--- Log opened Sat May 02 00:00:21 2026
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00:02 < zbar> sjjd: after you tell cmake to link to openmp you'll need to also add `link_directories("/usr/local/lib")`
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00:34 < sjjd> is openmp not available in openbsd at all?
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00:50 < fro> i don't think the #cmake suggestion was a joke
00:51 < mischief> the commit history for devel/llvm-openmp seems to suggest it's broken, and not built. so to answer sjjd: no, not right now
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13:22 < unrznbl> was trying to use talk via two separate ssh sessions, does that not work?
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15:16 < thenightmail> I just setup openbsd after using linux for a while, and I can't figure out how I want to handle all of the dotfiles for my user. I found out about got and that is blowing my mind, but there are other things like chezmoi and stow that I've heard people use
15:17 < thenightmail> I haven't thought this through, but it'd be kind of nice if the home dir was just the configuration and junk that the programs setup and then have everything else in partitions
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15:41 < Rue_> hmm cdn.openbsd.org seems to be down
15:42 < ssm_> does that mean It's Happening?
15:42 < lts> Or just your closest one?
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15:47 < sibiria> doesn't it belly-up all the dang time?
15:47 < morpho> thenightmail: some people use got, its quite good
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16:24 < unrznbl> thenightmail I use a .gitignore file containing '*' and go from there in my homedir. works great for me for years. :)
16:24 < unrznbl> git add -f anything you want to keep :)
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17:05 < broke> Sorry if this might sound like a newbie question. When I boot into my computer, the init system at everyboot starts running the make newbsd and the reorder_kernel command, I tried searching online about this or probably what setting I used to trigger this but unable to find such thing. Any help?
17:07 < thrig> grep -r reorder_kernel /etc 2>/dev/null
17:08 < sibiria> broke: it's supposed to
17:09 < broke> thrig: /etc/rc:/usr/libexec/reorder_kernel &
17:09 < broke> sibiria: is this documented? I'm sorry I haven't had much time to read it;
17:09 < sibiria> if you absolutely want to, or need to, you can disable the kernel relinking: false > /var/db/kernel.SHA256
17:10 < broke> I would if I would know what I'm missing after disabling such thing
17:10 < sibiria> in my own personal opinion, nothing, because you will still be running a uniquely linked kernel after every syspatch that involves a kernel patch
17:11 < sibiria> if your host is for some reason a real target, you might benefit by constantly shoveling things around in the kernel on every boot
17:11 < broke> oh probably on a server
17:11 < broke> but this is a laptop
17:11 < broke> so I am gonna disable it
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17:11 < broke> thanks
17:12 < sibiria> i leave it as is on any system that doesn't need a minute to get it done
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17:14 < broke> So I am supposed to write this file: /var/db/kernel.SHA256 to false?
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17:14 < tylerius> I disable it in <= 1GB VPS to avoid swapping. I have this in /etc/rc.local:
17:14 < tylerius> echo "SHA256 (/bsd) = NO" > /var/db/kernel.SHA256
17:14 < tylerius> when syspatch, if it involves kernel, I previously run # sha256 -h /var/db/kernel.SHA256 /bsd
17:14 < sibiria> broke: you can copy-paste what i wrote
17:14 < sibiria> it'll empty the file
17:15 < broke> and that would disable it?
17:15 < tylerius> it works for me
17:15 < sibiria> it just needs to *not* match the expected checksum and format. emptying the file gets the job done
17:15 < sibiria> no need to put anything specific in there
17:15 < tylerius> yeah, but it has to be done after every reboot
17:16 < tylerius> otherwise it will relink again, at least the last time I tried
17:16 < broke> oh good to know
17:16 < broke> so this isn't something you can disable entirely? (except for on kernel syspatch)
17:16 < tylerius> that's why I put it in /etc/rc.local
17:17 < tylerius> afaik there's not any config knob to disable it
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17:17 < sibiria> the change stays between reboots. you don't need to alter the file over and over
17:17 < broke> I will test that then
17:17 < broke> so...
17:17 < broke> false > /var/db/kernel.SHA256
17:17 < broke> ?
17:17 < sibiria> yes
17:18 < broke> brb then
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17:21 < broke> sibiria: ok it is as you say, that worked
17:23 < sibiria> remember to relink manually after every syspatch
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17:24 < sibiria> when necessary, you'll get a warning reminding you about it and how to proceed
17:24 < sibiria> remember you'll need to*
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17:26 < broke> I'm sorry to ask this, but (as it was automatic) could you point me to the documents for this manual relinking?
17:26 < broke> or the manpage
17:27 < sibiria> i don't think there is a manpage about it. the process is mentioned here and there
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17:28 < sibiria> what the program (reorder_kernel) does is first to check if /var/db/kernel.sha256 matches the kernel file, /bsd
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17:28 < sibiria> if not, it just exits with an instruction of how to restore functionality
17:29 < sibiria> what syspatch does*
17:30 < cgnarne> broke: for libs there is library_aslr in rc.conf
17:30 < sibiria> maybe i'm getting the order jumbled up, but at the end of it you'll be presented with a warning about it either way
17:31 < sibiria> syspatch runs reorder_kernel, reorder_kernel will do its thing or return an error message for syspatch
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17:34 < cgnarne> broke: as always, if you stray from the defaults you get to keep the broken pieces
17:35 < broke> I try to stay as much closer to the defaults I can
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17:35 < broke> openbsd has a lot of amazing defaults
17:36 < sibiria> reordering the kernel after every kernal patch, and every reboot, is one of those defaults
17:36 < broke> why after reboot though? sorry for asking this
17:37 < sibiria> the rationale is that it would make it harder for an attacker with access to your system, to map out the kernel's internal layout
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17:37 < sibiria> partial progress is gone after reboot when the new kernel is booted etc.
