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00:25 < vortexx> I've never tried CAD software either, but never neglect that authors of CAD software may want to emulate familiar key combos from earlier (sometimes much earlier) software. Just as for many other types of software
00:26 < vortexx> CAD as an early software that had huge needs drove hardware dev hugely in the 70s
00:26 < vortexx> notably GFX
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00:45 < vortexx> Bezier curves (4th level equations) were notably invented in the 70s to use curves in CAD
00:46 < vortexx> (Bezier was a Renault engineer iirc)
00:46 < thrig> CAD was still a problem in subsequent decades
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02:18 < oldlaptop> solvespace is IME/IMO closer to "commercial" solid-model CAD systems in terms of interface than the other open-source options, arguably even freecad
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02:18 < oldlaptop> it's definitely "20%/80% Rule: The CAD Program"
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04:27 < cgnarne> morpho: you have to be very careful with pledge and unveil in "scripting languages", shit can break in surprising ways.
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08:25 < johnzlly> hello!
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08:27 < johnzlly> Does anyone have "WARNING: Kernel has no file descriptor comparison support: No such file or directory" in your /var/log/xenodm.log?
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10:10 < renaud> ipv8 makes sense but comes way too late
10:12 < renaud> well, the geenral idea makes sense, the full stuff does not
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11:24 < joepublic> As a complete newcomer to OpenBSD I discovered that there is a big difference between `shutdown -r now` and `shutdown now -r`
11:25 < sibiria> wouldn't it be great if we could just put arguments in any order we wanted, and the computer could read our mind all the same?
11:25 < joepublic> I am sure there's a place for that, but I am happy to learn the correct order
11:26 < sibiria> -r takes an argument
11:26 < sibiria> or rather, shutdown wants the time last
11:26 < sibiria> it's all in the man page, which one can access with:  shutdown man
11:27 < joepublic> as is well documented in the man page, i found
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11:28 < joepublic> though I must admit I used `man shutdown` and not `shutdown man`
11:28 < sibiria> i may have gotten the order of the arguments wrong
11:29 < joepublic> I know the feeling.
11:30 < sibiria> it could've been worse, look at plan9
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11:41 < IcePic> In Soviet Russia, plan9 looks at you!
11:47 < renaud> does 'shutdown now -r' work on another OS?
11:49 < joepublic> works in debian, though it's wrong there as well.
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11:49 < renaud> and did you know that there is a difference between 'reboot' and 'shutdown -r now'?
11:50 < joepublic> yes, shutdown -r now performs a proper shutdown and calls reboot at the appropriate time.
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11:52 < renaud> that's already more than most linux people know :)
11:52 -!- tozhu [~tozhu@223.87.244.17] has quit [Quit: tozhu]
11:52 < renaud> but on linux it is about the same
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11:57 < sibiria> my memory of plan9's powerdown process might be outdate, but i recall it has having to shut down the file system, manually verify over and over until it was really off, and *then* you could power the computer off
11:58 < sibiria> a bit like windows 95's "wait... wait... NOW it's safe to turn your PC off", except manual
11:58 < pardis> well, you're meant to use plan 9 with a centralised file server, so almost all plan 9 computers don't even have a local filesystem
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12:19 < IcePic> sibiria: like windows 95 which waited for 1s by doing busy loops, then just killing power, so when cpus got 1+GHz, it would leave the fs unsynced because the busy loop was so much faster
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12:22 < oldlaptop> good thing that didn't happen until... [checks notes] four or five years later? obviously nobody would still be running the same expensive commercial operating system by then
12:24 < oldlaptop> (I guess in fairness that machine with the early PIII/Athlon probably has USB and a disk bigger than 4GiB, so there's more incentive than usual to find something better than release-day win95)
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12:58 < cgnarne> sibiria: fshalt -r on a system with a file server. scram on a terminal
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12:59 < Weebey> hi frens. I'm not sure if this is the best place, but I was wondering if DKIM signing with OpenSMTPD is feasible. 
13:00 < Weebey> From what I saw, it's not a built-in mechanism but needs a few filters/workarounds ?
13:00 < cgnarne> sibiria: correction. fshalt and scram to halt. fshalt -r or reboot to reboot
13:00 < sibiria> Weebey: there's an "official" opensmtpd module for that, yes
13:01 -!- kc3zyt [~kc3zyt@user/kc3zyt] has joined #openbsd
13:01 < renaud> opensmtpd-filter-dkimsign
13:03 < sibiria> the hopefully-soon-to-be-official dkim-verify module unfortunately no longer works. maybe it'll get fixed for 7.9
13:04 < Weebey> hmm. I did see opensmtpd-filter-dkimsign mentioned in some posts. 
13:04 < Weebey> In your (plural) experience, this is a feasible thing to tackle? Im hoping to solve a DMARC gap caused by an relay server.
13:05 < sibiria> the module/filter is right there. you just install it, and you add it to your outbound chain. that's all there's to it
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13:05 < sibiria> smack in the middle of feasible territory
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13:14 < Weebey> sibiria: That's perfect.
13:14 < Weebey> I think I'll test this soon. 
13:15 < Weebey> I was looking for some input like this since, I need to decide whether or not to invest time in this route.
13:15 < Weebey> Thanks so much. :)
13:16 < sibiria> it's basically just a single line extra in smtpd. absolutely worth the time
13:17 < sibiria> full set of green checkmarks, so to speak
13:19 < Weebey> Yea, looking for green.
13:19 < Weebey> :D
13:21 < renaud> ah, yes opensmtpd-filter-dkimsign is broken on arm64 because there is no stable arm64 channel, just so you are aware
13:22 < renaud> s/channel/channel for ports/
13:22 < sibiria> can build it yourself, though
13:22 < renaud> not from imperial.at source though
13:22 < sibiria> doesn't martijn@ keep his own repo up to date?
