--- Log opened Sun Apr 19 00:00:09 2026
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00:05 < morpho> is netbsd make and openbsd make the same?
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00:06 < humm> no
00:06 < humm> openbsd’s and netbsd’s make descend from the same make
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00:08 < thrig> there was a consolidation of code after The Lawsuit and has continued to be cross sharing but it's different trees
00:08 < morpho> ah, im tryin to port some software and there is a netbsd makefile
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00:09 < morpho> or meson, neither work
00:09 < izder456> got a security patch to games/luanti merged to the openbsd 7.8-stable ports tree today. y'all should see a update to luanti soon here on 7.8-stable
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02:32 < AlaskanEmily> When I try to copy and past within AbiWord, I only get certain characters (seems to just be double and single quotes). Do I need a separate clipboard manager to support rich text copy+paste?
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10:31 < opensauce04> I couldn't find any information on this anywhere, so sorry if this is documented and I missed it, but is it considered acceptable for software to hardcode /usr/X11R6/include as an include path in its build process? In other words, is it safe to assume that, despite the directory including a revision, the path won't change?
10:32 < vortexx> in OpenBSD this is valid, yes. So long as xenocara is in tree there will be that directory
10:33 < opensauce04> So is the inclusion of the revision in the path just a legacy thing?
10:34 < opensauce04> As in, it's a holdover from when the revision number *was* being changed, but it won't be changed in the future
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10:39 < vortexx> if you mean the R6 in X11R6, that won't evolve no. It hasn't in 30 years iirc
10:39 < opensauce04> Cool, thanks
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10:48 < mokkurkalve> I've noticed that the "timeout" in my /etc/boot.conf are never respected. Does the order of commands have something to say? I've had: stty com0 115200 - set tty com0 - set timeout 8  Will changing the order to: set timeout 8 - stty com0 115200 - set tty com0  have any effect?
10:50 < mokkurkalve> (the - here represents new line in the config file)
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11:05 < emmanuelux> hello this syntax does not seems to work : "route change -inet6 default -priority 50 <gateway_address>" (to change priority route to 50) ? thx
11:05 < oldlaptop> opensauce04: You probably still don't want to hardcode include paths (in general, but especially something like /usr/X11R6), because they'll be different on different systems.
11:06 < sibiria> opensauce04: i think what you really might be looking for is the X11BASE environment parameter
11:06 < sibiria> unlikely to ever change, but that would be the future-proof way
11:06 < sibiria> e.g. ${X11BASE}/include
11:06 < opensauce04> oldlaptop: In this case, the path is being included within a CMake block which is conditional on the current platform being OpenBSD, so it should probably be fine?
11:06 < oldlaptop> (I doubt many linuxes put anything under /usr/X11R6. I don't happen to have systems to hand, but I wouldn't be surprised if one of the other BSD descendants do it differently. All the stuff that's under /usr/local on OpenBSD will be under /usr/pkg on NetBSD. Etc., etc.)
11:07 < oldlaptop> Probably, unless you can get your hands on ${X11BASE} in that context somehow.
11:07 < oldlaptop> (or rather that would be nicer)
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11:20 < vortexx> no /usr/X11R6 on either ubuntu 25.10 or a very old centos v8 release
11:26 < PETEcoolguy> peenar
11:26 < humm> opensauce04: why though?  why not use pkg-config or something?
11:26 < humm> I assume CMake has some way to ask pkg-config
11:26 < PETEcoolguy> holy opensauce04 have you been to opensauce?
11:27 < PETEcoolguy> in san diego
11:27 < PETEcoolguy> iirc
11:35 < opensauce04> humm: No, but I have been @'d multiple times on Mastodon with people thinkin I was the official account for it, so I do know what it is lol
11:35 < opensauce04> thinking*
11:56 < mokkurkalve> On Arch Linux there are /usr/lib/X11/ /usr/include/X11/ /usr/share/X11/ ... I guess this is similar on more linuxes 
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12:16 < oldlaptop> the X11/ is, AIUI, the part of that path you *are* supposed to hardcode, in the actual #include.
12:17 < oldlaptop> It's /usr/X11R6/include/X11 on OpenBSD.
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12:20 < sibiria> it's /usr/X11R6/include, because when working with X you commonly include X11 in the path when including headers
12:21 < sibiria> e.g. <X11/Xlib.h>, <X11/Xlibint.h> etc.
12:21 < oldlaptop> indeed
12:23 < sibiria> a dull reminder that i've yet to finish my zero-dependency X-background-image thingy
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12:31 < humm> sibiria: unhappy with xsetroot?
