--- Log opened Tue Apr 14 00:00:02 2026
00:00 < oldlaptop> ffs/ffs2 have been "stress tested" for well over 30 years
00:01 < oldlaptop> there are not very many production filesystems with a longer record, especially if you want unix semantics
00:04 < elarks> right, but i meant something like deliberately breakig things and see if fsck can fix it
00:04 < oldlaptop> (is there any production OS for which FAT$N is an adequate root filesystem anymore? I'd disqualify FreeDOS on "misnamed: not an operating system" grounds. (It's not their fault, Microsoft started that particular lie, long enough ago that it was more defensible at the time))
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00:07 < pardis> works well for Dusk OS, but that may not qualify as "production"
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00:11 < thrig> XFS used to randomly go read-only; Reiser FS would corrupt itself; very expensive NAS would corrupt themselves, etc
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00:16 < tvtoon> buy RAM, use it instead
00:17 < eea> 192gb ddr5 and what do i do? irc... some perl stuff, some browser stuff
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00:19 < phy1729> UEFI is nearly an OS and requires FAT32 iirc
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00:21 < mischief> it's the only required fs, but it can use others
00:23 < mischief> for example if you use the ffs2 driver from https://efi.akeo.ie/ you could boot a UEFI system with only ffs2 filesystems and no FAT
00:23 < mischief> (i did not test this)
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00:28 < tvtoon> I wonder how many people use UEFI that much
00:28 < thrig> the uefi filesystems are probbaly not hammered on alot?
00:28 < tvtoon> to test this stuff on different boards, never had the curiosity
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02:08 < oldlaptop> Hm - how well does the concept of a "root filesystem" apply to UEFI?
02:09 < oldlaptop> you could do... "interesting" things that look more like having a "root filesystem" than the usual bootloader stuff it's supposed to be there for
02:13 < dg> someone made games in uefi... https://github.com/mycroftsnm/UEFIGame "Win -> Boot, Lose -> Shutdown"
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02:14 < dg> but that's not writing high scores, obvious enhancement...
02:15 < seninha> Hi, do you think makefiles (for software and upstream projects, not for a port) should implement an “install" target? Destination paths depend on the target system more than compilation flags, and it's one thing that porters need often to fiddle with, by setting the destination of manpages or binaries from /usr/bin to /usr/local/bin...
02:15 < seninha> Like, shouldn't makefiles just make binaries?  And let installation to the porter (or user, who should be either packaging it and rely on the system's package manager; or installing in ~/.local/bin and bypassing `make install` anyway).
02:19 < thrig> some Makefile do only make binaries, others also do an install thing
02:21 < dg> if the Makefile is good then setting PREFIX=$HOME/.local will work for make install into ~/.local
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02:25 < mischief> these days i'd use meson for just about anything, it's only a few lines for something that DTRT. make sucks.
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02:46 < oldlaptop> make is everywhere (to a first approximation), and a handier general-purpose tool than is often appreciated
02:47 < oldlaptop> how easy is it to do this with meson? https://github.com/oldlaptop/xcelite-99-blade-case/blob/master/Makefile
02:47 < pardis> and it's most often appreciated by people who have never heard of non-GNU makes
02:48 < oldlaptop> (also for solvespace, although less useful as it doesn't have any equivalent to openscad -D: https://github.com/oldlaptop/license-plate-hardware-bracket/blob/master/Makefile)
02:51 < oldlaptop> other fun .SUFFIXES to play with (not sure offhand if I have them laying around on github): .tex .dvi .ps .pdf (or so); .sql .sqlite (that one is awkward since you might want to go in either direction, which accidentally works in one makefile for GNU make but not openbsd make) 
02:52 < oldlaptop> .ly .pdf .midi (or so), for the musically-inclined
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03:05 < thrig> .roff.pdf: TROFFMACS=tmac. troff -mt ${.IMPSRC} | dpost | ps2pdf - ${.TARGET}
03:08 < mischief> not that hard. you can write arbitrary generators in meson, though less terse (and less obtuse)
03:08 < thrig> make is also in base, what's the supply chain situation for meson like?
