--- Log opened Sun May 03 00:00:22 2026
00:03 < supaman> from man 5 core "Programs which are started with either the set-user-ID or set-group-ID bits set, or which change their UID or GID after starting, will normally not dump core."
00:05 < chilledfrogs> That would indeed explain
00:05 < chilledfrogs> So am I just out of luck then? Because this program does, in fact, privdrop
00:06 < chilledfrogs> Ah wait, ok, got the sysctl
00:06 < supaman> :-)
00:06 < chilledfrogs> Thanks <3<3
00:07 < chilledfrogs> Umm... Hmm
00:07 < chilledfrogs> Still no dice
00:10 < supaman> damn, oh well, then I'm out of ideas
00:11 < chilledfrogs> Even tried cding into the directory it usually writes to after privdrop
00:12 < supaman> does the user the program privdrops to have write permission to the directory the program is started from?
00:12 < chilledfrogs> That's what I said I tried, yes
00:12 < supaman> ah, right, sorry
00:13 < chilledfrogs> Np, but yeah, I thought of that one after the fact, no difference
00:14 < supaman> well, 02:14 here, hitting the sack
00:14 < chilledfrogs> Same time here, night night
00:14 < supaman> good luck with debugging
00:16 < chilledfrogs> Thanks, I'll surely need it
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02:15 < mischief> yay, got my first ever driver working
02:16 < tux0r> which one?
02:17 < mischief> hardware prng driver for spacemit k1
02:17 < mischief> http://p.offblast.org/nfzrvglg
02:17 < tux0r> oh. nice!
02:18 < mischief> mostly copied from stfrng.c, but i did have to do some legwork with the device tree and clock/reset driver
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08:35 < sandbag> for setting up wireguard, do i need /etc/wireguard/wg0.conf (assuming wg0 interface) or do i only need to configure /etc/hostname.wg0?
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08:41 < lts> Just /etc/hostname.wg0
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08:45 < sandbag> lts: this is my config: https://paste.opensuse.org/pastes/4eac80e91466 when i try to enable pf with "block all" rule, i lose internet
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08:53 < sandbag> any idea anyone? this only happens after wireguard setup
08:55 < buinb> sandbag, I suppose you need to allow your wg daemon to talk out to its other endpoints
08:57 < sandbag> buinb: which rule should i add for that?
08:59 < buinb> I don't use wireguard so I'm not sure, but I guess something like "pass out quick on egress from (egress) proto udp to $endpoint port $endpoint_port"
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09:00 < buinb> Well, instead of egress rather use your actual egress interface, I suppose that the wg interfaces are put in egress too if they go out to non local networks
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09:04 < sandbag> (egress) replace this with eth interface?
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09:05 < sandbag> ok nvm i rebooted and now its work
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09:34 < sandbag> is there any way to slow down or terminate any external nmap scans with pf?
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09:39 < quinq> yes
09:40 < quinq> look at packet rate
09:40 < sandbag> quinq: how?
09:40 < sandbag> oh
09:40 < sandbag> is pf programmable for that? measure packet rate
09:41 < quinq> Yes, in a basic way
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09:45 < sandbag> quinq: looking at just p/s is hard to detect a scan. is there any fingerprinting i can do?
09:46 < quinq> Look for fingerprint in the doc
09:46 < quinq> But I'm not sure it's used a lot
09:47 < quinq> At least not for actively blocking traffic, maybe for working around limitations
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10:02 < tangentnet> quinq, try: set block-policy drop
10:02 < tangentnet> block in quick proto tcp flags FUP/FUP
10:02 < tangentnet> block in quick proto tcp flags FSRPAU/FSRPAU
10:02 < tangentnet> block in quick proto tcp flags /F
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10:05 < quinq> tangentnet, try the other quinq ;)
10:05 < tangentnet> How many are there?
10:08  * tangentnet sets text size to 16
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10:19 < quinq> tangentnet, I meant sandbag :>
10:20  * tangentnet can read now. Sorry about that.
10:20 < quinq> no prob
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14:13 < broke> Hello was trying to control bluetooth as in to disable it, any help? thanks
14:18 < broke> sorry be right back.
