports need to be adapted because tmppath being removed as a pledge
20:27 < morpho> yes
20:27 < morpho> is this why i dont have chromium yet
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20:32 < vortexx> 37942/52927
20:32 -!- singlestep [~singleste@user/singlestep] has joined #openbsd
20:32 < vortexx> this is how far I am on building ungoogled-chromium as of now
20:32 < morpho> nice
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20:33 < vortexx> it's moving but this is a 2019 Xeon, and the vm is running in bhyve
20:33 < vortexx> so not full full power
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20:34 < vortexx> I=1163 B=17 Q=249 T=186 F=2 !=14
20:34 < vortexx> dpb still has some work after that
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20:55 < FenderQ> pledge "tmppath" goes away because it sucks
20:55 < FenderQ> anyone have details on "it sucks"?
20:56 < FenderQ> the security risk etc.
20:56 < FenderQ> or more specifics on "Prompted by a report from David Leadbeater"
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21:46 < vortexx> from the 7.8 errata 18: Make the pledge(2) mechanism which permits specific libc paths more
21:46 < vortexx> strict by removing the "tmppath" promise, avoid normalizing paths
21:46 < vortexx> which libc already creates strictly correct, and blocking '..'
21:46 < vortexx> traversals out of /usr/share/zoneinfo.
21:47 < vortexx> FenderQ: the devs are always looking at ways of tightening down things, for it to happen to pledge doens't surprise me. Has it broken some of your personal code?
21:49 < FenderQ> a lot has gone wrong with OpenBSD for me recently
21:49 -!- lusciouslover [~luscious@user/lusciouslover] has joined #openbsd
21:50 < vortexx> FenderQ: I'm listening, I know some releases have broken a ton of things
21:51 < vortexx> (ubuntu broke a bunch of things for me over releases too, via apparmor tightening)
21:56 < vortexx> (for me when they decided bgpd.conf needed a rewrite really ruined my day, there's nothing worse than having to learn a new config file from an old one)
21:56 < vortexx> (that was ~ 2020 or 2021)
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22:23 < abd3bd> Hi everyone
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22:24 < FenderQ> hi abd3bd 
22:24 < abd3bd> I think I've found a bug in mandoc(1) 1.14.6
22:25 < FenderQ> vortexx: I feel like I made the mistake of trying to help test, using snapshots, unprepared for how people reacted on there
22:25 < FenderQ> it feels to me like the pledge thing caused panic patching
22:26 < abd3bd> hi FenderQ
22:26 < FenderQ> I understand bugs happen, and it is expected in -current
22:26 < FenderQ> even in -release from time to time
22:26 < abd3bd> yeah
22:27 < abd3bd> I tried to send an email to mandoc.bsd.lv but it fails for some reason
22:27 < fro> probably because that's not an email address
22:27 -!- hakutaku [~textual@user/hakutaku] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
22:27 < morpho> im not having any problems on snapshots so far
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22:28 < abd3bd> bruh, ofc it's not an email address
22:28 < abd3bd> there are different mailing lists, I tried discuss@mandoc.bsd.lv
22:28 < abd3bd> but to no aval
22:28 < FenderQ> morpho: you are living in a perfect world
22:28 < morpho> sometimes a package is missing from repos
22:29 < fro> i'm a regular snapshot user
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22:30 < fro> i haven't had many issues over the decade+ i've been using snapshots
22:31 < abd3bd> If anyone is interested to send the bug report themselves to the mandoc maintainers, I would be thankful.
22:31 < abd3bd> The following table makes mandoc hang forever:
22:31 < abd3bd> .TS
22:31 < abd3bd> box tab(|);
22:31 < abd3bd> c|lr|lr
22:31 < abd3bd> c|cs|cs.