17:38 < broke> hmm, alright I guess I'll ask something else then
17:38 < sibiria> imo it's a bit of a fringe security trick, but it's not 100% useless
17:39 < broke> I'd then probably prefer to keep it like the default but limit the amount of resources it takes even if takes 5mins instead of the 30seconds it takes
17:39 < sibiria> if they would've settled for relinking it efter each syspatch i'd personally be just as happy
17:39 < broke> well that's what I was thinking as well, but this is openbsd, and I don't have experience, there is some kind of security hole to fullfill
17:40 < sibiria> it's not too bad on a reasonably modern computer. takes some 15-20 seconds to relink everything at boot on my low-end system
17:40 < sibiria> livable
17:40 < cgnarne> imho, the security benefits of the relinking are questionable but they don't hurt
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17:41 < broke> when it comes to security, there's a threat model, I was just thinking if my threat model actually needs this
17:42 < broke> nonetheless, I would actually be able to tell if I knew what kind of threat model or security hole this is meant for
17:42 < broke> well, sibiria did mention about it a bit I guess......
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17:43 < sibiria> some advanced exploits rely on knowing various memory offsets of this and that component inside the kernel
17:43 < sibiria> if these offsets ahve been determined, but suddenly are no longer valid, there's less (or nothing) to potentially exploit
17:43 < broke> but "access to your system" as in when it is up and running, meaning if someone would steal my computer when I have it turned on, that's pretty high stuff. Or on a server, if the server gives shell access to users they would reorder_kernel on a cron job or something.
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17:44 < broke> I'm probably missing more points because of inexperience
17:45 < sibiria> unless the process bogs down your machine down for more than a minute after boot, i'd just let it do its thing
17:45 < broke> well it does bog down my machine for about 5seconds less than a minute after boot
17:46 < sibiria> it uses a bit of memory, some disk i/o, it's not a thing that's running residentially in the background
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17:47 < broke> I'm finding myself on the same conclusion as well.
17:47 < broke> I'll stick to the defaults
17:47 < broke> I trust openbsd on this
17:48 < broke> (oh well, now I have to put the syntax back on the file?)
17:48 < sibiria> sha256 -h /var/db/kernel.SHA256 /bsd
17:50 < broke> but on another thought, would it be better to extend the time it requires to reorder_kernel, by limiting the resources it uses? (then again I'm not sure how I'd actually do that *in openbsd*)
17:50 < tylerius> did I understand it well? the protection works when /bsd file is relinked differently than the kernel loaded in memory
17:50 < broke> oh....
17:51 < sibiria> tylerius: no, when /bsd matches /var/db/kernel.SHA256
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17:51 < tylerius> in other words... when it's relinked after reboot, right?
17:51 < sibiria> and after syspatch which involves kernel
17:52 < tylerius> I'm currently preventing it to relink after reboot.. but I relink after syspatch
17:54 < tylerius> I'll fully enable it again. Years ago KARL prevented nsd to start in a VPS with 512MB RAM, now I have 1GB (obsdams)
17:56 < sibiria> the process is somewhat hungry, but i know it works out on as "little" as 768 mb of ram without getting in the way of other things in the base system
17:57 < sibiria> (i run an authorative name server as well, on 768 mb of ram, with all relinking enabled)
17:57 < broke> well on a low-end device it basically renders it kind of unusable.
17:57 < broke> or on a server that might be an issue with 512MB RAM as said
17:57 < tylerius> nice to know. Will enable it right now, thanks!
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18:13 < sibiria> broke: in my experience it's more about slow disk i/o than CPU perf. it's after all relinking, not much "compute" involved
18:13 < sibiria> my low-power celeron gets it done pretty quickly
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18:20 < broke> I see, I guess this SSD I have probably is the bottleneck, I tested this have around ~45 MiB/s RW speed
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18:23 < lun01> SSD 're more fast then 45MiB/s
18:23 < lun01> how do you connected it?
18:24 < broke> Well I have not really bothered with it but its a SATA SSD, I thought they were like that
18:24 < broke> unlike M.2 or NVME
18:24 < sibiria> speed looks normal for openbsd :p
18:25 < broke> (eh?)
18:25 < sibiria> if you're running full-disk encryption, that sort of cuts throughput in half on top of openbsd's already slow file systems
18:25 < lts> We're not blazing fast here
18:25 < broke> ah yes this *is* FDE
18:25 < broke> its a laptop
18:26 < broke> mobile devices should have FDE fullstop
18:27 < broke> Well, I have heard of openbsd's ffs, I was a normal ext4 guy back in linux
18:27 < broke> I always kept to defaults
18:27 < broke> there's like 20+ more FS out there, and I've not bothered
18:27 < broke> all in the Linux land though
18:27 < broke> or people here are possibly running different FS on their openbsd machines?
18:28 < sibiria> you might find some weirdo running ext2. otherwise everyone is using ffs because it's the most modern option available
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18:29 < broke> well it is the "Fast File System" (LOL)
18:30 < lun01> I think hardware capability does not matter, what matters is what type file system OS has with settings
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18:31 < lun01> does bsd has better then linux ext4?
18:32 < lun01> what does free and open prefix in BSD?
18:32 < lts> You can and should research these yourself
18:33 < lts> tl;dr if you want a great copy-on-write filesystem, ZFS on FreeBSD is it
18:35 -!- krl_ [~krl@h-155-4-221-200.NA.cust.bahnhof.se] has joined #openbsd
18:36 < topcat001> This is my approach as well ^^. Just use ZFS as the backup system, while OBSD can be the "working" system. Then it does not matter too much what FS it uses.
18:37 < topcat001> I use both NFS mounts and rsync.
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18:38 < lun01> is it unix os?
