--- Log opened Thu Apr 02 00:00:45 2026
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01:04 < oiram> talking about dumps on april fools?
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02:13  * oldlaptop meditates on the long-standing use of AI code generators such as llvm and gcc (apropos of https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=177507171827044&w=2 dramaz)
02:15 < thrig> we might reserve "AI" for how John McCarthy used it, a made-up term to get money for a grant
02:15 < oldlaptop> (I don't know if optimizing C compliers' documentation ever describes them as "artificial intelligence". At least one optimizing SQL compiler sure does: https://sqlite.org/queryplanner.html)
02:15 < oldlaptop> (and did looooong before the present bubble)
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02:18 < thrig> "AI" used to refer to what today is a graph search (Paradigms of AI Programming for details)
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02:23 < oldlaptop> exactly which artificial is intelligent seems to change after every winter
02:23 < oldlaptop> oh - *artifice*, obviously
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03:24 < Bradipo> Is marc.info broken?
03:24 < Bradipo> Or is it just me?  If I go to https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-bugs and then search the Subjects for awk, it just returns back to the page as if no search were entered.
03:25 < Bradipo> Sorry, not awk, rs.
03:25 < Bradipo> Maybe it doesn't like short search terms.
03:25 < Bradipo> Never mind, it's just being dumb and not returning an error on short search terms.
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11:50 < f451> is it possible to tell the installation media to use hdmi before or during the uboot phase? this is for arm64
11:54 < vortexx> yes, that can be set in boot.conf. However the install kernel may not have fb0 support
11:55 < f451> where would boot.conf be, on the install media? because there's no /etc in there, i don't think
11:55 < vortexx> you had to use rdsetroot to add it to the bsd.rd
11:57 < vortexx> boot.conf goes in /etc
11:57 < vortexx> (I suppose you're trying to wrangle an install to work on RPi5)
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11:58 < f451> yup ;) you guessed it. i have no spare serial cable
12:00 < f451> so id mount an install img on another obsd box and rdsetroot the bsd.rd of the install img
12:01 < f451> hmm. no
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12:03 < f451> i had hoped there might be somewhere on the install img i could write boot.cfg
12:03 < f451> its very chicken and egg lol
12:05 < carlomonte> this is the reason why i didnt install openbsd on rpis. i mean, serial console? in 2026? on a machine that has no dedicated RS232 (well you can solder one)??
12:05 < renaud> what? is rpi5 supported now?
12:05 < carlomonte> can't they please fix this? it's maddening.
12:06 < carlomonte> or better: be consequent and require serial on notebooks. than no one will install there either
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12:06 < carlomonte> :-P
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12:07 < carlomonte> f451: after you install please use sendbug(1) and complain
12:08 < vortexx> renaud: it is
12:09 < vortexx> according to https://www.openbsd.org/arm64.html
12:09 < renaud> yes, I was reading it too, even on 7.8 already
12:09 < vortexx> carlomonte: serial ports are not going to go away, in one form or another
12:09 < vortexx> (and yes I was surprised too for rpi5 support)
12:10 < carlomonte> nor is hdmi. really, from a useability POW, install should work with the device as it is (it has HDMI and no serial).
12:10 < carlomonte> serial AS AN OPTION is ok. but default? NO
12:10 < renaud> cool, I will try out later, I have got a spare one and I was trying to get an arm64 for -current
12:11 < carlomonte> make the serial users edit bsd.rd :-/
12:14 < vortexx> carlomonte: I think you fail to understand how OpenBSD gets developed. If serial works but HDMI doesn't, the dev is usually satisfied. HDMI is bonus. They always have the serial cables required. It's up to the user to have the cables required.
12:15 < f451> if i could get as far as the BOOTAARCH^$ boot :> prompt it'd all be good. problem is i cant get as far as that, just the blue square. So i'm wondering is this even an openbsd issue or is it a uboot issue
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12:16 < f451> is i could get to the prompt i could set tty fb0
12:16 < renaud> If I can ssh into my rpi5 with OpenBSD -current, I am happy too :)
12:16 < f451> ;)
12:17  * f451 wonders if initial console is set in config.txt
12:18 < carlomonte> vortexx: one line is too much work to spare the hassle for hundreds of users?
12:19 < carlomonte> i don't buy it. <sarcasm>i would like to install my notebook per serial by default</sarcasm>
12:20 < renaud> carlomonte: do you have a serial available on your notebook?