13:23 < renaud> it seems someone else made a patch, but I checked yesterday andd martijn@ repo still had the pledge tmppath
13:24 < renaud> now TBH, 7.9 is not far away, a snap should work
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13:25 < sibiria> can get the patch from the official repo, too
13:26 < sibiria> (it's commited to ports)
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13:28 < sibiria> unfortunately more stuff is broken with dkim*verify*. some protocol hiccups or so
13:29 < sibiria> or maybe it does relate to the changes for tmppath pledge after all. i merely applied the same changes without looking too closely at them, but as-is they don't fix that filter
13:31 < renaud> Apr 16 14:52:03 arwen smtpd[85760]: dkimsign: pledge: Invalid argument
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13:51 < renaud> any idea how much behind github is compared to cvs?
13:51 < leah> i'm wondering if openbsd mail daemon is just a bit slow
13:51 < leah> trying to subscribe to ports@openbsd.org and not seeing any reply back from the server yet!
13:52 < renaud> ah, there are sometimes lags there
13:52 < leah> in the message title, you send: subscribe name-of-list
13:52 < leah> i wasn't sure if name-of-list, for majordomo, was either: ports, or openbsd-ports
13:52 < leah> so i did both
13:53 < renaud> it it the first time you send a mail to @openbsd.org?
13:53 < leah> yeah, i want to submit my librewolf port for review
13:53 < renaud> do you send from your own server?
13:53 < leah> not first time. i've sent to tech@ before, and i'm on that list
13:53 < leah> yes, my own self-hosted server
13:53 < leah> with correct spf, ptr and dkim records
13:53 < renaud> there is greylisting in front, if you didn't send for a while it may take time to pass
13:53 < leah> makes sense
13:54 < leah> i would expect no less. ok, i'll just wait.
13:54 < renaud> you can check your server logs, they will confirm
13:54 < sibiria> renaud: at least in the past, they synced the github repo once every 24 hours
13:54 < leah> check my... server logs. yes. my mail server is like a bitch in heat who hasn't eaten yet, surrounded byy rabbits
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13:54 < leah> don't mess with it
13:55 < sibiria> it's just majordomo being slow, not opensmtpd being slow
13:55 < leah> err, postfix. yeah. that's long on my todo to replace.
13:55 < sibiria> retired major. at least 70 yrs old
13:55 < renaud> majordomo is not slow in general, but it happens
13:55 < leah> well i'm on tech@. i'll just send the port there so they have it.
13:55 < renaud> in general, the main culprit is greylisting
13:55 < leah> can always re-send to ports later
13:56 < renaud> no
13:56 < renaud> send it to ports@
13:56 < leah> ok :)
13:56 < renaud> besides it's nearby release, so it's not urgent
13:56 < leah> yeah
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13:57 < leah> https://codeberg.org/vimuser/librewolf-openbsd-port/src/branch/submit1
13:57 < leah> this is what i want to send. i have a tarball of this.
13:57 < leah> i ported librewolf to openbsd.
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13:57 < leah> i copied www/mozilla-firefox then made extremely surgical changes to it. the code is similar enough to firefox and my port logic similar enough, that hopefully maybe they might merge it before 7.9 proper. but we'll see.
13:58 < leah> this post shows screenshots of it: https://mas.to/@libreleah/116414547563747898
13:58 < renaud> TBH, don't count too much on a 7.9 port
13:58 < leah> also this person built my port too, and showed a screenshot: https://hachyderm.io/@fcbsd/116419353340011633
13:58 < leah> i run -current anyway
13:58 < leah> so like
13:58 < leah> yeah, even if it doesn't land in release, it'll land at some point in -current, and go in 8.0, no big deal
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13:59 < npm> do they make devices that I can plug into my openbsd firewall that can let it be a wireless router
13:59 < leah> imo you should be running -current on a workstation anyway
13:59 < npm> it's a firewall right now and i'd like for that filtered traffic to be broadcasted as a separate wifi network
14:00 < leah> i may backport to 7.8 too, and host my own repo
14:00 < leah> i got an earlier port for 7.8, but it's crap (my version for -current is more complete)
14:02 < sibiria> npm: i recommend that you get a basic "wifi range extender" that can run OpenWRT, and configure openwrt to be just a wifi-to-ethernet bridge
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14:02 < sibiria> which will do exactly that: let you route users on the wifi
14:03 < sibiria> running a wifi access point on openbsd itself is an idea best forgotten, unfortunately. very poor support
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14:04 < leah> openwrt is dope
14:04 < npm> :(
14:04 < leah> why couldn't obsd be a wireless ap though?
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14:04 < leah> surely as long as you have the drivers it should be possible
14:05 < thrig> the wifi code isn't the bestest
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14:05 < sibiria> there's like one single wifi driver that does a good job in hostap mode, and it's stuck at 802.11g. additionally we have just wpa2 still
14:05 < leah> i've got a thinkpad x280 i install obsd on last night, wifi works but yeah, i haven't tested how fast it is
14:07 < leah> but yeah i do the same
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14:07 < leah> i host a bunch of linux-based tunnel routers (wireguard) and if i need wireless, i just plug an owrt rcouter into it
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14:08 < leah> my owrt routers can't... do 1gbps wireguard both ways simultaneously. but they do wireless. and i have a big fat machine for the tunnel connection.
14:09 < leah> you gotta be careful with obsd on a router, the default limits are pretty conservative. e.g. number of connections, and a bunch of stuff. you have to tweak it. for home networks the default is probably ok tho
14:13 < sibiria> number of connections?
14:14 < leah> sysctl limits
14:14 < sibiria> i recall having tens of thousands of established states at some point in the past, without any tuning besides reducing tcp timers
14:15 < leah> probably not necessary for most people but aren't the default file descriptor limits pretty austere? as i understand it, you might want to at least increase that, on a very busy network (sockets are files)
14:16 < leah> idk, i've never actually run a production router on openbsd (i have tested openbsd as a router though). i assume i'd want to tweak a few things.