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03:09 < mischief> only needs python3
03:09 < mischief> there is also a straight c implementation, though i haven't used it
03:11 < mischief> uh, and ninja i suppose, since meson generates ninja
03:12 < mischief> make is fine and all, if you like it, use it
03:13 < mischief> but i pretty much don't trust anyone to write a good, portable makefile
03:14 < thrig> indeed, I write BSD Makefile so you'll have to use bsdmake after the gnufail
03:14 < seninha> dg, i have yet to see a good written makefile...
03:16 < seninha> oldlaptop, except those; those are good
03:19 < quinq> seninha, you're not looking in the good places
03:20 < quinq> mischief, it's pretty easy
03:22 < mischief> it's also easy to write really bad makefiles
03:23 < quinq> It's also pretty easy to fall off a bridge
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03:41 < thrig> especially if the bridge has overly strict firewall rules
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03:44 < quinq> ^^
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04:07 < thrig> granted the last bridging firewall I setup was screening off a Windows system the vendor said "no patches ever" and the users wanted to browse the web on
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08:58 < Ozymandias42> something that has me a bit confused. I've been wondering for a while about the feature overlap between the MAC systems, container-isolation and sandboxing tech, bpf and seccomp. Some of this is quite obviously inspired by bsd based counterparts. Now I can more or less map most of the non MAC stuff to BSD equivalents but unless I missed something
08:58 < Ozymandias42> there's no MAC on BSD. Is that correct?
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09:03 < IcePic> Ozymandias42: I think freebsd may have something like it
09:03 < IcePic> https://docs.freebsd.org/en/books/handbook/mac/
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09:05 < Ozymandias42> IcePic, nice! so that means there is pretty much feature parity after all in regards to security mechanisms
09:07 < Ozymandias42> it is interesting that of all the bsd's freebsd has that though. I mean with jails there isn't too much of a motivation for MAC.
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09:07 < IcePic> while there is an overlap of the things you mentioned, the tools do operate on different levels, and hence have slightly different ideas on how they protect your system
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09:10 < IcePic> its a bit like extended acls on linux, it is fancyful, expressive, fine-grained and .. mostly unused.
09:10 < IcePic> majority of the internet are still at "I think chmod 777 was the solution to my publish-file-on-the-web issue"
09:11 < Ozymandias42> yeah, the most useful thing I could find for extended attributes was for tagging files. Which is potentially interesting for search functions and could be allowed to be done by classification AI with little risk too if one wanted to
09:12 < Ozymandias42> dolphin actually supports setting these tags and creating virtual lists of all files it is aware of with arbitrary tags
09:13 < IcePic> I get that it is good for samba servers, to hold windows perms, but apart from that, there doesn't seem to be a wide adoption, so it ends up being one of those "yes, we have it" and 99.9% of the users are almost not aware of it, how it works, how to debug when it is wrong and so forth
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09:14 < Ozymandias42> macOS uses it too for some spotlight attributes I think. one especially nice attribute was the source url one for files obtained via the browser
09:14 < IcePic> so its one more thing obsd doesn't have, but its also something of a non-issue. If you compare feature lists, obsd is "lacking", but still.
09:15 < Ozymandias42> only serves to show how little is truly essential for the vast majority of use cases
09:15 < Ozymandias42> and if anything is needed that obsd doesn't bring it has the blunt force solution in vmm now
09:16 < IcePic> yes
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09:20 < Ozymandias42> I'm not a bsd user myself especially not a long term one so I can't really judge the mentality here but what's your opinion on nix or the way it does package management? it's pretty much platform agnostic so it could jsut as well be used on bsds. I think there's even experimental support on freebsd. I'd think it's something potentially less
09:20 < Ozymandias42> interesting here as everything is of one source so the problem it solves is less of an issue on bsds
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09:21 < morpho> what problem does nix solve
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09:22 < Ozymandias42> depedency conflicts and to some extent (binary) reproducible builds
09:23 < IcePic> Ozymandias42: yeah, bsds are already closer to that I gather, even if not being 100%
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09:23 < IcePic> since something like 30 years or so, the local compiler on obsd would not add dates to object files, so that you could verify that certain changes in source did not alter the output of the compile
09:24 < morpho> ive not had any dependency issues on openbsd because pkg although slow, seems to be quite rigourous
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09:25 < Ozymandias42> with nix every "package" and every version of it is a unique entity. each dependency is always provided in the exact version required and linked to via soft or hardlinks. and each package lives not in the traditional hierarchy but under /nix/store/hash-package-version/{usr,etc,...}
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09:25 < IcePic> Ozymandias42: yeah, I know. 