12:21 < vortexx> carlomonte: a notebook isn't an arm64 toy board
12:21 < quinq> I wish they'd put back RS232 on laptops
12:22 < carlomonte> renaud: do you have one on you raspberry pi 5 (out of the box, no soldering)?
12:22 < vortexx> https://ftp.openbsd.org/pub/OpenBSD/7.8/arm64/INSTALL.arm64 not seeing a specific RPi 5 bit of instructions there
12:22 < renaud> ahh, the good old serial times. I remember sending a soekris with OpenBSD far away with a modem that was modified to autoanswer, so I could configure the soekris remotely over the phone line, that was fun times.
12:23 < vortexx> serial can be over micro-USB if needed, which a laptop could have. My APU6 has that, it's mighty handy compared to a RS-232 connector
12:23 < carlomonte> theoriy: do they need serial to remote install the raspies in CI/CD?
12:24 < f451> i usually have serial. it's just that on this occasion i dont have a cable. my fault really
12:24 < quinq> Then you need an USB stack in whatever you're executing
12:24 < renaud> If the image is installed, you could mount it on another BSD machine and modify what you want from theer
12:25 < f451> i have a rpi4 openbsd 78 machine
12:25 < renaud> I must admit I didn't read the rpi install docs completely :)
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12:27 < f451> rpi5 these days has a dedicated serial port btwn the two hdmi slots. i dont want that though, id like to use the gpio pins 14 & 15
12:27 < vortexx> speaking of arm64, does anyone have a working kvm/qemu config for OpenBSD/arm64 I could use in virt-manager? Would be handy to have a working arm64 in case some issue or other comes up
12:27 < f451> the new way of doing things is expensive
12:29 < f451> vortexx: id be interested if you, once set up with that, were able to build rust. i don't beleive freebsd is able to in a similar environment, it needs baremetal
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12:31 < renaud> carlomonte: https://www.adafruit.com/category/458
12:32 < carlomonte> renaud: je le sais, mais c'est pas simple, ca coute, je ne l'ai pas maintenant etc.
12:36 < renaud> well, it's 15€ and can be reused, it's not lost
12:37 < renaud> but, yes, you don't have it already on hand
12:37 < carlomonte> my unstated point is: raspberry could be used as a reference/show-off platform. is pretty stable, so development should be easier than supporting the myriad of notebooks. yes, "popularity" is not valuable in itself, but a "recruiting pool" for developers is nonetheless a nice thing to say. do you think that the upcoming LLM generations will be easy to get on the boat?
12:37 < renaud> still, as I said, the install image can be modified
12:38 < renaud> if you think you will be able to use any LLM on an rpi5 with more than 2 words per second for a chatbot...
12:38 < carlomonte> renaud: yes, trivially. when you already have a running BSD and the knowledge. when you have a windows and the web page... well...
12:38 < f451> in what way can it be modified?
12:38 < carlomonte> ??? LLM??? what ??? 
12:39 < renaud> you came with the LLM
12:39 < f451> renaud: i mean in the context i mentioned
12:39 < carlomonte> i said that the current vibecoding generation makes a smaller nerd pool, meaning that projects like OpenBSD will soon be the territory of pensioneers, if we don't cater for the youth. did you read?
12:40 < morpho> a lot of young people done like ai
12:40 < morpho> feel like its more 40 year old middle managers who like that stuff
12:40 < carlomonte> and how do you cater for the younger generation? by offering an easy-to-install "toy" platform. BINGO
12:40 < carlomonte> no serial
12:40 < renaud> but with less hallucinations unless they have smoked something mind altering
12:41 < carlomonte> just my 2c
12:41  * f451 worries about ai
12:41 < renaud> f451: if by context you meant that you would like to use PIN 14&15, then better use an iron solder
12:42  * f451 last used it deliberately to ask when ftp was removed from freebsd base ogpt said 12.0
12:43 < morpho> crash the economy, get government bailouts - ai
12:43 < f451> renaud: no i meant modifying the install image on a rpi4 to output hdmi, writing it to usb, booting (hopefully) rpi5
12:44 < renaud> the problem with AIs will probably be inbreeding at some point
12:45 < ssm_> that's okay we just need to inbreed faster
12:45 < renaud> that reminds the movie idiocracy
12:46 < renaud> f451: if hdmi is supported, that should be easy
12:46 < f451> all my favourite dystopian fiction has become or is becoming reality
12:47 < f451> renaud: trying to find out what to add where in the install media
12:48 < f451> it goes before primary boot so it'll be in uboot
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12:50 < renaud> I would need to read the doc and maybe try out to help with rpi installs
12:50 < renaud> but that doesn't seem that compilcated
12:50 < f451> i think properly formulated the q i need to ask is, 'how to tell u-boot to output to hdmi'. asking it about openbsd is a red herring
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12:51 < renaud> there is a config.txt as far as I can see
12:51 < f451> yeahbos all this is happening well before getting to the first stage of booting, thinking about it
12:51 < vortexx> carlomonte: I look forward to your code contributions enabling a install image with hdmi output on boot then.