14:17 < sibiria> iirc 512 or 1024 for the default class
14:17 < leah> 512
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14:17 < sibiria> preferrably run services in another login class
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14:17 < sibiria> but login.conf is still pretty conservative in its defaults, yeah
14:17 < sibiria> memory limits in particular
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14:18 < leah> might want to check buffer size limits / number of buffers (for packets), also i think sysctl has a few knobs for pf
14:19 < leah> for a small family network, the system defaults are likely fine
14:19 < leah> or small office or something
14:19 < sibiria> as far as what the kernel (and in extension pf) can do, the defaults go a very long way (re: keeping track of tens of thousands of states just fine)
14:20 < leah> on my personal workstations i just remove those memory limits entirely. i regularly write/run stuff that's pretty heavy on resources
14:20 < sibiria> may need some hand-holding running this or that daemon
14:21 < leah> linux is best on a router anyway. better performance. i know that's probably an unpopular opinion here. but i use the best tool for the job.
14:21 < leah> if i'm running a laptop and want to be reasonably safe when using the internet, openbsd is king
14:21 < leah> but i'll probably keep my routers on linux
14:21 < leah> i *would* like to replace my ageing mail server though. currently debian and postfix. obsd and opensmtpd are pretty nice.
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14:22 < leah> *after* majordomo responds to my subscribe request
14:22 < sibiria> my low-power Atom openbsd router can route/nat 2.5 gbps just fine. high-enough ceiling for me - so far
14:22 < sibiria> Celeron*
14:22 < leah> i do a lot of freaky things on my network.
14:23 < leah> all quite legal, but i wouldn't run openbsd on that
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14:29 < renaud> my router uses an Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E5645
14:30 < joepublic> pretty beefy router :)
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14:31 < renaud> it's also my main server ;)
14:31 < renaud> so there is no NAT for it
14:32 < sibiria> mine is multi-functional too. runs a few VMs, networked storage, web server, database server for test/work etc.
14:32 < joepublic> my "main" server's behind a nat with ports 80 and 443 forwarded, everything else is internal to my network
14:32 < sibiria> in a tiny quad-core 15W envelope - and it all still runs very well
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14:46 < leah> openbsd is nice on a workstation, especially if using the world wide of web, because of all the kernel level mitigations, e.g. w^x and pledge/unveil
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14:47 < leah> i want to know that a wily webmaster with a specially crafted .png file can't take over my computer
14:47 < thrig> lot of CVE in a lot of image processing libraries
14:47 < leah> majordomo replied
14:48 < leah> Ignoring part of type application/pgp-keys.
14:48 < leah> Ignoring part of type application/pgp-signature.
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14:48 < leah> guess i should re-send unsigned huh
14:49 < leah> yes did that (no signing). now it works reliably.
14:49 < leah> sehr schell
14:50 < leah> bitchin'
14:50 < leah> now i can send my port
14:51 < leah> now to disable html in my mail client, for good measure. i know openbsd is a bit old fashioned.
14:52 < leah> when's the release coming out? i don't care personally (i use -current exclusively) but wondering how much time... if it's like 2 weeks, maybe they might merge my port for 7.9. it's 100% perfect in every way and pretty much identical to the firefox port that's already merged.
14:53 < leah> all i did was change the tarball to librewolf and rename some shit, update plists, add like 1 patch, and add some logic to replace mozconfig (firefox doesn't use it) with the openbsd options. it's a perfect mirror of the ff port, just with librewolf's patching.
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14:54 < sibiria> ~2 weeks
14:54 < leah> my understanding is usually around may 1st and november 1st
14:54 < leah> but i observe that in practise, it's usually like, april 20-30th and october 20th-30th
14:54 < leah> yeah ok. i'm like, 2% sure they merge this for 7.9, but we'll see won't we :)
14:55 < leah> i'm gonna go get my macbook from my work later. it's at work at the moment. m1 mac. for aarch64 testing.
14:55 < leah> currently running asahi linux fedora, but i'll stick puffy on it instead
14:56 < leah> someone joked earlier that i should also port GNU IceCat
14:56 < leah> i probably won't, but i've half a mind to, for the lulz
14:57 < leah> they actually make some pretty nice changes, but it's constantly out of date (currently based on ff 140)
14:57 < leah> librewolf is always up to date on the latest upstream code
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14:59 < leah> it's amazing that mozilla software runs at all on obsd. i've been auditing their code, and their entire infrastructure, as part of my porting. cuz like, you need to understand what you're touching. and that code is just awful.
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14:59 < sibiria> i'd give asahi a try if it worked on the m3. with a bit of luck it will soon enough
14:59 < leah> their = mozilla.
14:59 < morpho> rust is tier 3 support on obsd
14:59 < leah> oh don't get me started on rust
15:00 < leah> why does *one* build thread use 8GB of RAM? fuck knows
15:01 < morpho> well its to make computing less accessible
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15:01 < morpho> is it open source if the codebase is unreadable?
15:01 < oldlaptop> Yes.
15:01 < leah> when i write code, i am the computer. i'm being the computer, in my head. i can't do that in rust, or c++, or whatever else
15:01 < leah> i can in C
15:03 < oldlaptop> Incidentally, I would not expect a simple new port to be committed right now, let alone a browser. (see https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-ports&m=177549393926924&w=2)
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15:03 < leah> yeah i figured as much
15:04 < leah> but it'll go in -current and people can use that
15:04 < leah> if they don't merge my port for 7.9, i'll maintain my own repo
15:04 < leah> until 8.0
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15:10 < morpho> some packages appear in ports that are not found in the binary packages
15:11 < leah> most people should be running -current imo. unless there's a reason to use stable. e.g. server. or like, at work
15:12 < leah> obsd-current is more stable than any stable linux distro i've ever used
15:13 < leah> yes i think the variable is PERMIT_PACKAGE
15:13 < leah> if not set to Yes, it won't go in packages
15:13 < leah> so you can grep for ports that either don't have that variable, or that don't set it to Yes
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15:14 < leah> if a given port doesn't have friendly licensing for example, you can't distribute a binary
15:14 < leah> obsd-current is pretty amazing
15:15 < morpho> yep :)
15:15 < leah> it's like running archlinux, but it's way more stable. and you have ports. i simultaneously feel like i'm running arch linux , and gentoo linux
15:16 < leah> but with a much more conservative administration method for everything. openbsd's branchless development model has its advantages for sure
15:16 < leah> idk why they bother with releases
15:16 < leah> if it were me i'd just make obsd rolling release. if i were in charge.