18:38 < lts> You'll need to ask Mr Google or another search engine at this point
18:39 -!- fspax [~fspax@46.148.133.131] has joined #openbsd
18:39 < lun01> means this channel will not help
18:40 < lun01> IRC is now totally opposite.
18:41 < lts> You're not going to get much help from IRC asking the very basics that are easy to investigate yourself, and you'll learn a lot more when doing that too 
18:41 < lts> http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html explains further
18:42 < sibiria> or, someone with an answer simply isn't around to see your question. this isn't an official support channel. we're all just random lamers
18:42 < lts> Not trying to be a dick here, we're happy to help when you've run into a problem that's not something you can google in ten seconds
18:43 < lun01> why google i ask AI
18:43 < broke> damn calm down
18:43 < broke> ah oops I had this chat open while I was doing stuff :P
18:43 < lun01> I was asking to have fun conversation.
18:44 < broke> well fun comes first with some kind of background
18:44 < broke> or well, it certainly didn't sound like fun
18:44 < thenightmail> what version of OpenBSD did you guys first use? for me it is 7.8, I just started last week.
18:44 < lun01> Asking basic questions is not fun?
18:44 < broke> "does bsdd has better <fs> than linux ext4"
18:45 < broke> it is basic, however provocative
18:45 < broke> that's basically tone
18:45 < broke> that's why they responded like that
18:45 < broke> that's IRC
18:45 < lun01> You must be amrikan
18:45 < broke> you what I'm not :\
18:45 < broke> thenightmail: I'm also new :)
18:45 < broke> someone insisted I use OpenBSD for Unix minimalism
18:46 < broke> because I was always on the line of the suckless projects
18:46 < broke> and dwm and st is a perfect fit on OpenBSD (sorry theo, I don't like fvwm)
18:46 < lun01> ok
18:46 < thenightmail> and then a follow up question is, what is something you learned late in your use of OpenBSD that you want to tell new users of OpenBSD early on in their use of it.
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18:47 < lun01> I have hardly find any job portals recruiter mentioning they need somone with openBSD experience.
18:47 < lun01> why is that so?
18:47 < broke> this certainly doesn't feel like you are here for fun
18:48 < broke> you should probably take that somewhere else
18:48 < thenightmail> ask google
18:48 < broke> ^
18:48 -!- brian__ is now known as brianth
18:50 < lun01> who is Theo de Raadt?
18:50 < broke> the founder
18:50 < broke> rest of your answers are on the openbsd website
18:50 < thenightmail> but also, there is a mirror at MIT where you can get the sets when you do the OpenBSD installation, so there are people at MIT involved at providing OpenBSD for everyone if that means anything to you. At least I found that pretty interesting when I saw it.
18:51 < broke> its probably the niche people at MIT
18:51 < lun01> I see it's less slow then Linux.
18:51 < broke> source?
18:52 < lun01> performance wise
18:52 < ssm_> lun01: https://howdoesmycode.work/tmp/5615.png origins of theo featuring latest copy.fail exploit
18:52 < broke> oh from linux?
18:52 < broke> I've heard
18:52 < broke> wait we just literally had the discussion in #security
18:52 < lun01> ssm_ stop linking...
18:52 < topcat001> Speed isn't the focus for OpenBSD. For most stuff, the performance is fine on a "modern" system (mine are 5-10y old).
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18:53 < broke> topcat001: that's what I found out as well, Linux is amazing on this low-end machine, but I inherently don't like Linux distros
18:53 < broke> every distro is a mess
18:54 < ssm_> try rabbit linux
18:54 < lun01> what do you mean low end?
18:54 < lun01> linux is malware os
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18:55 < broke> ssm_: hmm probably just I don't get the down panels :\
18:55 < broke> sorry
18:55 < morpho> what you refer to as linux is actually chrome/linux
18:56 < topcat001> I was running OpenBSD on my work machine for a while. Then new company said, must run Win11. I negotiated down to Ubuntu with management, so that's where I am :)
18:56 < broke> what was that about?
18:56 < broke> topcat001: that's a improvement
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18:56 < broke> it would be worse if it was RHEL or something
18:56 < thenightmail> my first linux distro was ubuntu
18:56 < topcat001> It would have driven me insane otherwise :)
18:57 < thenightmail> just live in the wsl or whatever
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18:57 < thenightmail> ehhhh, that is tragic
18:57 < broke> morpho: what you refer to linux is RH/Systemd/GNU/<more_mess>/Linux
18:57 < broke> topcat001: I can relate to that, Windows is the quite the opposite of OpenBSD
18:57 < topcat001> WSL is fine, but on Linux I can run a job using 62 GB RAM on my 64 GB machine, and its hardly noticeable. It's extremely performant.
18:58 < ssm_> broke: guy on the right in the first panel's head explodes from tux going nuclear, then puffy grows out of his neck and exclaims "By Theo!", Theo de Raadt's famous catch phrase
18:58 < topcat001> I actually have OBSD on a VM on this machine.
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18:58 < broke> ah!
18:58 < broke> I see now
18:58 < broke> damn I'm bad at this
18:58 < broke> thanks
18:59 < ssm_> no you're not, literally no one got the joke
18:59 < broke> oh..
18:59 < topcat001> It's not that I don't know Windows; quite the opposite. However, that also means I know how massively crap it is. Both technically and the whole culture/mindset around it.
19:00 < lun01> which companies uses BSD
19:00 < topcat001> Ubuntu isn't quite as clean as a base OBSD install, but with some effort it can be tamed.
19:00 < lun01> ?
19:00 < broke> lun01: there's one bank I've heard in the states that use OpenBSD
19:01 < lun01> uBUNTU is cut copy and past of debian.
19:01 < lun01> which bank?