12:33 < sibiria> yes because it only does monochromatic bitmaps
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14:14 < vortexx> sibiria: xv is ancient but does the job. Does call in libs though
14:15 < sibiria> xv is the "leanest" option for wanting to set a jpeg/png as background image. but it does rope some 10-15 deps in
14:18 < vortexx> it's what I use to set a background in X11R5 on Commodore Unix
14:18 < leah> https://pkgsrc.se/wip/librewolf
14:19 < sibiria> that's some hot stuff
14:19 < leah> i didn't make this
14:19 < leah> but i recently learned that it exists. and thus, my librewolf porting effort in netbsd shall cease.
14:19 < leah> no point duplicating an already viable effort
14:19 < leah> my openbsd port shall suffice. i don't use netbsd anyway.
14:21 < leah> xv is a pretty conservative choice for 2d rendering
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14:28 < leah> that's like, the best thing ever. when i cancel a job, because someone already done it.
14:28 < leah> best feeling ever
14:29 < leah> i independentlyy came up with the idea a few years ago, to develop an FPGA-based optical disc drive emulator for the Sony Playstation, to be used on models with failing optical drives
14:30 < sibiria> there have been about a dozen of those projects for the saturn, ps1, dreamcast etc. the past 15 years
14:30 < leah> when i started doing the research, and reading various schematics, i learned that several commercial products already exist that do precisely this, and i simply purchased one. actually two. the psio, and the xstation.
14:31 < leah> there is now an open source implementation called the picostation, that runs on an rp2040-based raspberry pi pico
14:31 < leah> no fpga. just a crap little micro controller
14:31 < leah> i find that in general, when i come up with a good idea, someone already had and implemented the same idea
14:32 < leah> sometimes i'm blessed and get to me the one to implement it. like my librewolf openbsd port
14:32 < leah> be*
14:34 < leah> sometimes though i find that existing implementations suck, so i make one better. e.g. on sega saturn, people replace sram with fram to fix saves dying after like 3 months (fram is non-volatile). expensive and over-engineered. i... found that the cr2023 powers not only sram but a power-hungry chip called smpc that controls the rtc. reasoning that since most people who do fram leave the rtc
14:34 < leah> unpowered during powerdown anyway, with fram just hardwired to main vcc, i.... hard-wired smpc to 3.3v, thus reducing the current drain on the cr2032 by 99%
14:34 < leah> so, make sram last 30 years. cut 1 transistor pin and solder 1 wire. piece of piss
14:34 < leah> 2 minute job
14:35 < leah> cr2032*
14:36 < sibiria> reminds me that i haven't opened my saturn up in ages. i wonder how bad the 2032 cell has leaked
14:36 < leah> the fram mod requires hot air rework and a lot more gear, and those fram chips aren't made anymore. my mod will still work in 50 years. fram won't.
14:37 < leah> it's not the cr2032 necessarily that you must concern yourself with. sega used cheap-ass capacitors. you should probably just re-cap the thing.
14:37 < leah> also, i can show you how to do the mod i just described, if you wish
14:37 < sibiria> please do share
14:38 < leah> well i don't have it anymore but... check schematics. you'll find that there are two FETs hooked up to the CR2032
14:38 < leah> one of them switches either main power or cr2032(during powerdown) to SRAM
14:38 < leah> the other does the same for SMPC
14:38 < leah> SMPC is labelled on the schematics, it handles peripherals and such, but also the RTC
14:39 < leah> just remove the FET that powers SMPC, and bypass VCC; connect the VCC pin on SMPC directly to any nearby 3.3v source, near/on preferably a ceramic decoupling capacitor
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14:40 < leah> now SMPC never runs on battery, ever, and nearly all current draw on the CR2032 battery is eliminated, thus ensuring that your SRAM lasts decades, not months
14:40 < leah> then just install a new CR2032 - i recommend maxell brand, this is what i use
14:40 < leah> https://segaretro.org/images/4/4e/Sega_Service_Manual_-_Sega_Saturn_%28PAL%29_-_013-1_-_June_1995.pdf
14:41 < leah> SMPC is like, right near the controller ports. usually closest to controller port 1. you can find it in this document.
14:41 < leah> and you'll find two fets nearby SMPC / controller ports
14:41 < leah> buzz them out; on your multimeter, set to continuity testing, check which FET is wired to the SMPC and which one is wired to SRAM.
14:42 < leah> the result is that you have to enter the time and date every time you boot
14:42 < leah> most games don't use time/data anyway
14:42 < leah> i can't believe that actually passed sega's quality assurance testing, or lack thereof. sram that dies in 3 months is pretty shit if you ask me.
14:42 < leah> but this mod fixes it
14:43 < sibiria> which is fine, everything is "flashing 12" here anyway and i don't mind the RTC resetting
14:43 < leah> i invented it years ago when i saw people installing fram ICs and i was like, damn, that sucks. so i did it my way
14:43 < leah> this is what i do. reinvent decades of research, cheaper and better.