15:17 < morpho> current/snapshots can be run as-if it was rolling
15:17 < leah> yes. that's what i do.
15:17 < leah> sysupgrade -s and pkg_add -Dsnap
15:17 < morpho> the libc ABI/API changes every release
15:17 < cgnarne> because current can and will break at some point
15:18 < leah> oh, yeah, i forgot about that
15:18 < leah> yes openbsd doesn't have abi stability unlike linux
15:18 < leah> on linux you can run a binary you compiled 20 years ago and it'll probably be fine, libraries permitting
15:19 < morpho> yeah, not here
15:19 < leah> but that's a good thing
15:19 < leah> because linux has to intentionally maintain lots of old legacy and broken crap, to make that work
15:19 < morpho> yep
15:19 < leah> but the linux model is a good thing too
15:19 < leah> they're both good
15:19 < leah> i want both to exist
15:19 < leah> a world with both is better
15:20 < morpho> the willingness to cut off legacy crap is nice
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15:20 < leah> like. i  run some software in my business, that *must* work
15:20 < leah> on linux
15:20 < leah> like, let's say you're a governmentt, and you want to distribute some tax software
15:20 < cgnarne> don't get me wrong. i run current on all my machines. but if it breaks i get to keep the pieces.
15:20 < leah> the british government distributes software for linux to do payroll. i use it in my company.
15:21 < leah> their software would never be stable on openbsd. unless they open sourced it and put it in ports.
15:21 < leah> and then it'd be recompiled
15:21 < leah> it's an appimage
15:21 < leah> appimage conceptually would break on openbsd, due to lack of abi stability
15:21 < ssm_> <the linux model is a good thing too> no
15:21 < morpho> thank god there is no appimage
15:21 < leah> i meant: the linux model is good, but not at the exclusion of all others
15:22 < leah> it's good that we have choices, is all i'm saying
15:22 < thrig> shove everything into a container and pray there aren't any security leaks or whatnot
15:22 < leah> windows is even better in that regard. you can run pretty much anything since 1995 on the latest version.
15:22 < leah> not that i care much for windows, but i provide this example anyway
15:22 < leah> besides
15:23 < leah> i don't need backwards compatibility in openbsd
15:23 < ssm_> <the linux model is good, but not at the exclusion of all others> no
15:23 < leah> i was thinking about wine the other day, and ways it could possibly be adapted to work in openbsd
15:23 < leah> e.g. doing running 32-bit userspace under vmm or something
15:23 < ssm_> linux model being dominant excludes the others implicitly
15:23 < leah> but the reason i want wine is so i can play old computer games, right?
15:23 < leah> that's like, most wine users
15:23 < morpho> id be more interested in seeing more openbsd natives tools than porting crap
15:23 < leah> well, that's why wasm is awesome
15:23 < leah> see: https://dos.zone/
15:24 -!- jab [~user@72.12.220.130] has joined #openbsd
15:24 < thrig> or you could get a commodore 64 and play or write games for that
15:24 < leah> i... played quake3 on that the other day, and for some reason coulrdn't stop laughing. it's comical that it even worked.
15:24 < leah> https://dos.zone/q3/ <-- u can play it in the browser
15:26 < morpho> the mednafen emulator works well on openbsd
15:27 < morpho> the dev actually tests it on openbsd
15:27 < cgnarne> morpho: wdym by native tools? obsd is a "Unix" like the others
15:28 < morpho> stuff like mg, cwm, tmux.
15:29 < morpho> There are also bsd libs people can write to instead of the linux ones, like kqeues and rthreads
15:30 -!- empee [~empee@mail.xmpe.de] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 4.7.1]
15:33 < morpho> an interesting example brought up the other day is how linux mmaps it DBs which is not correct. due to a lack of unified cache on openbsd this naughtyness is impossible.
15:33 -!- fflam [~mdt@2600:4040:1103:a500::1c19] has joined #openbsd
15:35 < uwharrie> another related example is trying to use MAP_PRIVATE as a security mechanism
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15:41 < leah> https://dos.zone/mp/?join=room.q3.btv.3591730322&lobby=q3
15:41 < leah> someone come play with me (quake3 deathmatch)
15:42 < leah> medanfen works likely because no dynamic recompiler
15:42 < leah> iirc
15:43 < leah> some emulators use dynamic recompilers that dont play nice with w^x
15:43 < morpho> ahh, that is very interesting
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15:44 < leah> i wonder how well dos.zone works in obsd actually. wasm seems like it can ruin your day worse than my currently 48 railgun bullets. im camping,w aiting for a player to join the matc
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15:45 < surrounder> leah: that is actually impressive
15:46 -!- sjg [~sjg@user/sjg] has joined #openbsd
15:47 < hmjsp> sup ppl, how is wireless AP support on openbsd? i want to build a router for home (500mbps) with openbsd because of simplicity+security+pf, which seems simple enough for wired but not sure how wireless support/performance is? and if there are any routers that are directly supported by openbsd just like how you can flash openwrt on some
15:47 < leah> what, that i have 68 railgun bullets?
15:47 < uwharrie> support is bad
15:48 < hmjsp> nooo </3
15:49 < uwharrie> there are only a few device+driver combos that support hostapd mode, they generally don't support newer standards, and handling of mobile devices is problematic
15:50 < uwharrie> that said if you're OK with 802.11g between stationary devices that aren't going to try to do any powersaving, it can be made to work
15:50 < hmjsp> any "dumb ap" recommendations then? ig the router can be openbsd while i connect an openwrt ap for wireless... routers ARE the most important point in security at home which is why id much MUCH rather have openbsd, but it is ALSO hard to justify having two devices in terms of cost and power consumption...
15:51 < morpho> try it
15:51 < hmjsp> "newer standards" like wifi 6? i'm only really expecting 200mbps wireless consistently, if that matters
15:51  * oldlaptop runs OpenBSD as a home AP, and does not recommend it
15:51 < oldlaptop> you're an order of magnitude too optimistic with that speed number, at least
15:51 < uwharrie> I'm using MikroTik/RouterOS devices for that. They're pretty cheap and straightforward to get into dumb/relay only mode
15:51 -!- xet7 [~xet7@user/xet7] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:51 < hmjsp> oldlaptop: oof, that's crazy
15:52 < leah> meh. joining another server.