19:01 < broke> topcat001: Ubuntu and Any distro isn't nowhere as clean as OBSD install
19:01 < topcat001> I ran a big campaign at my work for allowing on-metal Linux (they don't know/care what BSD is for the most part).
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19:01 < topcat001> OpeBSD? Blank stares :)
19:01 < broke> then again I didnt hear about Rabbit Linux I need to check them out
19:02 < sibiria> imo void and alpine are the two linux dists that come closest to openbsd's "cleanliness"
19:02 < topcat001> Linux is the gateway to BSD exposure to these people. with time...
19:02 < broke> topcat001: is it a company after the 90s?
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19:03 < broke> I tried void and alpine and I'll say, no I'd rather use OpenBSD
19:03 < topcat001> A Windows shop. WE do release Linux builds, and increasingly devs are using WSL.
19:03 < lun01> Building an running OS project required great funding with skill people.
19:03 < broke> if it was truly was closest to openbsd I'd probably just use alpine
19:04 < topcat001> To my great disappointment, IT/management is totally married to M$$$. I have immense disdain for the whole ecosystem.
19:04 < broke> (which I do, on my homelab)
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19:04 < broke> "A Windows shop"??
19:04 < broke> sorry don't know about this
19:04 < topcat001> Just means people develop/use windows mostly
19:05 < lun01> window is successful operating system.
19:05 < broke> software for windows?
19:05 < lun01> I think in the race of OS, 1. Windows by MS, and then 2. Apple OS Then Linux.
19:06 < topcat001> The irony is, being a senior dev I often help/consult to solve often tricky problems people have, so I have to know windows quite well :D
19:06 < topcat001> qemu VMs to the rescue.
19:06 < lun01> Every major companies uses windows.
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19:06 < broke> lun01: I'm not sure why you are talking to yourself
19:07 < lun01> For virtualization the industries uses VMWARE
19:07 < lun01> or Oracle  type 2 hypervisor.
19:07 < broke> topcat001: "tricky problems" and windows, I just know what that is, I believe
19:07 < topcat001> We mostly use hyper-v.
19:07 < lun01> I'm just talking to general broke
19:08 < lun01> hyper-v is for windows.
19:08 < broke> Well ever since Win7 all I've heard from tech people was "Windows sucks, and we are technicians, becuse windows sucks is the reason we make money"
19:08 < topcat001> the first problem is the existence of windows; it's all downhill after that hehe
19:08 < broke> the fact they make money from windows being ass was really funny to me back then
19:08 < topcat001> broke: haha indeed
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19:09 < topcat001> We actually make numerical computation software, and recently all production deployment is on Linux.
19:10 < broke> well Linux certainly has made a lot of progress, but they certainly didn't care about the Unix people.
19:10 < topcat001> The was a (brief and misguided) attempt to use Windows which failed spectacularly. I gained some clout during that incident.
19:10 < broke> E.g. sound system in Linux? hahahahahahahaha
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19:11 < broke> Oh I would have thought linux sound system was fine until I saw sndio
19:11 < joepublic> yes, this sucks, that sucks, the other sucks.
19:11 < topcat001> sndio is incredible. So simple.
19:12 < broke> for sound system in linux you need around 7 daemons for what sndio does itself
19:12 < broke> (not 7 but meh I like exaggerating)
19:12 < topcat001> I do use Linux a lot due to some compatibility reasons, but lessons learnt from using BSD come in handy.
19:12 < lun01> security matter in linux.
19:12 < broke> linux security is being replaced by rust
19:13 < broke> I could not believe that happened
19:13 < lun01> oh
19:13 < broke> Linux 7.0
19:13 < broke> and its on release since 2 weeks ago
19:13 < lun01> yes they 're moving on rust from C
19:13 < broke> so now you can finally get some "security"
19:14 < lun01> Why you think using rust will solve security issue?
19:15 < broke> topcat001: if your choice is anything but Win or Mac, that'd be Linux, and you see give it time, BSD gets more exposure from Linux, everyone will see Linux also kind of sucks (the technical people would) and probably adopt some of the BSDs
19:15 < topcat001> I actually grew up on HP-UX. Writing Fortran in vi on a VT100 on an HP-9000. (I am a physicist)
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19:15 < broke> lun01: I don't "security" is in double quotes
19:15 < topcat001> Then during most of my Uni I had a SGI O2 (aka my "beloved").
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19:16 < topcat001> Then when I had a PC, I put FreeBSD on it.
19:16 < lun01> These programming communities are smart. They keep certain parts of their programming logic, syntax hidden from the public, using them internally so not everyone can easily understand or exploit them an old tactic
19:17 < broke> and the opposite of being open source imho
19:17 < lun01> or find weekness.
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19:18 < broke> hmm, that's not the correct way to do it
19:18 < broke> the correct way is to have many eyes
19:18 < broke> meaning more people
19:18 < lun01> That's how they make themself safe.
19:19 < lun01> Hide the information and so that nobody can understand, only try to use it. If they understand, they will ask these questions. And if they answer those questions, those people's understanding will develop and their weaknesses will get exposed.
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19:20 < lun01> That's the foundation of open soure.
19:20 < broke> that was an amazingly roundabout way of saying something
19:21 < broke> I almost thought you were being negative
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19:24 < lun01> This is not about negative, or positive, it is experience which I have seen for the past 10 years, understanding those ecosystems. Today's smart models exit, they can easily find the bugs vulnerability in the system, because these models have that information, which was not in found in those books or courses.
19:24 < broke> anyways, I just think that Linux is an all-round alternative, but Linux isn't Unix-like and never was since last decade. BSDs kept that Unix feel which Linux didn't care about at all, because of RMS and GNU.
19:25 < broke> I was also a pro GPL person until I had an argument about licensing and ethics with someone.