22:31 < abd3bd> X|X|X|XX|X
22:31 < abd3bd> X|XXXXXXXX|X
22:31 < abd3bd> .TE
22:31 < FenderQ> abd3bd: maybe fro can submit it for you
22:31 < fro> hard no
22:31 < abd3bd> :(
22:31 < fro> do it yourself
22:31 < abd3bd> I tried
22:31 < FenderQ> helpful :D
22:32 < FenderQ> vortexx: that reveals the problem
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22:32 < fro> i'm not here to help
22:32 < fro> why don't _you_ help
22:32 < abd3bd> I told you, I tried but my emails are not getting to the mailing list
22:32 < abd3bd> I think I'm shadow banned because of me accidentally sending the email twice
22:33 < fro> well wait around in here until someone can help you or try something else
22:33 < byteskeptical> abd3bd: if it's your first time there is usually someone that has to approve it or a delay
22:33 < abd3bd> huh
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22:33 < abd3bd> sure, I can('t) wait for the approval
22:34 < abd3bd> I'm gonna just stick with groff for now
22:34 < abd3bd> who thoughts writing a manpage would be that complicated
22:34 < byteskeptical> abd3bd: how are you running the above table?
22:34 < abd3bd> save it in a file
22:35 < abd3bd> run mandoc ./myfile
22:36 < byteskeptical> works for me
22:37 < abd3bd> weird, for me it hangs
22:37 < abd3bd> what version are you running?
22:37 -!- rain0r [~rainer@p200300e2ef226e00c8d7a1fffe483d6c.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
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22:37 < byteskeptical> snapshot latest
22:38 < abd3bd> mandoc version
22:38 < fro> so maybe there's no bug after all?!
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22:39 < abd3bd> it's a bug on my machine, that's still a bug
22:40 < morpho> what version and hardware?
22:41 < fro> well in that case i'd like to report a bug to you
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22:42 < abd3bd> mandoc 1.14.6 on artix linux tested both from main package and source, running on a thinkpad T400 core2duo
22:43 < morpho> is that 32bit?
22:43 < abd3bd> it's 64 bit
22:43 < abd3bd> (I'm not that old to use a 32bit machine)
22:44 < byteskeptical> abd3bd: not sure how to print that tbh looking in the man page but not finding it
22:44 < fro> well 1.14.6 is from 2021 looks like?
22:44 < fro> so if you're using -current there may be changes that aren't included in that version they're using
22:45 < fro> can't really do apples to apples there
22:45 < byteskeptical> didn't realize he was on a different os
22:46 < fro> abd3bd: just to be clear, you tried kristaps@bsd.lv?
22:46 < byteskeptical> header in the Makefile: $OpenBSD: Makefile,v 1.120 2022/07/04 15:45:27 schwarze Exp $
22:47 < fro> yeah but i don't know if schwarze maintains the portable version
22:47 < fro> still coudln't hurt to ask them
22:47 < fro> couldn't*
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22:49 < abd3bd> fro: I only tried discuss@mandoc.bsd.lv as specified in https://mandoc.bsd.lv/contact.html
22:50 < fro> okay
22:50 -!- sunwind` [~paradox@188.210.213.25] has quit [Quit: Outside Context Problem.]
22:51 < byteskeptical> have you tried #artix or #artix-dev?
22:51 < abd3bd> my mandoc Makefile header: # $Id: Makefile,v 1.540 2021/09/21 11:04:40 schwarze Exp $
22:51 < fro> i would say you should start in #artix honestly
22:51 < abd3bd> byteskeptical: uhh, no. I don't think this is an artix problem because I compiled it from source
22:51 < fro> because it may not be a mandoc thing
22:51 < fro> well
22:51 -!- SiFuh [~SiFuh@user/sifuh] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:51 < fro> even if it's not which i don't know how you'd know that already
22:52 < fro> i'd still start with artix people
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22:52 < byteskeptical> adip: have you tried the package for your os?
22:52 < abd3bd> yes
22:52 < abd3bd> both have it
22:52 < fro> have you reached out to the package maintainer?
22:52 < fro> perhaps they may have some insight as well
22:53 < fro> you see where we're going with this i assume
22:54 < byteskeptical> abd3bd: if your compiling from source why stick with older version?