15:52 < hmjsp> i mean im getting 20mbps rn from a very crappy router so it's livable... but im looking to UPGRADE xD
15:52 < leah> but yeah u can play all the games in the browser
15:52 < hmjsp> uwharrie: any recommendations?
15:52 < leah> and that is why wine does not need to be ported to openbsd
15:53 < joepublic> One reason among many, I would think
15:53 < sibiria> hmjsp: get a cheap wifi "wall-wart" device that can run openwrt. much better experience
15:53 < uwharrie> currently running this https://mikrotik.com/product/RB952Ui-5ac2nD but it's getting old, so looking to upgrade
15:53 < hmjsp> sibiria: wdym "wall-wart"?
15:54 < hmjsp> uwharrie: doesn't having no antennas mean the signal is weak?
15:54 < sibiria> hmjsp: tiny device that plugs directly into the wall socket, rather than some large tabletop thing
15:54 < hmjsp> what kinda speeds do u get?
15:54 < sibiria> i use the dlink dap-1620
15:55 < uwharrie> hmjsp: I just put one on each floor of my place and don't have issues. streaming video works so never bothered with a speed test
15:55 < sibiria> with 802.11ac 40mhz channel and wpa3, it gives me about 300 mbit/sec. if i switch to 80mhz channel it probably goes up 500-600 mbit/s
15:58 < uwharrie> I did the OpenWRT thing for a while but they dropped support for the devices I had and the newer APs I got to replace them had finnicky installs that I couldn't get stable, so I switched to RouterOS
16:02 < hmjsp> uwharrie: i see. how do they compare? openwrt and routeros, both linux so should be similar?
16:02 < hmjsp> only really need to run unbound and whatever firewall, im only familiar with openbsd pf atm but should be no big deal to learn linux stuff
16:03 < sibiria> routeros is more along the lines of pfsense/opnsense
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16:03 < uwharrie> routeros has its own proprietary userland so *unix stuff you know doesn't translate
16:03 < sibiria> openwrt's front-facing parts are pretty slim and simplified
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16:04 < hmjsp> uwharrie: oh what? that's ugly
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16:04 < sibiria> it's a pretty elaborate product
16:04 < hmjsp> can i not just ignore its userland and just install whatever?
16:05 < hmjsp> cause like i said, just dns and firewall is what i need, all that matters is that the hardware provides good wireless
16:05 < uwharrie> if you want that, you'd be better off finding a well supported openwrt flashable device
16:05 < sibiria> if you have basic needs, get something that runs openwrt
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16:05 < sibiria> you'll be up and running very quick with it, and if you need anything advanced down the road you can still get in under the hood, so to speak
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16:06 < uwharrie> I wasn't a fan of running services on my APs and stuck to dumb AP mode, but sure, it's possible
16:07 < sibiria> i run mine strictly as a wifi-to-ethernet bridge. no services at all running besides the web config panel
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16:08 < sibiria> it basically functions as antenna extension of my little switch
16:08 < uwharrie> same. prefer openbsd for dhcp, rad, pf, dns, etc
16:08 < hmjsp> uwharrie: i mean it's not even "services", just dns to block ads and malware
16:10 < hmjsp> honestly what im thinking about mainly is power consumption; where i am, every 5W increase is £1 extra per month (if on 24/7), so it's hard to justify a router and an ap both taking at least 10W each most likely... although now that i think about it it's not REALLY that big of a cost increase... decisions decisions
16:11 < thrig> turn it off at night?
16:11 < sibiria> <thrig> stop breathing at night?
16:11 < sibiria> can u hear urself bro
16:11 < hmjsp> lmfao
16:11 < sibiria> hmjsp: it's one of the reasons why i like the small "wall-wart" type devices. they are typically built on very low-power MIPS stuff and have a peak draw of 3-4 watts, if even that
16:11 < cgnarne> maybe get some solar panels. but then again being british means you don't see the sun a lot anyways
16:11 < uwharrie> and skip running those big updates while electricity is the cheapest?
16:12 < hmjsp> sibiria: yeah but they also have sucky performance don't they? i want 200mbps consistently, for multiple devices
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16:12 < hmjsp> cgnarne: chronic vitamin D deficiency
16:13 < sibiria> i get 300 mbit/s on mine with narrow wifi channel. if i switch to wider channel it will roughly double
16:13 < hmjsp> interesting
16:14 < uwharrie> I cable up as much as possible. It's mainly our phones and the SO's tablet that use wireless and I'm generally not concerned as long as her streams aren't flaky
16:14 < hmjsp> the one you mentioned costs £56 while the hap ax lite costs £54... i think even with power cost in comparision the hap ax lite is infinitely better value
16:14 < sibiria> be sure to check if openwrt runs on it before any investments
16:14 < hmjsp> uwharrie: my flat sucks so it's not really possible to wire up except in one room
16:14 < sibiria> 56 gbp? i think i paid 30 for my dap-1620
16:14 < hmjsp> sibiria: it runs router os (mikrotek)
16:15 < sibiria> 30 eur, that is. so like 25 gbp
16:15 < sibiria> "before the war!"