09:25 < morpho> i didnt, sry
09:25 < Ozymandias42> I'll keep going then. just one more sentence of basic explanation
09:26 < Ozymandias42> an installed package differs from any other by being pointed to in PATH and/or symlinked to sth like /run/system/bin
09:26 < Ozymandias42> this way you can have any package in any version at the same time without them ever coming into conflict
09:26 < morpho> you can have multiple versions of software on obsd
09:26 < Ozymandias42> updates in the traditional sense also do not exist here as a change means a new hash and hence a new entry in /nix/store
09:27 < morpho> theres like 8 version of make
09:27 < morpho> gnu make*
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09:27 < Ozymandias42> but what if one version needs lib-A in version 3 and the other in version 4 ? but both have the same filepath and name?
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09:27 < morpho> there is a postfix
09:28 < morpho> so if developers stuck to the standard practice of keeping portability between major releases
09:29 < Ozymandias42> yes but isn't that the crux of the matter?
09:29 < morpho> this would not be needed, but on obsd package files get a postfix
09:29 < Ozymandias42> that's the same as with security. ideally you could rely on developers and maintainers
09:29 < morpho> foobar2.4.so.0
09:29 < Ozymandias42> but realistically this is an elegant solution to not have to
09:29 < IcePic> Ozymandias42: in some sense, nix (and similar setups) would allow people to be more bad at semantic versioning
09:29 < morpho> foobar2.4.so.1
09:29 < morpho> and so on
09:30 < Ozymandias42> but yeah, this also illustrates why I assumed this to be less itneresting on bsd
09:30 < tangentnet> Why does pkg_add not default to the highest priority with no flavors? For non-interactive installs, I always create categories such as STRAIGHT_PKG, VERSIONED_PKG, and UNFLAVORED_PKG in deployment scripts rather than a one-liner, and then use separate verification logic based on VARs.
09:30 < morpho> the last version numbers are openbsd specific
09:30 < morpho> if there is incompatability between minor releases
09:31 < tangentnet> In short, a one-liner becomes 100 lines of ksh script.
09:32 < Ozymandias42> there's also another advantage of using hash based "derivatives" as nix coins them. You can go back and forth in time with less hassle. Because a newer version can easily point to an older version of lib-A without issue
09:32 < Ozymandias42> on traditional package management this would mean a downgrade of that lib which might mean running into at least a query from the package manager
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09:33 < morpho> you can have more than one version of a library installed
09:34 < morpho> hell, most non C programming languages have their own dependecy management
09:34 < Ozymandias42> but that only works with proper semantic naming, right?
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09:37 < morpho> so on openbsd they observe their own semantic naming
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09:38 < morpho> because even if there is portability across major releases on linux, there might have been a change that was needed on bsd and so they have to maintain their own patches
09:38 < Ozymandias42> sounds work intensive
09:39 < morpho> obsd is interesting because where most other projects built a dependency management system on top of their previous tool, obsd rewrote their package manager from scratch to handle dependecies
09:39 < Ozymandias42> ..that sounds backwards. isn't dependency resolution THE core function of a package manager? I mean it IS just a dependency-tree-solver, right?
09:40 < morpho> slackware doesnt handle dependecies
09:40 < morpho> neither does aptitude
09:40 < Ozymandias42> it doesn't? but if the package meta info says I need X then it installs that
09:40 < morpho> apt-get does
09:40 < Ozymandias42> ah aptitude isn't apt ok
09:41 < Ozymandias42> I always thought that was jsut another frontend for apt
09:42 < morpho> i may have got the names confused, one is the orignal, this is early 2000s time
09:43 < morpho> ok, dpkg was the original tool, apt came later
09:45 < tangentnet> OpenSUSE's zypper is probably the best package manager in GNU/Linux land.
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09:45 < Ozymandias42> finally!! someone who shares my opinion on that
09:45 < morpho> tbh i think a lot of what "makes" a package management system is the dilligence of its maintainers
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09:45 < IcePic> morpho: yes, the data is more important than the tooling/logic I guess
09:45 < Ozymandias42> that too but a good package manager should have some basic features. Like the ability to search by package name and not fuzzy search over descriptions as well as only search
09:46 < Ozymandias42> dnf does that. and the fedora folks jsut told me to just pipe through grep... 