22:55 < fro> i think that's the current version for linux
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22:56 < fro> https://mandoc.bsd.lv/snapshots/
22:56 < fro> tht's what you'll get there and in packages for artix
22:57 -!- adip [~adip@c145-19.icpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
22:57 < abd3bd> byteskeptical: I used https://mandoc.bsd.lv/snapshots/mandoc.tar.gz
22:57 < abd3bd> because it says on https://mandoc.bsd.lv/ that that is the latest snapshot
22:58 < abd3bd> fro: yes, that's the same package version as my distro's package
22:59 < vortexx> that directory hasn't had an update since 2017
22:59 < abd3bd> bruh
22:59 < vortexx> screw that
22:59 < vortexx> 2021
22:59 < vortexx> still
22:59 -!- stuart [~stuart@2001:4091:a247:8079:657b:9dad:a158:af3a] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
22:59 < vortexx> 5 years
22:59 < abd3bd> lemme try cloning the cvs repo
22:59 < abd3bd> uhh, how to?
23:00 < vortexx> https://www.openbsd.org/anoncvs.html
23:00 < vortexx> also
23:00 < vortexx> did you try your problem on OpenBSD before showing up and complaining here?
23:01 < byteskeptical> I did
23:01 -!- zimmer__ [~zimmer@user/zimmer] has joined #openbsd
23:01 < vortexx> yes this is the originating project, but packages for other OSes aren't the remit of this channel
23:01 < vortexx> byteskeptical: good :)
23:01 < vortexx> back on track then
23:01 < abd3bd> I tried the latest snapshot but didn't on a openbsd vm
23:01 < byteskeptical> didn't realize he was on a different os
23:02 < vortexx> wasn't announced at the beginning of the convo from what I scrolled through
23:02 < abd3bd> yeah, should've said that from the beginning
23:02 < vortexx> abd3bd: usually once a bit of code is considered fully functional in OpenBSD the side website that it was developped on tends to get neglected
23:03 < vortexx> see openssh.com, openbgd.com, etc
23:03 < vortexx> or rather openssh.org and openbgpd.org
23:05 -!- robertf [~frederic@segolene.fredericrobert.be] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
23:05 < vortexx> s/developped/developed
23:06 -!- stackdroid18 [~stackdroi@user/stackdroid] has quit [Quit: I'm off, Goodbye!]
23:06 -!- echelon [~steerpike@gateway/tor-sasl/steerpike] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
23:07 -!- gnucode [~user@72.12.220.130] has joined #openbsd
23:07 < abd3bd> God
23:07 -!- gnucode [~user@72.12.220.130] has quit [Changing host]
23:07 -!- gnucode [~user@user/jab] has joined #openbsd
23:07 < morpho> can openbsd do host ap? to atleast 1 client?
23:07 < morpho> on intel
23:08 < morpho> got*
23:08 -!- gh [~gh@user/gh] has joined #openbsd
23:08 < oldlaptop> morpho: Many wi-fi interfaces do not support AP mode. The driver's manual page will say so if it does.
23:08 < abd3bd> I tried the latest mandoc source code, it didn't hang, but it's still broken
23:08 -!- echelon [~steerpike@gateway/tor-sasl/steerpike] has joined #openbsd
23:09 < abd3bd> the table didn't display correctly
23:09 < abd3bd> that's still a bug
23:09 < vortexx> morpho: those that do do so at usually unacceptable for normal use speeds. The ongoing recommendation is to use a separate AP
23:09 < vortexx> also you may encounter regular signal drop
23:09 < morpho> is loonix any better?
23:09 < vortexx> necessitating reboots
23:09 < oldlaptop> My iwn(4) thinkpads, for example, do not support AP mode. https://man.openbsd.org/iwn
23:09 < vortexx> morpho: much better, in the AP case
23:10 < vortexx> it's not for nothing openwrt keeps on going
23:10 < oldlaptop> Unfortunately pretty much everything other than the actual wi-fi driver itself is a much bigger pain on linux
23:10 < vortexx> indeed
23:10 < oldlaptop> ISTR what's in my apu4 is a ral(4). https://man.openbsd.org/ral
23:10 < vortexx> especially when dealing with the constraints of openwrt and the type of storage of a wifi router
23:11 < oldlaptop> It works. I wouldn't recommend it.