19:26 < broke> lun01: vuln and bugs exist because of ecosystems that's a jungle, full of veins.
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19:28 < lun01> The bugs and vulnerabilities existed because it was a poorly designed and coded, and not been used of, you know, the knowledge, well-versed
19:28 < broke> Also, I've understood enough about computers that books and courses don't teach you, something that is called troubleshooting, It does suck to not have a straight book-to-front answer but that's how it works in the real world I believe.
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19:28 < broke> I've almost never relied on book knowledge afterwards, I just only play by troubleshooting.
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19:30 < broke> poor design and code is normal in this day and age
19:30 -!- macabro [~user@user/monkey/x-0691028] has joined #openbsd
19:30 < broke> it only happens when you don't keep it Unix
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19:31 < lun01>  The main intention is to generate revenue, make habitual to use these, and spread their tech stack to people should consume but when you audit it thoroughly, you find many bugs and vulnerabilities.
19:32 < lun01> Most american tech product do these.
19:32 < broke> bugs and vuln are normal thing in computers, you cannot have 0 of them ever
19:32 -!- fedaykin [~rusty@user/fedaykin] has quit [Quit: leaving]
19:32 < broke> but only problem is that most of them ship without actually debugging
19:32 < lun01> Bugs and vulnerabilities are not common. It should be rated not serious at all before pushing into the production or putting in a public domain. Every product should need to be thoroughly understand and tested, which they don't do.
19:33 < broke> I mean the same thing
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19:33 < broke> It used to be that back then people woudn't dare to ship a program without through testing
19:33 < broke> it is now that people do not care about that anymore
19:35 < lun01> It's a shame for the builders if their products have vulnerabilities in a production or it gets find by somebody while using it in a production. This is the big question mark on the build process, especially in the agile or whatever, where are these test frameworks, where are the logics, where it shows they were not thoroughly worked, they are not
19:35 < lun01> thoroughly designed, they have never worked on it.
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19:35 < thrig> plenty of crud shipped back in the day, IRIX from SGI used to fall over if you pointed a slightly spicy nmap at it
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19:38 < broke> oh well, good to know that, ultimately we are at the age where people will not ship throughly tested stuff in production.
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20:38 < thenightmail> So I have installed anki, but it is an old version, and it seems like it is kind of broken. At least it is acting consistently broken on two computers running OpenBSD.
20:39 < thenightmail> Am I able to learn how to get a newer version of Anki into the ports, or is there a reason this old version of Anki is the one in ports? how would I figure this out
20:43 < supaman> thenightmail: as far as I understand then ports is coordinated through the mailing list https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-ports
20:43 < supaman> thenightmail: if you want to contribute to that then offer your help out there
20:48 < thenightmail> ok thanks for that link. Searching anki seems that it is stuck on the version due to something relating to rust integration into the code and it is warned that it might not even work properly now haha
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20:50 < supaman> ok, then get Rust working ;-) (joke, I think that is a biiiiiiig project)
20:51 < thenightmail> yeah that would be kind of a nice project to go for, might try to do it after finals
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20:51 < thenightmail> i'm sure someone else wants to use anki on OpenBSD it is pretty popular program
20:54 < thrig> I replaced anki with a much simpler TUI flashcard program
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20:55 < thenightmail> here is a relavent page https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-ports&m=175559931209817&w=2 looks like anki needs to be switched to MODPY_PYBUILD, and the note about rust integration. need to verify this is still the case
20:58 < thenightmail> yeah the anki is a pain, the thing might as well be a browser. I think i'm in favor of just writing a cli ncurses alternative that is brain dead simple and text only
20:59 < thenightmail> probably that already exists too ...
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21:00 < cjs> thenightmail: Yes, there are many KISS flash card programs. Anki is special for its spaced repetition patterns based on cognitive neuroscience, community plug-in ecosystem, community decks, etc. The fact that Anki has not really been updatable in OpenBSD for years has been annoying, well, for years.
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21:01 < cjs> For some complex GUI applications, the amount of legwork required is unfeasable, but this creates a kind of vicious cycle.
21:03 < cjs> If you have the skills and the time, please do go for it, of course.
21:03 < thenightmail> I would be learning quite a bit, but probably that is for the best if I am to commit to OpenBSD long term. I am just not sure I am committed to anki long term...
21:05 < cjs> Other standard academic FOSS programs that are highly complex but would be beneficial for no small number of folks include (1) Zotero (or Jabref) for integrated citation management and so on -- we have KBibTeX, which is fantastic, but Zotero or Jabref integrates properly with LibreOffice and Firefox and simply does different things and (2) an academic note management system, perhaps one based on zettelkasten method(s) like Zettlr.
21:06 < cjs> thenightmail: These are the sorts of 'highly standard fare' libre academic software programs that long have kept folks like me in GNU/Linux rather than our otherwise basically preferred OpenBSD for desktop computing.
21:07 < supaman> there is always an option to open a request/bug in upstream to get help in compiling for OpenBSD
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21:07 < supaman> worst they do is close the bug and not do anything :-)
21:08 < cjs> p.s. thenightmail The whole point of Anki is to commit to it long-term :)
21:10 < thenightmail> I will try using a cli srs program and see if I *need* to have images, and then go from there ... for now I don't really see the need for having a browser and a browser that only does flash cards
21:10 < thenightmail> It is just convenient that anki has lots of users .. ahhh you are right hahaha
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21:12 < thenightmail> but part of what makes OpenBSD quite nice is that it doesn't have lots of users, at least that is what I gathered
21:14 < supaman> https://github.com/ankitects/anki/issues/1378 thread about bulding anki
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21:19 < thenightmail> thrig: I didn't see your message till now, but is your program available? I would like to see what you have
21:19 < hmjsp> anyone know good resources to learn filesystem programming from? i prolly won't ever get round to it, because of lack of skill and lack of time, but openbsd is in need for a more robust filesystem, and i'd like to learn more in the long term hope that maybe i can help do something about that. at the very least, i'm interested in os/filesystems in general. any resources about filesystems in general and on FFS specifically?