16:15 < hmjsp> ah
16:15 < hmjsp> makes sense
16:15 < uwharrie> also note that the lite variants are 2.4GHz only
16:15 < leah> kjakq
16:16 < hmjsp> shouldn't matter much, 2.4GHz is better for wall penetration, and as long as im getting >=200mbps im happy
16:16 < leah> er
16:16 < leah> uh
16:16 < leah> yeah, that's enough quake3 today
16:16 < sibiria> 2.4 ghz will get you 150 mbit/s on 802.11n, and a lot more with 11ax which also does 2.4 ghz
16:16 < leah> you can also play sonic the hedgedog 2 on archive.org
16:16 < leah> MAME is provided as a wasm binary there, along with sonic 2
16:16 < uwharrie> that was fine when I was in a standalone place, but moving someplace more compact with shared walls/ceilings so thinking it'll probably need 5GHz as well
16:16 < leah> which can run mega drive games
16:17 < leah> i mean i remember browser-based emus in 2008, but they're much better these days
16:17 < leah> (they actually wokr, and don't run at 2fps)
16:18 < leah> (they run at 8fps instead)
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16:19 < leah> not providing 10gbps fttp in an apartment building is a sin imo
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16:20 < leah> and that's somewhat of a misnomer. britain actually gets plenty of sunlight, more specifically ultraviolet light, and it's also one of the windiest countries in the world, due to its location relative to to jet stream
16:20 < leah> and with reasonable humidity
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16:21 < sibiria> ok but does britain still eat jellied eels or not
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16:22 < leah> what we don't get is sensible industrial planning pertaining to the latter
16:22 < hmjsp> great, wifi disconnecting and being random... router change is imminent
16:22 < leah> wind is highly profitable. if you've got wind, you've got money. and electricity
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16:22 < leah> if you're sensible, which we are not
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16:23 < leah> pakistan is sensible. they are also very windy, and building lots of wind and solar everywhere
16:23 < thrig> probably a step up from the load shedding they used to do
16:23 < hmjsp> sibiria: never seen that at all
16:24 < leah> i've seen firsthand when pakistan started building its renewables. because i use to work for a pakistani company that specialised in... installing solar panels and wind turbines in pakistan (and also england)
16:25 < leah> i wrote their website and ttheir order system, for tracking customer orders. and they got a lot of business in pakistan. but not england, because we're not sensible, and the government cut funding to renewables at that time. so his english company shut down, and he just focused on pakistan
16:26 < morpho> you can get machines to run at a lower wattage
16:26 < leah> he had a super cool german guy with him in pakistan, running everything
16:27 < morpho> with the right tunings. freeBSD i managed to get a pc to go from 20w to 5w
16:27 < leah> germany is also not sensible. they killed their nuclear industry and... have not built enough solar and wind to replace it
16:27 < thrig> just buy gas from someone, no problemo
16:27 < sibiria> it's ok, they can keep buying from sweden and france
16:28 < leah> obsd runs hot by default
16:28 < leah> obsdfreqd makes it a bit nicer
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16:28 < leah> right, that's enough fragging people in quake3 and alluding to various national industrial policies. i'm gonna submit my librewolf port to ports@openbsd.org
16:29 < leah> but yeah now pakistan exports energy
16:29 < sibiria> goes nice into the export portfolio next to opium
16:29 < sibiria> clever choice
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16:34 < morpho> you dont need obsdfreqd
16:34 < morpho> sysctl hw.setperf=0
16:35 < hmjsp> https://openwrt.org/toh/mikrotik/hap_ac2
16:35 < sibiria> obsdfreqd adjusts your CPU clock dynamically
16:35 < hmjsp> seems openwrt actually supports mikrotik, so... happy ending for me?
16:35 < morpho> doesnt that happen with apm no? there are different speed profiles for AC, battery, low battery and so on
16:36 < sibiria> 24.10, openwrt is on 25.x now
16:36 < hmjsp> cause mikrotik seem best value for hardware, but i do NOT wanna be using some weird custom software, even regular linux is hardly tolerable compared to obsd but im willing to make that concession for simplicity and power consumption's sake
16:36 < cgnarne> hmjsp: OK. now that is cool
16:36 < hmjsp> sibiria: oop.... is that really bad?
16:36 < hmjsp> don't care about features, just security
16:36 < sibiria> i wouldn't say bad. but it's nice if the device is actively maintained
16:38 < morpho> its a bit ugly but you could do what fbsd did and run a linux container with drivers inside
16:38 < morpho> then you get bsd userspace with linux driver support
16:39 < hmjsp> sibiria: true... idk unless there's some critical kernel exploit being a version or two behind shouldnt be awful i guess
16:39 < hmjsp> morpho: that's HORRIBLE
16:40 < sibiria> morpho: you have some control of it again now, since 7.6 or 7.5. but the kernel's freq. scaler is poor compared to obsdfreqd's
16:42 < morpho> running the NIC in a vm also spoofs your ja4 fingerprint because the networking stack looks linuxy
16:43 < morpho> i dont think vmm has pci passthrough so might not be possible actually
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16:47 < cgnarne> it doesn't. compared to other virt systems vmd looks kinda spartan
16:49 < sibiria> it's in its infancy still, but satisfies a lot of use cases. been running a handful of VMs 24/7 with it for a few years now and my only real complaint is that it doesn't have full vCPU support with timeslicing
16:50 < cgnarne> i've been running my 9front server on vmd for the past 6 or so years. works well enough
16:51 < cgnarne> still a bit mad at the recent change to virtio 1.x
16:52 < cgnarne> virtio 1.x with pci i/o space instead of mem space? really?
16:56 < morpho> how is 9front on obsd? do you run a grid of them?
16:58 < cgnarne> i had to rewrite parts of the virtio drivers but it works fine
16:59 < cgnarne> i'm working on a vmmci driver right now. it's almost done
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17:00 < morpho> is that a personal patch or something that will be merged
17:00 < cgnarne> i run a small grid. fs/auth server on vmd, cpu on rpi3 and a bunch of terminals on cheap thinclients
17:01 < cgnarne> morpho: the virtio for vmd? already comitted
17:03 < morpho> awesome :)
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17:06 < morpho> id like to try it but dont know if the file serving would be fast enough as boring as that sounds
17:07 < cgnarne> last release has the changes. here's a little how to Install https://wiki.9front.org/openbsd-vmm
17:07 < cgnarne> there's a drawterm in ports that works with 9front
17:10 < morpho> is there any difference between plan9port and 9front? i was suprised 9front src contains Makefiles for unix
17:11 < cgnarne> 9front is an operating system. plan9port ports part of the userspace to Unix like operating systems
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17:16 < morpho> but its the same codebase?
17:16 < mischief> no.
17:16 < cgnarne> barely
17:17 < cgnarne> they both have a common ancestor i guess?
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17:17 < morpho> a lot of the 9front stuff compiles on openbsd with no patches ive found
17:18 < cgnarne> wut?