23:11 < vortexx> mine's an athn, known not to work in AP mode very well at all
23:11 < oldlaptop> what pcengines used to sell (athn, I think?) didn't work that well for me
23:11 < vortexx> works fine for egress though, but speed isn't amazing
23:11 < vortexx> yes that's the athn I have oldlaptop 
23:12 < morpho> its just a machine that i sometimes turn on
23:12 < morpho> and want to ftp some files too
23:12 < vortexx> is it that far from a long ethernet cable?
23:12 < vortexx> or is this a laptop without ethernet?
23:12 < oldlaptop> It's probably much easier to either plug it in or configure it to connect to some existing AP.
23:12 < vortexx> (we've been over this use case so many times in here :) )
23:13 -!- jetpackjackson_ [~JetpackJa@user/JetpackJackson] has joined #openbsd
23:13 < morpho> the ethernet drops packets
23:13 < morpho> physically damaged
23:13 < vortexx> sounds like it
23:13 -!- UID0_to_JSON [~UID0_to_J@user/UID0-to-JSON:37295] has joined #openbsd
23:13 < vortexx> well wifi drops packets too
23:14 < oldlaptop> (Are you sure it's the actual ethernet interface? If you're using the same cable each time, that would strike me as the obvious occam's-razor suspect.)
23:14 -!- spikewall [~spikewall@dynamic-095-117-172-228.95.117.pool.telefonica.de] has quit [Quit: spikewall]
23:14 < oldlaptop> Last time I suspected an ethernet interface of doing broken things, it turned out to be the cheap unmanaged switch it was plugged into.
23:14 < UID0_to_JSON> you're seeing drops on both ethernet and wifi?
23:15 < UID0_to_JSON> look at error counters
23:15 < oldlaptop> UID0_to_JSON: One would always see the occasional dropped packet on wi-fi, because that is the way that it is.
23:15 -!- spikewall [~spikewall@dynamic-095-117-172-228.95.117.pool.telefonica.de] has joined #openbsd
23:15 < abd3bd> so... fix the broken table code and make a new release should fix the issue.
23:16 < abd3bd> mandoc should really make a new release tbh, last release was 5 years ago
23:16 < UID0_to_JSON> if both ethernet and wifi are dropping the issue is likely higher up the stack or further down the wire
23:16 < morpho> tbf it was at some hackerspace with cisco 3750 switches
23:16 < morpho> probably full of gunk
23:17 < oldlaptop> UID0_to_JSON: (You are also missing the context that vortexx is not the one with the "problem".)
23:17 < vortexx> morpho: cisco usually just keeps on trucking, but you never know
23:18 < UID0_to_JSON> copy that
23:18 < morpho> hrmm, il try it again
23:18 < vortexx> and I once had a switch seem to have problems... till I rebooted what was at the other end of the cable, the netgear AP
23:19 < vortexx> that solved that
23:19 < vortexx> changing cables is the cheapest way of testing, if you have said cables
23:19 < UID0_to_JSON> check if the interface resets
23:20 < vortexx> most people do, they tend to build up (especially if you move often and the ISP thinks every new device sent out needs new cables)
23:20 < UID0_to_JSON> if the  netgear AP or cisco port flapping it should show
23:20 < UID0_to_JSON> and if the other end is rebooting or failing the ARP table might be inconsistent
23:20 < vortexx> UID0_to_JSON: to give you the context, morpho wants to try OpenBSD as an AP, which is very rarely a good idea
23:20 < vortexx> UID0_to_JSON: it'd show if you have console / logging access
23:21 < UID0_to_JSON> yeah, not every card can do it
23:21 < vortexx> consumer doesn't do that most of the time
23:21 < vortexx> s/consumer/consumer gear
23:21 < UID0_to_JSON> you usually bridge the wireless interface with an ethernet one
23:21 < UID0_to_JSON> vether or bridge
23:21 < vortexx> and it was consumer gear in my case
23:22 < UID0_to_JSON> also the AP starts dropping packets, the kernel usually logs it
23:22 < UID0_to_JSON> if the AP*
23:22 < vortexx> UID0_to_JSON: you're no allowing for how bad our AP drivers are in OpenBSD
23:22 < morpho> its basically just for a nas
23:22 < vortexx> are you familiar at all on that?