21:23 < gnubert> What is wrong with OpenBSD filesystem?
21:23 < janicious> hmjsp: https://www.amazon.de/Modern-Operating-Systems-Andrew-Tanenbaum/dp/013359162X
21:24 < cli> gnubert: rhetorical question?
21:25 < hmjsp> gnubert: nothing WRONG with it per se, but there are more robust, modern options that have built in checksumming, copy on write, snapshots, self healing, built in compression, better caching, etc
21:26 < hmjsp> openbsd is perfect for a lot, but i wouldn't trust it as a nas with just ffs
21:26 < sibiria> gnubert: primarily it's very slow. a part of that is owed to it being synchronous
21:26 < sibiria> synchronous is good. it's just that the rest of the file system is...slow
21:26 < cli> Wait
21:26 < hmjsp> ...which is why my long term (perhaps too ambitious) goal is to get a solid file system on it, because the simplicity and security of openbsd + a robust filesystem would be PEAK
21:27 < hmjsp> janicious: also thanks, will check out
21:27 < cli> It cannot be fully synchronous
21:27 < thenightmail> thrig: is it this? https://github.com/tallguyjenks/fla.sh
21:27 < cli> Does it wait for changes to be written to disk?
21:27 < cli> By default?
21:27 < hmjsp> i've seen that there seems to be a hammerfs port in progress... but idk much about hammerfs either
21:27 < cli> What is the sync mount option for then?
21:28 < sibiria> "async" is metadata
21:28 < cli> Ah
21:28 < cli> I see
21:29 < cli> No wonder it is so slow :b
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21:30 < supaman> just port ZFS to openbsd, makes someone happy ;-)
21:30 < sibiria> my impression is that ffs doesn't care at all about async/sync option, and persists data immediately and always. the exception was back when softdep existed, which came with a lot of pains
21:31 < hmjsp> i got openbsd to run just about everything, email, xmpp, irc, syncing documents via unison, a doom server, cgit, local dns, a personal website... the only issue is lack of fs so can't use it as nas </3
21:32 < sibiria> i never observed any performance differences between mounting async/sync, whether long sequential writes or lots of small writes
21:32 < hmjsp> all this on a rpi 4 as well, and it runs smooth. granted im the only user, but it's still wonderful, and wonderfully easy to do, and very "set and forget"
21:32 < hmjsp> really love openbsd
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21:32 < hmjsp> supaman: haha that would be insane
21:34 < cli> Just journaling would be a start
21:35 -!- tbrew [~tbrew@d4-50-26-246.evv.wideopenwest.com] has quit [Quit: Client closed]
21:36 < hmjsp> yeah i barely know anything about filesystems... but i know C and i might be free some summer, some day, may as well do something cool
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21:37 < joepublic> I look forward to booting with / on hmjspfs 
21:38 < thenightmail> i believe in u
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21:39 < hmjsp> <3
21:39 < hmjsp> trust me, this is gonna go on the backlog of my endless unfinished projects... but one can dream xD
21:41 < rIMpossible> Why not using OpenBSD for everything, but NAS and therefore https://www.freebsd.org/features/#openzfs
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21:42 < hmjsp> because multiple devices is a pain + power consumption
21:42 < hmjsp> im sure i can tank the couple of bucks it takes to run two power efficient devices at the same time, but i'd rather not out of principle
21:43 < hmjsp> so i am in the process of moving to freebsd temporarily; aside from that it's definitely still useful to learn how to use freebsd just in general
21:43 < rIMpossible> IMHO NAS should be always separated
21:44 < hmjsp> how come? user facing stuff could be run in chroot or jails and the chances of a breach happening are already quite low
21:45 < rIMpossible> It's not about breach. If one machine breaks, you have still your data on NAS rapidly accessible
21:46 -!- fspax [~fspax@46.148.130.252] has joined #openbsd
21:46 < hmjsp> i guess. but it's still just one machine running the nas... so what if the nas breaks...
21:46 -!- izder456 [~izder456@74.91.98.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
21:47 < hmjsp> but yeah more separation is generally good... maybe i should just save myself the hassle and leave everything as is except the nas
21:47 < rIMpossible> ...you can still work and put your hdd/ssd in/on the other machine
21:47 < hmjsp> still should work on porting a nice fs to openbsd just cause openbsd folk deserve it <3
21:48 < hmjsp> i mean this case, i wouldn't be able to put the ssd on the other machine because of incompatible fs, but ig it's not that deep in the grand scheme of things
21:49 < morpho> hmjsp: look at gefs
21:49 < hmjsp> is that the plan9 fs?
21:50 < morpho> one of them
21:51 < hmjsp> interesting
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21:51 < hmjsp> i did plan (hehe) to give plan9 a shot, but i got busy and didn't get much further than installing
21:52 < morpho> i have nas on a seperate machine
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21:54 < rIMpossible> me, too
21:54 < morpho> i dont know if i just dreamed it but i think if you dual boot freebsd and openbsd you can put a ffs2 partitiion on a zpool and get some of the benefits of that like snapshots
21:55 < rIMpossible> hmjsp: what about Illumos? https://illumos.org/
21:56 < morpho> i like ffs2
21:56 < morpho> just works
21:57 < metavoid> until you pull the power plug and it doesn't
21:57 < tux0r> illumos is actually quite good
21:57 < tux0r> the better version of freebsd (YMMV)
21:57 < rIMpossible> morpho: For home use or small business ok, HA datacenter nope
21:58 < hmjsp> rIMpossible: no clue
21:58 < hmjsp> tux0r: in what way is it better?
