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05:39 < rkta> looks like since I apllied the smtpd patch via syspatch security(8) is complaining about Setuid changes, how can I fix this? I don't spot a difference in ls -l output compared with another box also running 7.8.
05:40 < zelest> It's not complaining, it's informing.
05:41 < zelest> syspatch replaced that setuid binary with another one, hence the security(8) alert
05:42 < rkta> I still don't need that alert every morning.
05:42 < zelest> You shouldn't get that every morning? Only once?
05:42 < rkta> That's what I thought.
05:43 < rkta> yet, I got another email today. That's why I say it's complaining. :)
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06:53 < vortexx> rkta: are you using mtree by any chance?
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06:55 < rkta> vortexx: Not that I know of.
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06:59 < vortexx> I use mtree as a sort of tripwire, so if a file changes in a dir that mtree has created a hash for it'll end up in the daily insecurity email. When I run syspatch on the box, after that I run my mtree script again so that notification comes once not over and over
07:01 < quinq> rkta, just be polite and send an email back acknowledging the notification “ok got it”
07:01 < rkta> quinq: Didn't expect it to be that easy, thanks.
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07:02 < quinq> (just in case, that's a joke :))
07:03 < rkta> I know.
07:04 < quinq> :>
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12:49 < renaud> I really like the idea of using Microsoft free computing power to find bugs in OpenBSD
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12:52 < renaud> IcePic: reading your undeadly article
12:54 < renaud> IcePic: I am making an OpenBSD VM on github workflows to run AFL fuzzing
12:55 < renaud> It takes time though :)
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12:56 < renaud> 3 more bugs to report today
13:01 < mischief> renaud: have you ever tried klee?
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13:01 < renaud> nope
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13:03 < renaud> interesting
13:05 < mischief> its been like 8 years since i last used it probably, not even sure it would build on openbsd
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13:12 < renaud> OK, last bug for today sent
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13:17 < IcePic> renaud: nice that you bring along fixes though
13:18 < renaud> yes, some are trivial, but the more complex ones should be verified
13:18 < renaud> not saying the trivial ones shouldn't :)
13:20 < renaud> it seems github has some limit on how much workers can be run in parallel in addition to time, so I cannot check everything at once
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13:21 < renaud> the plan is to scan the whole userland, but, for example, I have problems with OpenSMTPD, but since it also compiles on linux, I found the issue under linux and reproduced on OpenBSD
13:21 < unrznbl> oldlaptop, thanks for the help, I updated packages with and ports tree and that enabled me to build www/kiwix. I am now serving a local copy of wikipedia. :)
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13:31 < qbit> https://cvsweb.openbsd.org/log/src/usr.bin/tmux/screen-write.c,v?sort=File
13:31 < qbit>  From Chris Lloyd with the assistance of Claude Code, GitHub issue 4744.
13:31 < qbit> coolcol
13:39 < renaud> if someone could check my thinproxy port so it lands under 7.9, that would really be nice
13:43 < renaud> https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-ports&m=177482380404582&w=2
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13:58 < moviuro> hi all, I moved some of my domains to short-lived certificates (`profile "shortlived"` in acme-clmient.conf(5)), however I didn't find any definitive instruction on how to refresh the cert from running services (including, but not limited to: smtpd(8), httpd(8), dovecot). Wouldn't it make sense to indicate how those should be told to reload their cert? (httpd(8) just needs a reload, but OpenSMTPd
13:58 < moviuro> needs a restart (I think?)) Where should that be documented?
13:58 < avemestr> Hmmm, slop into OpenBSD: https://github.com/openbsd/src/commit/9c2b8e445a0bdfafdd6148b1760f00aa5429627b
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14:00 < Bradipo> Hmm, I thought there was a recent thread about accepting slop into OpenBSD.
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14:01 < Bradipo> Though, I guess that commit actually predates the recent thread.
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14:10 < zbcm> how is it slop
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14:12 < RobbieAB> zbcm: It was written by claude...
14:12 < zbcm> I agree. I was just curious if they had an opinion on the code committed.
14:13 < RobbieAB> Though I don't personally adhere to the argument that it is problematic simply because someone used a tool other than a weather butterfly to write the code file.
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14:16 < Bradipo> The arguments set forth have been "only humans can hold copyrights" and "lines of code might be GPL".
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14:19 < zbcm> Claude just accidentally leaked their entire codebase, so maybe you can audit it to be sure.
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14:20 < unrznbl> I have a thinkpad w500 that seems to be stuck at "acpi0: sleep states S0 S3 S4 S5" when booted. I have restarted several times recently with no issue. Did "shutdown -h now" and twice now am stuck after power cycle w/ power-button long-press to turn off.