23:22 < vortexx> morpho: yeah I thought it was seeing previous convos this week
23:22 < morpho> wireless is evil thats why
23:22 < vortexx> s/no allowing/not allowing
23:22 < vortexx> damn my typing tonight
23:23 < UID0_to_JSON> if its just for a NAS he's likely looking for convenience over raw speed
23:23 -!- jetpackjackson_ [~JetpackJa@user/JetpackJackson] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
23:23 < UID0_to_JSON> but even for a NAS the drivers face uphill battles 
23:23 < morpho> yeah, hoping ffs2 over usb is ok speed
23:23 < UID0_to_JSON> the 802.11in celing 
23:23 < UID0_to_JSON> you wont be sseeing the 80211ac or AX speeds you'd expect in 2026
23:24 -!- Unix-BSD [~NOX@79.116.21.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
23:24 < UID0_to_JSON> also the network stack, often hits a thoroughput ceiling 
23:24 < vortexx> ffs2 will be better than fat, I know that
23:24 < UID0_to_JSON> cause much of the processing is still tied to a single core's interrupt handling
23:24 < vortexx> or rather, vfat
23:24 < morpho> i get 180mpbs on obsd
23:24 < morpho> for wireless
23:24 < vortexx> that's in client mode though
23:24 < UID0_to_JSON> 180mbs is surprisingly high!
23:24 < vortexx> and it's pretty good
23:25 < morpho> thats through a vpn too
23:25 < vortexx> in AP mode you'll be lucky to hit 10Mbps
23:25 -!- stackdroid18 [~stackdroi@user/stackdroid] has joined #openbsd
23:25 < UID0_to_JSON> you must have picked a clean channel
23:25 < vortexx> depending on local wifi networks etc
23:25 < UID0_to_JSON> 180 mbps is solid flex for hostAP on openbsd
23:25 < morpho> no, not host ap, sorry
23:26 < UID0_to_JSON> oh the ploot thickens
23:26 < UID0_to_JSON> yu use penbsd boxo as a wireless client that happens t obe hsoting NAS?
23:26 < UID0_to_JSON> or is it jooined to an existing network?
23:26 < UID0_to_JSON> that explains the 180 mbps
23:26 -!- jetpackjackson_ [~JetpackJa@user/JetpackJackson] has joined #openbsd
23:27 < UID0_to_JSON> iwx and the like are a lot more modern and optimized 
23:27 < morpho> sorry, i have a obsd vpn and laptop
23:27 < UID0_to_JSON> more than HostAP code
23:27 < morpho> i get 180mpbs speed to internet through that tunnel
23:27 < UID0_to_JSON> so 180 mbps oiver a vpn tunnelon a wifi
23:27 < morpho> yes
23:27 < UID0_to_JSON> that's actually pushing a fair amount f encapsulation overhead
23:27 < UID0_to_JSON> if its wg(4) your'e probably fine
23:28 < UID0_to_JSON> but if its IPsec, keep an eye on interrupt loads
23:28 < morpho> wg
23:28 < UID0_to_JSON> just a heads up it defaults to 1420 bytes
23:29 < morpho> wdym sorry?