09:46 < Ozymandias42> or one thing I like about apt is the ability to have it remove config files or leftover config files too
09:47 < morpho> its quite easy to use obsd ports. i use game of trees to handle versioning which is nice because it seperates repository from working tree
09:47 < Ozymandias42> autoremoving no longer needed packages is apparently questionable functionality in general according to someone I was talking to about that recently because it's not very easy to determin what is not needed anymore as one might think
09:48 < morpho> pkg_delete can delete configs
09:48 < Ozymandias42> TIL. that's nice to know
09:48 < morpho> the files it created should be listed in the port, including any groups or users that were created
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09:50 < morpho> removing unused dependencies is a little hit and miss. again, you can check what packages you 'manually' installed with pkg_info -m
09:52 < morpho> and also list packages that were not manually installed through that
09:53 < IcePic> Ozymandias42: if you remove "unused" libs, the package system will not know if you personally compiled things against that lib
09:53 < IcePic> (if not using nix, that is)
09:54 < morpho> id be more interested in static compilation
09:55 < morpho> becoming more prevalent, easier to do, w/e
09:57 < morpho> its works for the security idioms too because its very easy to chroot the binary
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10:08 < Ozymandias42> agreed. also while static binaries are bigger than linked ones that turns around if you containerise them and provide those containers to others. Take for instance msot docker containers. they include a full minimal userland. but with go applications they could also just include jsut that.
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10:13 < morpho> it doesnt work for everything
10:14 < morpho> like qt
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10:37 < anthk_> py-cryptography doesn't work under i386, there's no build
10:38 < anthk_> thus, nomadnet/reticulum it's broken
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13:38 < leah2> are there plans to make signify use pqc?
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13:41 < sibiria> probably not. anything involving a final hash > 256 bits isn't compatible with today's package system
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13:42 < sibiria> a lot of stuff anchored to current 256-bit ec stuff
13:44 < sibiria> it's a very good reason to finally start moving packages from gzip to zstd
13:44 < sibiria> win-win
13:51 < seninha> Hi, mouse wheel scrolling stopped working on ungoogled-chromium after a recent pkg_add -u; but on the touchpad still works.  Have anyone experienced that?
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14:01 < npm> i've been compiling an extensive review of many of the bsd distributions available on the market for desktop use (bsd can be desktop, too!) openbsd sells itself on security; are there any security features I should talk about in the review that aren't usually talked about?
14:01 < npm> i already plan on looking into pf
14:03 < humm> openbsd doesn’t sell itself and openbsd isn’t on a market
14:03 < npm> you know what i meant no need to be semantic
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14:04 < humm> eh, the semantics are the whole point
14:04 < sibiria> he was being pedantic, not semantic. but that's just semantics
14:05  * sibiria explodes
14:05 < npm> humm: let me simplify: i'm doing a review on openbsd. what are some important security features I should mention to my readers
14:05 < npm> or rather try out
14:06 < humm> npm: there may be a point or two you could take from https://www.openbsd.org/innovations.html
14:06 < npm> that's probably what i'm looking for
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14:13 < zie> npm: simplicity? No BT stack, no super complicated FS's, etc.
14:13 < IcePic> zie: too late
14:14 < anthk_> when will 7.9 be released?
14:14 < IcePic> in a few weeks, give or take
14:14 < zie> IcePic: dang it! and I wanted my 15m of fame! :P
14:15 < IcePic> zie: you'll get the next slot, I'm sure
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14:20 < anthk_> no plus.html for a while...
14:20 < anthk_> ah, now it has
14:20 < IcePic> yeah, just today =)
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14:22 < IcePic> I managed plus.html for a while, and it is kind of hard to continuously find time to keep it updated.
14:22 < anthk_> btw
14:23 < anthk_> nomadnet doesn't work on 32 bit
14:23 < anthk_> the pkg/port I mean
14:23 < anthk_> it needs py-cryptography and there is none in openbsd >= 7.7?
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14:25 < IcePic> py-crypto depends on rust these days, and I guess rust doesn't work on 32bit obsd
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14:27 < anthk_> no way to use a fallback rustless option?