14:46 < sibiria> thanks for the schematic and info
14:49 < leah> smpc = system management and peripheral control
14:51 < leah> i invented another fix on the sega master system a few years ago, to fix jailbar noise on the video output. existing hacks addressed it, but invented an actual fix. on modern displays, with rgb output, on decent scalers, you see all the electrical noise. you see a pattern of lines across the screen, that look like jailbars, hence the name.
14:52 < sibiria> pretty common artefact on older RF modulators
14:52 < leah> they are caused by oscillations in the video signal. i spent an afternoon reading the schematics, noticing that the RGB DAC also had a clock divider in it for generating the CPU clock; GPU (VDP) takes 10.76mhz input, divides by 3, outputting 3.58mhz for the CPU clock input.
14:52 < sibiria> the commodore 64 (and more) suffers from it heavily
14:52 < leah> well now!
14:53 < leah> i reasoned that... yeah, any frequency divider, likely a couple of flip flops in this case, will cause ripple energy. since the DAC is powered by the same source as the divider, for vcc, i reasoned that the noise was in vcc, thus being coupled into the analog output.
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14:54 < leah> my fix was simple: since it's a flip-flop based circuit in those days (nobody used PLLs, everyone used bigger clocks and divided them instead of multiplying), cutting the output disables frequency division.
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14:54 < leah> my fix is to remove the master clock entirely, and cut the VDP's clock output. instead: wire my own PLL-based reprogrammable oscillator circuit near the CPU. and generate the VDP clock from that - a PLL keeps the two in phase, important for timing (otherwise you get corrupted sprites).
14:55 < leah> this removes the ripple current inside the VDP, thus eliminating jailbar noise.
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14:56 < leah> the 2nd part to the fix is to replace the RGB amp, usually a sony CXA1145, with a good one e.g. THS7374 that has a good low-pass filter. and output that to your OSSC or PVM or whatever. everyone was already doing this, but doubling up on low-pass filtering to mitigate jailbars rather than eliminate them. my fix eliminates them entirely.
14:56 < leah> many other consoles likely could be fixed using a similar technique
14:57 < leah> there are two hidden, optional steps to further reduce noise: add proper decoupling capacitors to all vcc pins on the vdp (100nF and 4.7uF) should do the trick. and on some models, re-routing the video RAM lines can help a little bit.
14:58 < leah> this mod works irrespectively of the RF modulator, which is only active if connected (it's all passive circuitry)
14:58 < sibiria> on my C64s i settled for the simplest known fix which was just adding a ceramic capacitor to soften the slopes generated by one of the clock generators
14:58 < leah> yeah, a proper fix there will be the same
14:58 < leah> replace the clockgen
14:58 < sibiria> pulses leak into the luminance output
14:58 < leah> use a modern PLL-based design
14:59 < leah> these generate much lower ripple noise
15:03 < leah> sega also uses a bunch of electrolytic 10uF capacitors. you can replace these with ceramics nowadays; ceramic 10uF used to be unavailable back then
15:04 < leah> ceramics has much lower ESR, thus reducing overall ripple noise further, any a given circuit
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15:09 < leah> or
15:09 < leah> yeah just use mister/emulators
15:09 < leah> easier :)
15:09 < sibiria> i do like me my original hardware
15:10 < leah> same. i'm a bit of a snob actually.
15:10 < sibiria> but always keep a small handheld around for comfortable emulation
15:10 < sibiria> powkiddy model currently
15:11 < leah> 8- and 16-bit emulators are pretty much perfect these days
15:11 < leah> like, ares/higan and mame are amazing
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15:19 < leah> emulators are the reason i got into computer science. i went to a friend's house when i was 12, in 2003, and his older brother was playing playstation games on his windows PC. and i wanted to know how the hell he was able to do that. so i studied emulators for fun.
15:20 < leah> the concept that a computer is logically just an array of bytes and a bunch of if states blew my mind
15:21 < leah> for simple interpretative emulators anyway. dynamic recompilers are a different beast.
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15:39 < leah> sibiria: saturn is full of snake oil on the modding scene actually
15:40 < leah> there's another mod for a "region free bios". which i consider junk. all it does is change like, one instruction in the bios rom, when it does the region check, making it return instead of do the check
15:40 < leah> some games actually change language based on the region. nights into dreams for example.
15:41 < sibiria> i remember just region-fixing the ISOs themselves
15:41 < leah> there are some jumpers on the console that you can toggle with a switch, to change language. after that, you just need a modchip, to defeat the wobble check. and if you want, install whatever ODE and HDMI mods are available
15:41 < leah> yes that too
15:42 < leah> japanese model 2 saturns are pretty dope. i'd get one of these if i could be bothered to get back into that stuff again. it's a really cute visual design.