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12:52 < renaud> it seems you need a recent enough u-boot
12:53 < vortexx> do rpi 4 & 5 even use the same firmware ?
12:53 < f451> a selection would be good ;) when installing to rpi4, (last did this last year), i made it do serial
12:53 < renaud> vortexx: probably not
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12:53 < f451> vortexx: no
12:54 < carlomonte> vortexx. nope, openbsd is for me infrastructure. my project is a programming language. you can be a test user if you wish.
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12:58 < renaud> as far as I can see, you won't get console on hdmi on an rpi5 with OpenBSD
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12:59 < renaud> https://www.mail-archive.com/arm@openbsd.org/msg03100.html
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14:50 < f451> renaud: https://forums.raspberrypi.com/viewtopic.php?t=362821 3 pin GPIO tty on rpi5. look at the config.txt
14:52 < f451> dtparam=uart0_console   # Enable UART0/ttyAMA0 on GPIO 14 & 15 and make it the console UART
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14:56 < f451> eeprom output is *only* presented at the 3 pin JST connector, though. dunno if we need that
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14:58 < f451> if we need that then the *only* way we get proper serial is the new rpi debug probe
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15:00 < f451> or i can install to a rpi4 them move the install to the rpi5
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17:32 < izder456> this is probably a stupid question. what are the pkg_* tools called? like do they have an official nickname for the package tools. like FreeBSD has "pkg" or "pkgng" or "package next generation". is it just called pkg_* and that's that? please point me to the correct docs.
17:34 < izder456> packages(7) calls them "the binary package system" apparently. is this just what people call it?
17:36 < thrig> packages works
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18:00 < WrezHole> f451: https://imgur.com/a/uHOMCdW
18:04 < WrezHole> f451: you need 3pin jst. 3pin GPIO not working. :(
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18:10 < mischief> nice lora hat
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18:22 < WrezHole> mischief: yes... Having fun :) 
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18:23 < WrezHole> mischief: trying to get it working with obsd
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18:28 < f451> WrezHole: did you try dtparam=uart0_console in config.txt ?
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18:30 < f451> cos if that doesnt work then i think i'll need to install it via the rpi4, but that machine is 'production' so need to schedule downtime in the early hrs
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18:37 < vortexx> f451: may I ask what its duties are?
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18:55 < WrezHole> f451: i try alot to get it working with GPIO but i failed don't remember if i tryed dtparam
18:56 < WrezHole> but i think i did 
18:58 < f451> dtparam?
18:58 < f451> it functions kind of like bios commands as i understand it
18:59 < f451> pi5 would explicitly need that line. taken from https://forums.raspberrypi.com/viewtopic.php?t=362821
19:02 < f451> WrezHole: this entry https://forums.raspberrypi.com/viewtopic.php?p=2176568&sid=f3b29c0ca1044744e38bac14dffb17ee#p2176568
19:03 < f451> vortexx: small web server, unbound, ssh jumphost it's also UPS host 
19:04 < vortexx> nice
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19:05 < f451> openbsd has been very stable with it
19:08 < f451> i also read all my mailing list email off it via mutt. it's in interactive use all the time. runs off a 1tb crucial ssd. ethernet only though, which is deliverate
19:08 < f451> deliberate
19:09 < f451> its surprisingly quick given theres no aes chip
19:10 < WrezHole> f451: reading. need to try that someday 
19:11 < f451> WrezHole: ill let you know tomorrow i ordered 2x serial cables og the type to go into the gpio
19:12 < f451> says theyll arrive tomorrow
19:12 < WrezHole> f451: my rpi5 works really good with openbsd :)
19:12 < f451> yeah i think it would if the pi4 performance is anything to go by :D
19:13 < f451> the pi4 has whole disk encryption which is why it has a permanently connected serial to gpio header
19:14 < thrig> they've been going downhill as an approximation of pi
19:14 < WrezHole> f451: highlite me here when you tryied 
19:14 < f451> ok :D
19:15 < WrezHole> my first try to install it was the release of 7.8
19:15 < WrezHole> then i needed to have the snapshot to install it.