14:20 < renaud> you can still use Claude to _find_ bugs, just not solve them
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14:24 < quinq> zbcm, source? :D
14:26 < renaud> we are nearby 1st of April
14:27 < renaud> but it seems they indeed leaked some ingo
14:27 < renaud> s/ingo/info/
14:28 < renaud> but even if they leaked the full models, you would still not be able to run that at home unless you are quite rich
14:31  * oldlaptop doesn't figure copyright is likely to be much of an issue with https://cvsweb.openbsd.org/diff/src/usr.bin/tmux/screen-write.c,v?rev=1.242&prev=1.241
14:32 < oldlaptop> that seems pretty close to the line of 'not copyright-eligible anyway'
14:32 < renaud> it has been discussed in lenght with the ext4fs patch
14:32 < morpho> unrznbl: is xorg hanging do you know where it hangs?
14:32 < unrznbl> I unplugged the power cable and the laptop started right up. Ok.
14:32 < unrznbl> it was hanging early in the kernel startup I guess, at the message I mentioned: acpi0: sleep states S0 S3 S4 S5
14:32 < oldlaptop> renaud: I think there's a pretty obvious difference in kind there.
14:33 < morpho> obsd used to not have all these acpi things a few years ago
14:33 < morpho> it can induce into higher/lower c-states on the cpu
14:33 < oldlaptop> https://man.openbsd.org/acpi "The acpi driver first appeared in OpenBSD 3.8."
14:34 < morpho> does that mention c-states
14:34 < unrznbl> so maybe a bug in there somewhere, for acpithinkpad
14:35 < renaud> oldlaptop: IANAL
14:35 < oldlaptop> (That's covered in acpicpu(4), though not at much length. Much newer - that first appeared in OpenBSD 3.9.)
14:35 < oldlaptop> renaud: (that almost goes without saying... :))
14:35 < unrznbl> I am not using xorg. But once I reach a login without the power cord inserted I can re-insert the powercord and nothing crashes.
14:37 < morpho> sometimes drivers get added as a stub and lack the features found in other os
14:37 < Bradipo> I see that same hang on the "sleep states" on a Nuc, however, it isn't a permanent condition and usually continues on after 5 seconds or so.
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14:37 < quinq> renaud, it's still amazing that they can leak their own codebase like that…
14:37 < oldlaptop> unrznbl: IIRC those machines have switchable graphics with a toggle in the firmware ("BIOS" - maybe still is BIOS?) settings - toggling that off might be worth trying
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14:37 < unrznbl> cool. thanks oldlaptop
14:38 < morpho> so the tpm driver is also in the acpi driver but we cant use it, its just to satisfy the requirement on machines that do have it
14:38 < oldlaptop> (stab in the dark - and would paper over a problem)
14:39 < morpho> good idea
14:39 < renaud> quinq: what tells you it's not a "commercial" leak? They only leaked some NPM data for claude code cli which reveals the roadmap and some easter eggs. Not that a big deal
14:39 < oldlaptop> That's also pretty old - there's been plenty of time for regressions in the decade or so since late-core2 thinkpads were really commonly used...
14:40 < morpho> social :)
14:41 < oldlaptop> (meaning if you were interested in digging deep enough to mail in a bug, it'd be potentially fruitful to bisect for the release in which the issue first appears)
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14:42 < unrznbl> oldlaptop, sounds good! I am here to eventually contribute. :) 
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14:43  * oldlaptop knows someone with a... can't remember if it's T400, T500, or W500 laying around, but it'd be a bad test case, there's something actively wrong with its discrete GPU
14:43 < renaud> quinq: ah, no they leaked more, but still claude code cli only. That could help port it to OpenBSD :D
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19:50 < avemestr> oldlaptop: https://bsd.network/@brynet/116324983359650447 < if you recall me asking about scheduling to "efficiency cores"... there's now a "fix" so one can be sure processes are NOT directed to them.
19:51 < avemestr> The quotes around fix was not to indicate that it doesn't work. I just find the Intel architecture silly and the new sysctl removes some of the sillyness.
19:52 < sibiria> band-aid fix, but when in need of a bandage it's better than nothing
19:53 < sibiria> big-little is everywhere in the Arm world, too. i think the concept is useful
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20:00 < avemestr> At $dayjob we are issued Thinkpads with 2 performance cores (4 threads) and 8 efficiency cores. 12 threads in total. Even applications like Excel seem unaware of "thread type", so some calculation takes forever when the thread it uses happens to be on one of the efficiency cores - which there's a high risk of every time doing calculations.