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15:42 < leah> https://www.sega-saturn.net/hardware/SEGA_Saturn_HST-3220_big.jpg
15:43 < leah> there are still lots of japanese consoles on the market, because the saturn was very popular in japan
15:45 < leah> yeah like, nights into dreams is a perfect example. they pretty much just shipped the same build to every region, right? you change the game region in the iso and the game switches language
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15:46 < leah> i wouldn't even bother with mods to the saturn, except re-cap, and my cr2032 fix. besides that, there are ODEs that pretty much just plug in, no soldering required.
15:46 < leah> probably re-cap the power supply too. that's it. basic servicing.
15:47 < leah> no need for modchip with ODE.
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16:43 < polarian> hmm, weird issue, so OpenBSD loader can see sd0 and sd1 on boot, cool. Run through the installer until it prompts to select a disk, and only sd0 exists (the installation media)
16:43 < polarian> ive tried 3 different drives, one SSD two HDDs
16:43 < polarian> sorry no two SSDs one HDD
16:43 < polarian> all of which worked fine on freebsd
16:44 < polarian> I have installed OpenBSD on this device before, so this is kinda weird
16:44 < polarian> maybe an issue with the 7.8 installer, maybe I should try installing 7.7 and then sysupgrade after
16:44 < polarian> 7.9 should be dropping shortly though 
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16:51 < vortexx> polarian: you can always drop into shell, cd /dev && sh ./MAKEDEV sd1 sd2
16:54 < pardis> that is unlikely to help if the installer isn't seeing the disk
16:55 < pardis> (but can't hurt either)
16:55 < vortexx> odd the installer can't see the disk if it's in dmesg though
16:56 < polarian> I could check the dmesg, but I dont see why the loader can see it but not the installer
16:56 < pardis> I don't think it has been stated that it is in dmesg
16:56 < pardis> and also that isn't weird at all
16:57 < pardis> the bootloader has no drivers, it relies on BIOS/UEFI routines to see disks
16:57 < pardis> so this most likely means the installer kernel doesn't have a driver for your disk controller, or it is failing to attach
16:57 < pardis> dmesg may tell you more
16:59 < oldlaptop> stock advice would include "make sure any switches in firmware settings between 'RAID' and 'AHCI' say 'AHCI'"
16:59 < sibiria> disable CSM, disable PATA compat mode if present
17:00 < polarian> ah I think I know why this is 
17:00 < polarian> its the stupid dell SATA controller settings 
17:00 < polarian> it doesnt cause issues with other OS
17:00 < polarian> but OpenBSD is fussy about it
17:00 < polarian> I just need to remember which mode OpenBSD doesn't complain about
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17:01 < polarian> also this is being discussed on the mailing list as well ironically enough
17:01 < polarian> not by me, by someone else
17:02 < sibiria> dell should be banned from making computers
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17:19 < vortexx> Intel RapidStorage is a feature with just about every computer maker iirc
17:20 < thrig> look out for the RabidStorage variant
17:21 < sibiria> pretty much the same thing given the intel origin
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17:26 < mlxdy> Is it true that OpenBSD console don't support UTF-8?
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17:31 < sibiria> nor any other unicode encoding
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17:45 < vortexx> mlxdy: devs don't appear to be very interested in adding that support, either
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18:08 < mlw> I am carrying out an OpenBSD install on an unstable connection. When downloading the sets, it stalls.
18:09 < humm> could use an installer image with the sets included
18:09 < ssm_> ftp has a -C flag to continue interrupted transfers. you could also try a torrent, though I don't know any official ones
18:09 < mlw> Is there a way to reload or continue from within the installer?
18:09 < mlw> Ctrl + C kills it, but then botches the install requiring a redo.
18:10 < ssm_> connect to an ftp mirror an fetch the sets manually and point the install at the path you fetch them to
18:10 < ssm_> also verify checksums since your connection is flakey
18:12 < mlw> Ok, the ftp option might be what is needed. I will do that.
18:22 < thrig> or SneakerNet™ from a more stable connection
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18:51 < ssm_> that's not true, if you do sneakernet a random cosmic ray could hit while you're walking and uncopy your floppy
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19:03 < thrig> life is buffering
19:05 < vortexx> if you're still using a floppy to do the install these days you're probably better off using tape or a cdrom
19:06 < thrig> and $1000 to university of berkeley too
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19:09 < mischief> i use the UCB OCF mirror for openbsd and debian, it's very fast :D
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19:19 < thrig> folks did send money to UCB despite folks putting BSD up on ftp sites
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--- Log closed Mon Apr 20 00:00:10 2026