21:58 < supaman> well, if openbsd crashes then data loss seems to be a thing https://dataswamp.org/~solene/2024-11-15-why-i-stopped-using-openbsd.html#_Reliability
21:58 < hmjsp> freebsd seems fine so far to me
21:58 < tux0r> hmjsp: more mature, less politics, SMF init, pkgsrc 
21:58 < tux0r> incredibly stable for me
21:59 < morpho> supaman: it can on other filesystems
21:59 < rIMpossible> One of my notebooks has always 2 hickups per day in the morning and it just fsck's and that's it
21:59 < hmjsp> "more mature" what does this mean. "politics" freebsd never struck me as political. what's "SMF init" and what's "pkgsrc"?
21:59 < tux0r> SMF init: solaris's / illumos's init system. pkgsrc: netbsd's and illumos's package manager. politics: google/duckduckgo/kagi freebsd CoC.
21:59 -!- user_with_nouser [~user_with@user/user-with-nouser:54838] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
22:00 < morpho> supaman: https://lwn.net/Articles/954285/
22:00 < tux0r> i don't want to convert anyone. just my 2 cents.
22:00 < morpho> rIMpossible: are you sure the drive is attached ok?
22:00 < sibiria> i haven't had many crashes with openbsd in the ~25 years i've been using it, but the few i've had never resulted in any loss of data
22:00 < morpho> ^
22:00 < rIMpossible> morpho: yes. I think there is a hardware problem with the m/b
22:01 < morpho> rIMpossible: try replacing the cable
22:01 < morpho> sometimes they are very thin ribbon cables that are easy to break
22:02 < rIMpossible> morpho: It started around OpenBSD 6.4/6.5 I should debug it and send a bug report
22:02 < morpho> the only time i have had data loss on obsd was on a laptop with the mentioned broken sata cable
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22:03 < sibiria> shoddy SSDs with slow flash memory fronted by huge RAM cache will lose recent "written" data no matter what OS it runs under
22:03 < rIMpossible> believe me, it is not the cable. but this machine gets exchanged end of year anyway, so I can live with that bug. After hicking, it runs reliably
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22:05 < morpho> good luck
22:05 < hmjsp> tux0r: with init systems, i really don't get the hullabaloo, prolly because my needs are extremely simple. pkg on freebsd is fine so far. in terms of politics, there is no such thing as divorcing an action from political intent, all actions ARE inherently political. the CoC is slightly over the top but it doesn't strike me as alarming, especially with the creep reputation that computery folks have (a reputation that is honestly warranted sometimes, e.g. rms). and
22:05 < hmjsp>  the coc got changed anyhow, which is how these things evolve
22:05 < rIMpossible> morpho: I live with this bug since 6.4/.5 :)
22:05 < ffuentes> hello
22:06 < ffuentes> I'm using OpenBSD 7.7 and I can't install firefox
22:06 < ffuentes> I'm getting an error with gtk
22:07 < ffuentes> "can't install gtk+3-4.24.49 because of libraries"
22:07 < rIMpossible> ffuentes: doas pkg_delete -a && doas pkg_add firefox
22:08 < morpho> 7.7 is an older release
22:08 < ffuentes> thanks
22:09 < ffuentes> I wanna update but wanted a working system before updating
22:09 < rIMpossible> ffuentes: VERY GOOD IDEA
22:10 < morpho> you can read websites in emacs
22:10 < morpho> wdym ;)
22:10 < rIMpossible> lol
22:11 < ffuentes> lol
22:12 < hmjsp> javascript and its consequences have been disastrous for humanity
22:12 < supaman> you can read websites with telnet
22:13 < supaman> but i prefer w3m ;-)
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22:14 < humm> here’s your reminder that telnet is an actual protocol that can very much interfere with HTTP or whatever and that for simply having a process read and write to a TCP connection you want nc(1) instead
22:16 < morpho> i just read the fbsd coc and it seems pretty normal, but its been updated as i understand
22:17 < hmjsp> https://web.archive.org/web/20180213113526/https://www.freebsd.org/internal/code-of-conduct.html
22:17 < hmjsp> this is the old one that stirred the drama it seems
22:20 < morpho> twas a different era
22:20 < hmjsp> the "worst" thing about the old one is that "virtual hugs" are equated to harrasment. which is a bit over the top but im not sure what anyone can say about the rest. do you WANT to stalk or harrass someone. the backlash is bizarre. and whiteboys denying systemic oppression is... hilarious to say the least
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22:21 < morpho> i can see why that was needed in 2018 somehow
22:21 < morpho> internet changes
22:22 < hmjsp> im too young to know what u mean tbh, but i can imagine spaces being less inclusive/more creepy back then if that's what u mean
22:22 < morpho> never came into it tbh
22:23 < thrig> https://pbfcomics.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/PBF-Hugbot.png
22:23 < ffuentes> well I'm updating to 7.8
22:23 < ffuentes> had to install atk and it kept failing
22:23 < hmjsp> right before 7.9 lol
22:24 < morpho> creepyiest places are the discord-polycules lol
22:24 < hmjsp> discord in general...
22:25 < hmjsp> my friend used to catfish old men to laugh at them, they're fucking gross
22:25 < hmjsp> and the sheer amount of them
22:25 < rIMpossible> ffuentes: did deleting unnecessary packages not work?
22:25 < morpho> offtopic, but yes
22:25 < morpho> safe here
22:26 < hmjsp> yeah openbsd irc seems chill
22:29  * supaman chills
22:30 < morpho> under the sea
22:31 < hmjsp> down where it's better
22:32 < morpho> anyway, i was reading about gefs yesterday it has been tested on openbsd
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22:33 < hmjsp> oh??