23:29 < UID0_to_JSON> over wifi, if you hit anyu interfecne, those lsightly smaller packets actually help avoid fragmentation
23:29 < UID0_to_JSON> interference*
23:29 < UID0_to_JSON> think of the MTU as the size of the box you send over the network
23:30 < UID0_to_JSON> standard ethernet uses a box size of 1500 bytes
23:30 < morpho> no idea on this nas box, its not built yet
23:30 < UID0_to_JSON> because wg needs to add its own wrapper (headers) to encrypt the data, it shrinks the space inside the box to 1420 bytes 
23:30 < UID0_to_JSON> to make sure that toal size fits the 1500 limit
23:30 < UID0_to_JSON> if the box is too big, the nework has to split it into two channels
23:31 < UID0_to_JSON> so on wifi it means double the airtime, you're sending two frame and higher loss risk and a cpu tax
23:31 < vortexx> this is wonderful, but that doesn't take into account how well the AP mode drivers work
23:31 < vortexx> which is entirerly user experience but in here I don't think anyone has ever gone over 54Mbps yet 
23:31 < vortexx> and it is 2026
23:32 < vortexx> not 2007
23:32 < UID0_to_JSON> sure, it's lightyears ahead because it doesnt have to deal with the timing hell of managing multiple stations or beacon frames
23:32 < morpho> im not doing any host ap yet
23:32 < morpho> i just use the isp router
23:32 < vortexx> so for the average user, trying to not overthink or have to learn the finer points of IEEE802.11, we recommend a separate AP
23:32 < UID0_to_JSON> 54mbps is the 802.11g ceiling
23:33 < vortexx> UID0_to_JSON: no kidding
23:33 < UID0_to_JSON> and for a lot of HostAP capable drives in the tree, that's still the "Safety zone"
23:34 < UID0_to_JSON> just dont tell the iwx driver you're having a good time morpho 
23:34 < UID0_to_JSON> it might realize it's supposed to be slower
23:34 < vortexx> also I don't have a log entry for your handle till tonight
23:34 -!- lolok [~lolok@user/lolok] has quit [Quit: lolok]
23:34 < vortexx> and yet you show up and are lecturing us on 802.11 and OpenBSD
23:34 < UID0_to_JSON> fait
23:34 < UID0_to_JSON> every log has to start somewhere
23:34 < morpho> how long you lurking
23:34 < UID0_to_JSON> better to show up with a wg config issue
23:35 < vortexx> which is a niche subject
23:35 < UID0_to_JSON> i've been around, just usally keep my head down in the manpages
23:35 < vortexx> clearly
23:35 < UID0_to_JSON> unless someone mentions hoistAP obviously :(
23:35 < vortexx> don't we all
23:35 < morpho> think its an agent?
23:35 < vortexx> possibly
23:36 < UID0_to_JSON> grep -i "agent" /etc/passwd returned nothing
23:36 -!- fflam [~mdt@2600:4040:10f9:6b00::1c19] has joined #openbsd
23:36 < morpho> so UID0_to_JSON theres a turtle on its back?
23:37 < vortexx> UID0_to_JSON: so you have you actually tried an iwx card in AP mode on OpenBSD -stable or -current and have speeds to report?
23:37 < UID0_to_JSON> im a replicant
23:37 -!- UserNotFound [~User@38.244.136.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
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23:38 -!- UserNotFound [~User@38.244.136.108] has joined #openbsd
23:38 < UID0_to_JSON> vortexx, id love to, but id have to write the code for it first
23:38 < vortexx> indeed
23:38 < vortexx> most drivers don't have AP mode
23:38 < vortexx> especially newer ones
23:39 < UID0_to_JSON> yeah that was the point, its a graveyard for modern cards
23:42 -!- slack0 [~slack0@user/slack0] has quit [Quit: quit]
23:43 < vortexx> grep AP /usr/share/man/man4/* | grep Host | grep -v mode | grep -v conn | wc
23:43 < vortexx> 11      33     424
23:43 < morpho> they are speaking their own language fam
23:43 < vortexx> 11 drivers support Host AP, and none of them look very current
23:44 < vortexx> mh that brought in ifmedia, so 10 in fact
23:45 < UID0_to_JSON> that's depressing 
23:45 < UID0_to_JSON> i bet half of them are for hardware you can only find at the bottom of a bin at a 2008 hamfet
23:45 < vortexx> the reality is linux dominates the AP market
23:45 < UID0_to_JSON> hamfest*
23:46 < UID0_to_JSON> they get the vendors attention