14:28 < pukkamustard> there is, you can use the `rnspure` package on pip
14:28 < pukkamustard> see here: https://markqvist.github.io/Reticulum/manual/gettingstartedfast.html#pure-python-reticulum
14:29 < anthk_> mmm thankks
14:29 < anthk_> I wisht the go-reticulum port got more support
14:30 < anthk_> and a nomadnet-go plus dependencies were born
14:30 < anthk_> golang it's ideal for this
14:30 < anthk_> it would be more portable than rust, and not as insecure as c++ 
14:30 < anthk_> obsd already has yggdrasil-go and maybe nncp?
14:30 < anthk_> ah, no, but it's a go build away
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16:14 < tangentnet> IMO, Python packages are a problem. I am glad I don't write or use Python programs. One package imports Python, but I don't have any py-\* stuiff.
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16:35 < Foxy_> anthk_: py-cryptography package is built using maturin and needs Rust for compilation => not supported on i386/32 bit architecture
16:35 < Foxy_> RUST_ARCHS=aarch64 amd64 riscv64 sparc64
16:37 < thrig> CPAN modules could also be prone to supply chain attacks
16:45 < tangentnet> You can pledge/unveil whatever perl modules you use in your project. Python is a dynamic hell.
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16:54 < thrig> whatever being complicated by modules that only load things on the first HTTP request
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17:03 < tangentnet> At the moment, I believe there are at least 10+ versions (major and minor) of Python, their subsystems are almost unique, and backward compatibility is unreliable; therefore, spending time creating *python* isn't ideal, but rather a hassle.
17:04 < tangentnet> major/minor includes 2/3X. If a language can't handle backward compatibility then it is garbage.
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17:35  * tangentnet *hits the sack* with a huge mass, literally making a dent in it.
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17:42 < thrig> net.inet.tcp.sack=0
17:43 < eea> lolz, thrig with the hard facts
17:44 < eea> <3
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18:16 < f451> good on OpenBSD getting a syspatch out for xserver within minutes of the problem being announced
18:16 < f451> :D
18:16 < f451> patched already
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18:22 < thrig> it is patch Tuesday
18:22 < f451> it is indeed
18:23 < f451> right, gonna reboot
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19:02 < rIMpossib1e> Hello. Is anyone here experienced with the installation and initialization of OCAML under OpenBSD?
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19:20 < cgnarne> pkg_add ocaml should do the trick, no?
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19:22 < rIMpossib1e> cgnarne: it is more the init part after opam init. it says it has no switch
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19:22 < rIMpossib1e> I followed instructions on ocaml.org and respected the pkg install system of OpenBSD
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19:41 < qbit> `which opam`? :D
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19:42 < qbit> opam switch shows 4.05.0 for me
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19:48 < qbit> pkg_add ocaml opam; opam init; opam switch
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19:58 < rIMpossib1e> qbit: opam switch create ocaml-base-compiler did the trick
19:59 < qbit> swoot
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20:01 < rIMpossib1e> qbit: for me it will be 5.2.1 then :p
20:01 < qbit> it should still show the system ocaml in the list
20:03 < rIMpossib1e> qbit: I dunno what went eventually wrong, but I get also dune 3.22.2, yours?
20:03 < rIMpossib1e> I guess 3.8.3?
20:05 < qbit> stuff is building atm.. it's removing dune 3.16.0... so.. not sure
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20:05 < qbit> 185/422
20:05 < qbit> gooo little x230 GO
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20:07 < rIMpossib1e> hehehe Toshiba Z930-12C harharhar
20:07 < rIMpossib1e> 150/221 building dune
20:08 < rIMpossib1e> 204/221
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20:10 < rIMpossib1e> qbit: I guess I'll make the race with my 2012 Toshiba
20:13 < rIMpossib1e> done.
20:16 < qbit> plot twist: golf rules!
20:16 < qbit> 229/422
20:17 < rIMpossib1e> qbit: for what are you using OCAML?
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20:20 < thrig> cpu stree test
20:20 < thrig> stress
20:21 < qbit> heh, basically
20:21 < qbit> rIMpossib1e: mostly just playing with it for fun
20:22 < qbit> you?
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20:22 < rIMpossib1e> qbit: I am a starter, I want to use it for home automation
20:23 < rIMpossib1e> I have programming experience in other languages and OCAML syntax looks not difficult. I will try to get it run on ESP32-C6
20:24 < qbit> fun :)
20:24 < rIMpossib1e> yes!
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20:27 < rIMpossible> __bedtime mode__ see ya
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--- Log closed Wed Apr 15 00:00:03 2026