22:33 < hmjsp> link
22:33 < hmjsp> ?
22:34 < morpho> top secret gossip
22:34 < hmjsp> :(
22:34 < hmjsp> big if true
22:35 < morpho> the dev uses obsd
22:35 < morpho> a lot of the 9front devs do
22:35 < hmjsp> id imagine
22:36 < hmjsp> share the gossip pleaseeee
22:36 < morpho> thats it
22:36 < hmjsp> oh lol
22:36 < hmjsp> speaking of plan9
22:36 < morpho> i just dont have a link or keep irc logs or owt lol
22:36 < marfan_ginger> longtime lurker here, but I'm so hoping for gefs to become a thing on obsd
22:37 < hmjsp> do yall think that the modern tech stack will collapse under its stinking, rotting weight? what will happen afterwards? the current cruft is unbearable
22:37 < morpho> probably churn on
22:37 < hmjsp> and the enshittification is certainly a consequence of capitalism, probably unresolvable without its demise
22:38 < morpho> its not all crap, netflix is a pretty good implementation
22:38 < hmjsp> morpho: surely it would get bad ENOUGH at some point
22:38 < morpho> i dont use or endorse the use of netflix
22:38 < supaman> lol, shithub.us the fragrant git host
22:38 < hmjsp> idk much about netflix tech but... the subscription model plus i heard ads even if u subscribe is pretty awful
22:38 < morpho> but they use freebsd and go
22:39 < hmjsp> i guess
22:39 < hmjsp> the exception makes the rule...
22:39 < morpho> they deliver streaming to millions of people on guis across a multitude of devices
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22:40 < morpho> i couldnt do that lol
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22:40 < hmjsp> lol ofc not
22:40 < hmjsp> that's not really what im thinking about tbh tho
22:41 < supaman> there was this auzzie engineer that designed quite a bit of Netflix tech, forgot his name. One famous video of him shouting at a computer inside a datacenter to measure some oscillations in a hard disk inside the computer
22:41 < hmjsp> the modern web is the biggest culprit, accessibility nightmare and the only tangible reason for upgrading hardware for the average non techy user
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22:41 < hmjsp> that's so silly what
22:41 < hmjsp> does he analyse the sound on the other side or what?
22:42 < supaman> bah, I forgot what he was measuring
22:42 < hmjsp> ToT
22:42 < hmjsp> maybe he's just mad
22:42 < morpho> well mechanical instability can cause misreads
22:42 -!- zoraj [~zoraj@102.113.142.191] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
22:43 < morpho> hmjsp: this is something i think about a lot
22:43 < morpho> the average persons computer is a quad core arm chip with 4-8gb of ram
22:43 < hmjsp> not even
22:43 < morpho> and a 5-7 inch screen
22:44 < supaman> ahh, it was Brendan Gregg
22:44 < supaman> he's brilliant
22:44 < hmjsp> i think we can get by with way less. all a normal person needs a computer for is media storage + consumption, communication and text processing
22:44 < hmjsp> actually writing that out, it's media cosumption that consumes the most power
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22:45 < supaman> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDacjrSCeq4
22:45 < hmjsp> without that, in terms of "purely useful" output, ppl can genuinely get by with 8 bit computers
22:46 < hmjsp> i did buy an 8051 with the intention of experimenting with that as an idea... a modernish, usable computer with minimal resources. text processing and communication, the (imo) most useful things a computer does aside from crunch numbers
22:46 < ffuentes> rIMpossible: no, it didn't. Later I updated python to 3.12 and triee with ports but eventually I got an issue with the atk library and couldn't get around that
22:48 < hmjsp> supaman: that's hilarious
22:48 < hmjsp> i'm gonna shout at my disks once i get my nas running
22:49 < supaman> :-)
22:49 < morpho> you want to reduce your disk vibrations
22:49 < supaman> makes one wonder how he came to find that out :-)
22:50 < hmjsp> i assume he already knew vibrations would be an issue
22:50 < hmjsp> given that the drives are mechanical and all
22:50 < morpho> they use bsd
22:51 < hmjsp> anyhow, nice talking to yall but it's getting late here
22:51 < hmjsp> gn
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22:54 < rIMpossible> ffuentes: Did you try doas pkg_check ?
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23:06 < mischief> how do people normally deal with permission problems when PORTS_PRIVSEP=Yes and you want to e.g. change patches
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23:15 < supaman> mischief: I think make fix-permission takes care of this https://man.openbsd.org/bsd.port.mk#fix-permissions
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23:38 < chilledfrogs> Hi all, this is a bit dumb but I cannot find for the life of me why, even though I have a ulimit -c of unlimited, I cannot coax a crashing program I am trying to port into actually giving a crash dump after a segmentation fault, help?
23:43 < tvtoon> have you tried debugging it, if you want to port may as well get this step
23:45 < chilledfrogs> ...I am trying to debug it by obtaining that crash report
23:45 < chilledfrogs> Getting a simple "Segmentation fault" is not very helpful otherwise
23:50 < thrig> ktrace might indicate system calls going on just before it goes boom
23:50 < supaman> could savecore contain any info?
23:54 < thrig> or crank up the compiler warnings and see if they're relying on undefined behavior that does something predictable on some other OS
23:55 -!- ephapticpulse [~user@user/ephapticpulse] has quit [Quit: ERC 5.5.0.29.1 (IRC client for GNU Emacs 29.3)]
23:57 < chilledfrogs> It's in Rust, not C
23:57 < chilledfrogs> My understanding of savecore is that it mostly pertains to kernel issues within base system usage...?
23:57 < chilledfrogs> ktrace did something, thanks, looking through it
--- Log closed Sun May 03 00:00:22 2026