17:18 < cgnarne> i doubt that
17:19 < morpho> https://github.com/9front/9front/blob/front/sys/src/cmd/rc/Makefile
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17:22 < morpho> i wanted a statically compiled version of rc and used this and it works
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17:26 < cgnarne> right. forgot about that
17:26 < cgnarne> but plan9 9front is still a very different beast compared to openbsd
17:30 < cgnarne> give it a try on vmd. see what all the fuzz is about for yourself :)
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17:36 < leah> one thing perplexes me, and that is openbsd's auto partitioner in the installer. i'm setting it up on a 1TB SSD. and like, it gives me the usual partitions, varying 5-30GB or whatever. but i'm left with about 800GB or so of space left, yet it only auto-assigns 300GB to home, with about 600GB free at the start of the drive. why?
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17:36 < leah> i'm trying to make heads or tales of modifying the auto layout in the insttaller
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17:37 < leah> i just figured it out, nevermind. so asinine
17:38 < leah> do m, then i gave it * for size, to fill up the rest of the space
17:39 < leah> i usually just do basic obsd installs for customers. i understand a lot of the openbsd code, including kernel, because i've studied it for years out of intellectual curiosity
17:39 < leah> i've used it in odd projects here and there
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17:39 < leah> but i recently decided that i want to use it as my main system. hence my librewolf porting. i use librewolf. and i was infuriated that openbsd didn't have it. so i added it :)
17:39 < leah> it's the only browser i like
17:40 < leah> but yeah, when daily driving it (or test-driving as i am technically), but using it more aggressively, i appreciate even more about its idiosyncrasies
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17:40 < leah> once you get it, you just get it, and you realise how dirty every other system is
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17:43 < leah> i love how its only like 2GB for the base install + stuff i install (e.g. lxqt and various programs)
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17:43 < leah> base is smaller than 2GB. but i install extra stuff
17:45 < leah> i use a really nice lxqt setup
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17:49 < morpho> try cwm
17:49 < leah> that may actually be better, on the laptop i'm currently setting up on
17:49 < leah> it's a hp elitebook 2170p, and here's everything wrong with it:
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17:49 < leah> * trackpoint sucks / never works
17:49 < morpho> cwm + xterm + tmux :)
17:50 < leah> * no middle click button, can't scroll easily
17:50 < leah> * crap touchpad (no double tap)
17:50 < sibiria> HP: keyboard *will* go defunct by itself, as if by clockwork
17:50 < leah> cwm can be used in a tiling mode, right?
17:50 < leah> and in general is very keyboard friendly
17:50 < leah> all libreboot btw. i'm the libreboot creator. and i'm... currently putting openbsd on all my machines. cuz i've got several projects planned on each
17:51 < morpho> `bind-key 4-v window-vtile`
17:51 < morpho> or something like that
17:51 < leah> i've used lxde for years though. it's buried in my brain. and i know lxqt too.
17:51 < morpho> you helped me fix a thinkpad x60 way back in the day
17:52 < leah> oh really?
17:52 < sibiria> is openbsd + libreboot on T480 and T580 fully functional?
17:52 < leah> should be - not sure about ethernet
17:52 < leah> on some thinkpads, em0 will just, like, randomly fail for like no reason, on openbsd
17:52 < leah> probably fine on that model. i'm currently running on an x280 which has no ethernet anyway.
17:52 < morpho> its broken again ;)
17:52 < leah> haven't tested hdmi audio
17:53 < leah> sibiria: if i recall, ethernet did work when tested. and everything else worked
17:53 < morpho> i dont think hdmi audio is a thing on obsd
17:53 < leah> on some older thinkpads, i *think* specifically the sandybridge ones (x220/t420), ethernet kept failing on openbsd
17:53 < leah> intel ethernet adapter
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17:54 < sibiria> i suppose it sees the IGP correctly as well, so that basic GPU acceleration works? and opengl?
17:54 < leah> oh yeah
17:55 < leah> i mean, i can't actually think of anything that's broken
17:55 < leah> except probably hdmi audio
17:55 < leah> graphics work fine
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17:56 < mischief> i am a fan of spectrwm, which is pretty similar to cwm
17:56 < mischief> though my laptop with openbsd current runs awesome at the moment
17:56 < leah> i think it was just literally the x220/t420 that had issues
17:56 < leah> ethernet wouldn't work at all (wifi worked)
17:57 < leah> on some desktops (not laptops) sometimes i found that ahci broke (don't remember which one. it was specifically one desktop, out of like 30 models i deal with)
17:57 < leah> for the most part, you can expect full functionality. no different than vendor bios.
17:57 < cgnarne> i've changed from dwm to ratpoison lately
17:57 < leah> coreboot skips some init steps that the vendor bioses do
17:57 < leah> and openbsd doesn't hack around bugs as much as say, linux or freebsd will
17:58 < leah> linux/freebsd have a lot more hacks in them to work around all sorts of whacky firmware
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17:58 < leah> i could probably grab a thinkpad x220 and test ethernet again. it will be something pci related, pertaining to memory most likely
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17:59 < leah> openbsd is acctually in my experience the most user friendly on libreboot. the others require more poking.
17:59 < leah> e.g. freebsd will completely b0rk on some graphics setups, unless you configure it a certain way
17:59 < leah> openbsd just starts in text mode and then switches to its own implementation of kms
17:59 < leah> happy days
18:00 < leah> on freebsd you have to turn kms on
18:00 < leah> on intel graphics, we don't have functioning vga/efi on most machines. like, there's nothing in firmware doing anything, except bare init
18:00 < leah> and then your linux/bsd kernel is expected to do kms
18:00 < leah> but coreboot will set up the minimal things needed e.g. gtt, framebuffer
18:01 < leah> no efi on most lb machines - some x86 machines have u-boot working nicely (it does efi)
18:01 < leah> if u-boot works, use that, and run obsd in efi mode. it's really nice
18:04 < leah> we don't have proper efi though. u-boot doesn't do the full spec
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18:04 < leah> on desktops, modern graphics cards won't work anymore, because they need usually uefi gop, and pci rebar
18:04 < leah> these can be added (use edk2 payload), it's on TODO
18:05 < leah> i don't do heavy AI stuff locally nor play games made after the year 1999, so intel graphics suffices
18:06 < mischief> this all sounds like great stuff to put in a blog post
18:06 < leah> i want to make openbsd my main thing. librewolf is phase 1. i need that to read manuals/FAQs and... watch yt
18:06 < leah> lb doesn't build in obsd yet. that's on porting TODO (not for ports system tho)
18:07 < joepublic> +1
18:07 < leah> that was actually my weekend job a few weeks ago btw. port lb stuff. but... i've been studying mozilla instead.