20:01 < avemestr> Said Thinkpads have such simple BIOSes that it's not even possible to disable E-cores there, which used to be a trick.
20:01 < avemestr> So quite nice that OpenBSD makes this possible. A step ahead what's possible on Windows it seems.
20:02 < thrig> $dayjob[-2] often issue the cheapest and wurstest laptopen
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20:08 < sibiria> macOS offers process awareness for this. can also instruct the OS to not schedule a process onto the efficiency cores. useful at times
20:09  * oldlaptop has a nasty feeling this is one of those concepts that "feels" useful, perhaps even "should be" useful, but won't actually ever get used properly
20:09 < sibiria> macOS makes great use of it
20:10 < sibiria> so much of the OS background stuff runs well and needs no more than the low-perf cores. all of those things are scheduled there
20:10 < sibiria> no need for those things to eat performance, or eat power
20:10 < oldlaptop> Maybe for Apple's own built-in applications - how's adoption by ISVs working?
20:10 < oldlaptop> (Or do they make slow CPUs an opt-in thing? That might work out pretty well.)
20:11 < sibiria> it works equally well for them
20:11 < oldlaptop> Meaning what?
20:11 < sibiria> you can set the policy as you wish
20:11 < oldlaptop> Everybody actually uses it?
20:11 < oldlaptop> Or the ISV doesn't need to do anything?
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20:11 < sibiria> by default, processes are scheduled onto any/all cores
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20:12 < oldlaptop> (I suppose if there's *one* platform on which the ISVs can be made to adopt some disruptive new API Or Else(TM), it'll be OSX.)
20:12 < sibiria> you can set a policy for the application to run in either segment, and the user can also override this at launch if they want
20:13 < oldlaptop> That might be workable then. I wonder how the, erm, "less technical" user population likes that.
20:13 < sibiria> developers may be expected to make suitable decision
20:14 < sibiria> apple's documentation etc. has always been very good at guiding developers
20:14 < pardis> would probably help avoid bloat if developers were locked out of using performance cores when developing anything at all
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20:17 < thrig> this would fail as devs would throw things etc unless most shiny
20:19  * oldlaptop just throws things that are missing the trackpoint
20:19 < Bradipo> Anything that can be done to make Libreoffice run better on my OpenBSD systems?
20:19 < Bradipo> It seems to struggle with even small documents.
20:20 < oldlaptop> I guess updating to a snapshot that disables "lethargic" CPUs by default might help...
20:20 < thrig> last time I got an excel document (in the previous decade) I ssh'd over to a linux box to run office something and there was much swearing
20:20 < Bradipo> Yeah, well, I don't have any Linux here.
20:21 < Bradipo> Libreoffice runs, it's just pitifully choppy.
20:21 < Bradipo> Which I don't understand because other programs are just fine.
20:21 < oldlaptop> ISTR there's some switch for OpenGL acceleration that might work better flipped one way or the other
20:21 < Bradipo> Yeah, I looked for a pkg-readmes, but didn't find one.
20:22 < thrig> mostly because the excel document had (hidden on tab 2 or something) a few ip/port pairs that easily could have been .csv or simply pasted into a text email
20:24 < sibiria> neanderthal computer users are everywhere
20:24 < Bradipo> There's an option to enable OpenCL... not OpenGL, right.
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20:27 < oldlaptop> that'd be completely different
20:27 < Bradipo> Yeah, doesn't seem to be related.
20:28 < oldlaptop> (That was last decade's - decade before last, even, now? - cool concept that never really wound up being useful, GPGPU for everything)
20:28  * oldlaptop is sort of expecting "NPUs" to turn out the same way
20:30 < sibiria> GPGPU is heavily used in 3D rendering
20:30 < sibiria> Blender, Maya, Cinema 4D, etc. they all do it these days
20:31 < sibiria> for some time, x264 (the h.264 encoder) offered an OpenCL compile path, too, which was pretty damned snappy. not sure why they stopped maintaining it
20:32 < sibiria> and probably to no one's surprise, GPGPU was/is all the rage in GPU-based cryptomining
20:32 < oldlaptop> It's used for a few specialized applications it makes sense for (and which generally benefit from a *real* GPU) - but AMD never got their brave new world where half of every CPU is graphics processing and everything uses it
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20:32 < Bradipo> Seems I'm not the only one to have noticed: https://www.reddit.com/r/openbsd/comments/1ol2uy5/libreoffice_is_no_longer_usable/
20:32 < sibiria> NPUs come off as far more versatile and interesting components, but indeed pretty few things make use of them so far
20:33 < oldlaptop> (although "integrated" graphics generally *did* migrate onto the CPU package)
20:33 < sibiria> almost entirely in-phone stuff, e.g. the things Apple use NPUs for in iOS. not much see in the regular desktop world
20:33 < sibiria> seen*
20:34 < Bradipo> One comment mentioned SAL_USE_VCLPLUGIN=gen
20:34 < Bradipo> Apparently that makes the UI look not as nice, but it runs very well now.