19:16 < f451> maybe i should use the 7.9 snap if work was still ongoing
19:16 < f451> ive been trying both
19:16 < lusciouslover> can anyone else not get through cloudflare anymore with qutebrowser?
19:16 < lusciouslover> on linux i can get through it fine but not obsd
19:17 < f451> how do you mean 'get through it'. a specific url?
19:17 < f451> i can try
19:18 < lusciouslover> https://yume.wiki/Main_Page
19:18 < WrezHole> f451: install raspberrypi-firmware
19:18 < lusciouslover> i cant get through the cloudflare captcha or bot check or whatever you call it
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19:20 < thrig> bots may be better at solving some of those than humans are
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19:20 < f451> i tried it in lynx and it 403s cos i aint got javascript
19:21 < f451> maybe it's a javascript thing
19:21 < lusciouslover> maybe but its not like qutebrowser doesnt have javascript and this issue only started up within the last few days
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19:21 < f451> lusciouslover: try it in latest firefix or librewolf
19:22 < f451> how old is the js implementation on quotebrowser tho, maybe cloudflare doesnt like it
19:23 < f451> laters, dinner 
19:23 < lusciouslover> like i said it works fine on linux but im sure the version in the ports is older than the one im using on linux
19:23 < f451> mb thats it
19:24 < lusciouslover> i just wanted to ask here in case anyone was also using the one from the ports and isnt having this issue 
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19:25 < f451> sorry cant help directly, no gui installed here atm in obsd
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19:32 < vortexx> f451: https://github.com/agherzan/meta-raspberrypi/issues/1394
19:32 < vortexx> looks like you need to set up config.txt with a number of parameters to get "earlycon"
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20:12 < hollywood> does tmux in wscons support utf-8? it doesn't display characters with accents
20:13 < uwharrie> s/in wscons// -> no
20:13 < uwharrie> err, flip that around
20:16 < hollywood> wscons supports utf8, neatvi supports utf8 in wscons. Tmux doesn't maybe i should just try a different multiplexer
20:16 < uwharrie> wscons has very limited UTF-8 support
20:16 < hollywood> wscons supports it just not tmux
20:21 < vortexx> there's always screen in packages
20:22 < vortexx> that does support utf8 apparently (I just checked) but if the terminal has limited support, so will screen be limited
20:22 < vortexx> you have to use X11 to get utf8 support
20:22 < vortexx> or rather, full utf8 support
20:22 < uwharrie> tmux supports utf-8 if the underlying terminal emulator does
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20:24 < uwharrie> or you can force it, but it's going to be a very ISO-8859-1 like experience in wscons
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20:26 < vortexx> yeah you're not going to get that thai alphabet support in wscons
20:27 < vortexx> there's plenty of japanese contributors to OpenBSD, they don't have support for their alphabet either
20:28 < hollywood> thankfully wscons does support it, simply tmux does no and neither does screen. Guess i'll live without tmux
20:28 < uwharrie> have you tried forcing tmux into utf-8 mode?
20:29 < uwharrie> and double checked your TERM and locale
20:29 < vortexx> it would help if you told us WHICH locale you need
20:31 < hollywood> yea i tried forcing tmux to UTF-8. Locale is es_DO.UTF-8
20:32 < sibiria> weird. because tmux does support utf-8 just fine
20:32 < sibiria> utf-8/unicode
20:32 < sibiria> 🥸
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20:33 < hollywood> yea it does on my linux machine on wayland just not on openbsd wscons ik it's weird
20:34 < hollywood> this might be an interesting solution but i'm gonna try cage+foot my machine is simply too slow for a whole X11 implementation
20:35 < hollywood> i've never tried wayland on openbsd
20:35 < uwharrie> if X is too slow nothing else doing bitmapped or composited graphics is going to fare better
20:37 < hollywood> worth a try anyway i'm curious if it works, even if it's slow
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20:41 < hollywood> sure enough it works
20:42 < hollywood> i think i'll just use wscons and live without tmux tho
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--- Log closed Fri Apr 03 00:00:47 2026