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18:09 < leah> sorry, i got carried away. i was asked a question and wrote a book :)
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18:15 < leah> there's another advantage to always using -current: you can ignore cvs. i use the github mirror of openbsd repos e.g. ports. you can still export patches in cvs format easily. but you get faster checkout and can do branching and stuff
18:15 < leah> i hate cvs. but on -current i can ignore it entirely
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18:21 < sibiria> with a little bit of delay, ~24 hours or so, unless they sped it up
18:21 < sibiria> github sync was once a day last time i checked, at least
18:21 < leah> fine by me. is there a specific time of day when sync occurs?
18:22 < sibiria> i'm not sure
18:22 < leah> if there is, and if i should know it, i would be able to time my updates appropriately (update my system after that time, just after)
18:22 < leah> my guess is they have it in a crontab, which means probably midnight - relative to whatever timezone they use
18:23 < leah> i *could* hazard a guess and say UTC. or perhaps canadian mountain time - i will check. i can just monitor the repo regularly, and time my updates accordingly.
18:23 < leah> i am ideologically opposed to ever using cvs unless i have to (E.g. on stable releases)
18:24 < leah> the github mirror doesn't have branches, it only tracks the main branch
18:24 < xspider> AAA
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18:44 < mischief> is there not a way to convert the cvs tags into git branches
18:45 < uwharrie> there is, but it's messy and innacurate
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19:38 < oldlaptop> cvs does not convert very cleanly
19:38 < oldlaptop> it's impressive the github mirror works as well as it does
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19:40 < mischief> i pretty much only use my private mirror of the github mirror
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20:13 < humm> I just don’t mind using cvs
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21:14 < Bradipo> I have an ISO that is a bootable Windows ISO.  Obviously I cannot write it to a USB flashdrive with dd, but on Windows there is Rufus which will somehow convert the ISO into something that can be written to USB.
21:14 < Bradipo> Is there something equivalent to Rufus on OpenBSD (in ports)?
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21:16 < tvtoon> you don't need to do that for Windows installation
21:16 < Bradipo> I tried to dd the ISO to a USB drive and it failed to boot.
21:17 < Bradipo> It's a custom built ISO, not Windows proper.
21:17 < tvtoon> just make sure you follow any weird hierarchy and copy it, then load the EFI
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21:17 < Bradipo> So mount the ISO?
21:17 < Bradipo> Mount the ISO, copy the files somewhere and then make it boot something?
21:18 < tvtoon> yeah, mount, copy to some FAT32 and then boot
21:18 < Bradipo> I wonder how Ubuntu makes their bootable ISOs. lol.
21:19 < Bradipo> Ok, I'll use vnconfig to get the ISO mounted and see where that goes.
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21:25 < Bradipo> Hmm, ISO is UDF.
21:25 < fro> https://github.com/rainer042/geteltorito
21:25 < fro> could use something like that to convert to .img i reckon
21:26 < Bradipo> mount_udf(8) to the rescue...
21:26 < sibiria> ventoy is an option, too, if you trust it
21:27 < Bradipo> I don't trust it, sorry.
21:27 < Bradipo> It looks quite untrustable.
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21:28 < sibiria> i've never heard anything bad about the free edition
21:28 < Bradipo> So yeah, I can see a boot directory and a bootmgr.efi.
21:28 < sibiria> quite popular
21:28 < Bradipo> It's also a mess to bother with.  I looked at ventoy once and the documentation is deplorable.
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21:29 < sibiria> hm? you boot it once to let it expand its storage partition to cover all the remaining space, and then you simply drop ISOs in there. that's it
21:29 < Bradipo> fro: Seems that geteltorito has a "bash" version, lol.
21:30 < sibiria> not much documentation to read concerning moving cursor up/down and hitting enter to select which ISO to boot
21:30 < Bradipo> Maybe I was thinking of ventoy PXE stuff.
21:30 < sibiria> that might be a bit more complex, yeah
21:31 < Bradipo> So is this seriously all that's needed?
21:31 < Bradipo> https://github.com/rainer042/geteltorito/blob/main/geteltorito.bash
21:31 < Bradipo> Guess I can try.
21:31 < fro> i mean
21:31 < fro> i've used it once years ago
21:32 < fro> but that doesn't mean it's gonna work
21:32 < fro> still worth a shot
21:33 < Bradipo> Yeah, I'm giving it a shot.
21:33 < Bradipo> So far the MD5 has matches, so at least it's good that far.
21:33 < thrig> unless the MD5 is an arsonist, then there could be problems
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21:41 < Bradipo> Well, it seems to have created something.
21:41 < Bradipo> But it's significantly smaller than the original ISO.
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21:42 < sibiria> was the original by chance 4.3 or 4.7 gb?
21:42 < sibiria> likely just full of empty sectors
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21:42 < Bradipo> It's much bigger... it's 11 GiB.
21:43 < Bradipo> This ISO is not meant to go on a DVD.
21:43 < sibiria> DL DVD mayhaps
21:43 < sibiria> DL-DS
21:44 < Bradipo> So geteltorito, at least not the shell script, didn't work.
21:46 < Bradipo> Guess I'll try the perl.
21:48 < Bradipo> Interesting, the perl produces only 4K file.
21:49 < Bradipo> Well, I can mount the ISO with vnconfig and mount_udf.
21:49 < Bradipo> Maybe I can somehow get the EFI stuff to boot.
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22:08 < morpho> cgnarne: my 9front boots, how am i meant to get to the plan9.ini?
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22:09 < mischief> morpho: you are better off in the deep end at #cat-v for 9front.
22:11 < morpho> its on an openbsd vm
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22:40 < morpho> got it
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