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20:39 < oldlaptop> Bradipo: I can see that being a major reason it might not happen for everyone - some will end up with the GTK ones, and some will end up with the Qt ones. https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/Environment_variables#List_of_environment_variables
20:39 < Bradipo> Well, I'm not setting anything specific for LibreOffice.  I'm using fvwm.
20:40 < Bradipo> I supose I could try one of the gtk options, but qt5 and qt6 are terrible.
20:40 < Bradipo> Assuming they even have any effect.
20:40 < Bradipo> All values look the same to me except "gen".
20:47 < oldlaptop> depending on which flavor you have installed, the Qt/KDE ones might not even work
20:47 < Bradipo> libreoffice-25.8.1.1v0
20:48 < Bradipo> I didn't know there were multiple flavors...
20:48 < brynet> That reddit post was about this libwind regression, which was fixed in -stable by robert@ https://ftp.openbsd.org/pub/OpenBSD/patches/7.8/common/006_libunwind.patch.sig
20:48 < Bradipo> What reddit post?
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20:49 < brynet> < Bradipo> Seems I'm not the only one to have noticed: https://www.reddit.com/r/openbsd/comments/1ol2uy5/libreoffice_is_no_longer_usable/
20:49 < oldlaptop> by the look of it the qt6/kf6 "plugins" probably only work for the -kde flavor? https://cvsweb.openbsd.org/checkout/ports/editors/libreoffice/Makefile,v?rev=1.340
20:49 < Bradipo> That reddit post is about libunwind?  Interesting.
20:50 < brynet> yes, that's the issue sthen mentioned being fixed
20:50 < Bradipo> So libunwind was making libreoffice slow?
20:50 < brynet> https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-cvs&m=176216089824599&w=2
20:51 < Bradipo> Checking...
20:52 < brynet> I'm not saying it's your issue, just not the one you linked. :]
20:52 < Bradipo> Right.  Well, I have all the patches... I think.
20:53 < brynet> always good to double check..
20:53 < Bradipo> I'm patched up to 023_calendar.
20:53 < Bradipo> So you're saying that it's possible that libunwind may have been a cause of libreoffice slowness?
20:55 < brynet> I'm saying it's mentioned in that commit. :)
20:56 < Bradipo> Right, the macro...
20:56 < Bradipo> Well, in this case, it really seems like it's the UI itself that's slow.
20:56 < Bradipo> Unless the macro shares the same code paths as the UI.
20:56 < Bradipo> Interesting find, thanks.
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21:16 < Bradipo> At any rate, I've just added the following to my .fvwmrc: Exec exec libreoffice -env:SAL_USE_VCLPLUGIN=gen
21:17 < Bradipo> Seems to work admirably.  Libreoffice might be ugly, but at least it runs well now.
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21:33 < oldlaptop> not any uglier than fvwm! :P
21:34 < thrig> nothing some rounded corners can't fix
21:34  * oldlaptop might argue it actually is - those corny mid-2000s-java gradients on all the toolbars...
21:40 < Bradipo> Actually, I find fvwm not too bad.
21:42 < oldlaptop> It definitely doesn't have corny mid-2000s-java gradients.
21:43 < oldlaptop> (probably someone has a mid-2000s fvwmrc to do those)
21:46 < Bradipo> Hmm, I guess fvwm does support gradients... interesting.
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22:02 < dansa> Speaking of window managers, I gotta say I am totally in love with cwm.  It is simply what I always thought a window manager should be.
22:04 < dansa> And speaking of OpenBSD, my hibernation (suspension to disk) is pretty slow, both on suspending and on coming back up after boot, but it's the suspension that really takes a long while.  Is that some hardware taking a long time to shut down or could it be the fact that I designed my swap space with too much space?  I have 24 GiB of RAM, so I made the swap space to be 48 GiB.  I exaggerated, right?
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22:12 < sibiria> dansa: openbsd's hibernate doesn't omit cached memory pages, but writes the entire RAM to disk. this is why it's taking a while
22:14 < sibiria> modern good NVMe have actual (synchronous) write speeds of some 800-1000 mb/sec.
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--- Log closed Wed Apr 01 00:00:44 2026