23:46 < UID0_to_JSON> they get the N and AC blob support and we get leftovers
23:47 < vortexx> BE blobs now
23:47 < UID0_to_JSON> ugh
23:47 < UID0_to_JSON> by the time thsoe are reversed engieneered
23:47 < vortexx> and we don't get leftovers, you need very interested devs for this and OpenBSD only has one
23:47 < UID0_to_JSON> we'll probably be arguing about wifi 9 by then
23:48 < UID0_to_JSON> true vortexx 
23:48 < UID0_to_JSON> it's basically 1 dude against the world
23:49 < UID0_to_JSON> in fact morpho the fact athat you even get 180 mbps on a vpn through an openbsd wireless cleint at all is a testament to how hard that one guy actually works
23:49 < UID0_to_JSON> i'll take the audited driver over a pile of BE blobs any day
23:49 < UID0_to_JSON> even if it means AP in a separate box
23:49 < morpho> its pretty mad actually
23:50 < morpho> i would use freebsd more but im kind of jaded by how much money they get donated to still have crap wireless drivers
23:50 < morpho> seems dodgy
23:50 < morpho> lol
23:50 < UID0_to_JSON> more money doenst always equal better drivers
23:51 < morpho> i would like to learn how to write better hardware support for openbsd
23:51 < UID0_to_JSON> grab something almost supported
23:51 < UID0_to_JSON> like a slightly newer PIC ID for some existing driver
23:52 < morpho> wouldnt even know where to start
23:52 < UID0_to_JSON> !man 9 intro
23:52 < morpho> this device is meant to have 'circular scrolling' like an ipod classic but could not get it to work
23:52 < UID0_to_JSON> .man 9 intro
23:53 < vortexx> morpho: now if Apple would make their damn drivers open source in exchange for using FreeBSD code (and not just FreeBSD's...)
23:54 < UID0_to_JSON> oh man
23:54 < UID0_to_JSON> if apple actually opened surced their stuff
23:54 < vortexx> morpho: so if I understand properly, your NAS will be a laptop with a usb 3.x drive attached to it (hopefully on a 3.x connector)?
23:54 < UID0_to_JSON> we wuold have sme fo the best wifi and pweor management stuff on the planet
23:54 < morpho> its usbc >_<
23:54 < morpho> correct
23:54 < vortexx> many people have done this and been ok
23:54 < vortexx> till the drive dies
23:54 < UID0_to_JSON> yur biggest hurdle isnt the disk
23:54 < morpho> theres two drives
23:54 < UID0_to_JSON> its the acpi
23:55 < fro> did we solve the mandoc problem?! i stepped away
23:55 < vortexx> one internal and one external? both the same size?
23:55 < morpho> 2tb each
23:55 < morpho> luck would have it
23:55 -!- angelwood [~angelwood@user/angelwood] has joined #openbsd
23:55 < vortexx> fro: I think the person with the bug is ready to file a bug and see if it gets fixed the usual way, ie not in here.
23:56 < UID0_to_JSON> rebuilding a 2tb mirro over a usb c/sata bridge will take foorever
23:56 < UID0_to_JSON> and it will hammer your cpu interrupts the whole time
23:56 < morpho> i was just gonna use rsync
23:56 < fro> so back where we started!
23:56 < fro> nice
23:56 < morpho> its a saturday night
23:56 < fro> not quite night here
23:57 < fro> looking forward to the dark
23:57 < vortexx> morpho: well as you were told, raid on OpenBSD isn't great (much worse in fact) so rsync is a good plan. Just have to work out an algo for when to do a copy
23:57 < morpho> in the UTC
23:57 < morpho> probably can just manually call them
23:58 < vortexx> so long as nothing is uploading is fine, and the previous rsync finished
23:58 < UID0_to_JSON> the second you start that 2tb rsync over USB C trying to maintaing 180 mbps vpn, you're going to hit a wall that has nothing to do with disk speed
23:59 < UID0_to_JSON> xhci and wg are botoh heavy users ofo the kernels network and i/o tasks, but a loot ofoo it is still pinned to a single cpu cure interrupt handling
23:59 < vortexx> 8*www/ungoogled-chromium(build) [64577] 69% <--another 12 hours I reckon
23:59 < UID0_to_JSON> yu'll see one coro ehit 100% and the others idle
23:59 < UID0_to_JSON> and if the usb coontrooller hogs the interrupt, your wg handshakes will start timing out
--- Log closed Sun Mar 15 00:00:00 2026