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14:20 < lts> broke: OpenBSD has done that for you already
14:20 < broke> hmm, is there a way to confirm that?
14:21 < lts> Considering it was removed from OpenBSD in 2014, it's pretty confirmed
14:22 < broke> oh right bluetooth was straight up not implemented in bsd
14:22 < broke> openbsd*
14:22 < broke> I'm dying
14:22 < broke> I have one of those laptops with outside led indicators that indicates wifi and bluetooth and all that
14:23 < broke> and so, bluetooth's led is still on so I was thinking something's wrong
14:23 < lts> You can probably disable it on that level from BIOS
14:23 < broke> right, I see
14:24 < lts> It's not doing anything with OpenBSD anyway
14:24 < broke> oh ok, sorry for the silly question
14:24 < lts> Not at all :-) 
14:24 < broke> I'm just kind of new, been only a week coming to openbsd
14:25 < broke> nonetheless I'm loving openbsd
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14:40 < ffuentes> finally I could install firefox in OpenBSD 7.8. I still wonder why I couldn't in 7.7
14:40 < ffuentes> at least my system wasn't corrupt
14:43 < morpho> 50% of the donations go towards not developing bluetooth support
14:44 < morpho> i think i saw somebody used an esp32 as a bluetooth dongle to openbsd
14:45 < lts> A usb dongle can work too https://xosc.org/bluetooth.html
14:45 < lts> *for audio
14:45 < morpho> similar idea
14:46 < broke> morpho: well that's good to know becuase I can never understand why bluetooth exists :\
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14:46 < broke> well mostly for wireless earphones/headphones/pods people though I guess
14:47 < broke> why must one hate wires? :P
14:48 < morpho> radio engineers are a secretive bunch
14:49 < lts> "Those who understand wireless prefer wired"
14:49 < broke> where from?
14:49 < lts> Quite a common saying, I've found
14:50 < broke> yeah, I can relate a lot to that saying
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14:50 < morpho> it is magic
14:50 < sibiria> without getting into whatever caveats, i really like the freedom bluetooth gives me for headphones, and i've never really had any struggles with it
14:51 < lts> Wifi and audio communities seem to agree the most. Of course some applications are better wireless, e.g. a TV remote
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14:51 < broke> that uses a infrared
14:51 < lts> I don't see wires used with infrared
14:51 < lts> :-) 
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14:51 < morpho> audio itself can be used for wireless
14:52 < broke> err..... yeah true, what I tried to mean that I feel like there's a distinctive difference
14:52 < morpho> most speakers can play sounds out of the spectrum of human hearing
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14:55 < broke> ah, speakers are a different set of audio people.
14:55 < broke> that's how I feel
14:55 < morpho> i think some phones do that to detect other phones in a room or something
14:55 < broke> sibiria: well, the main problem is that you bought a bluetooth headphone or a headphone that can be converted to bluetooth?
14:56 < broke> meaning a headphone that can be both wired and wireless
14:56 < broke> I like those ones
14:56 < sibiria> broke: dedicated bluetooth headphones (with headset functionality)
14:56 < broke> :(
14:57 < broke> well not to be rude, but I've not heard good reviews of them on price vs performance
14:57 < broke> as far as I've exprienced
14:58 < sibiria> the ones i have are excellent, and cheap. surprisingly linear and neutral reproduction. great battery life, too, at 40-50 hours per charge
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14:58 < sibiria> best €40 i spent on personal audio
14:59 < broke> 40-50 hours on 40 EUR? there's some catch
14:59 < sibiria> no catch
14:59 < sibiria> modern BT in them, too, so they're not bound to awful 8 khz sample rate when used as a headset
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15:00 < broke> hmm, I'm kinda interested in this, what's the name of the headset?
15:00 < broke> headphone*
15:01 < sibiria> sony wh-ch520
15:01 < broke> damn sony made cheap bt headphones? since when?
15:01 < broke> or probably I've only ever seen their ones that go over 100
15:02 < sibiria> they probably cost 15-20% more now because of inflation and such. i've had mine for a couple of years
15:02 < sibiria> very affordable all the same
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15:16 < broke> Damn, there is actually no catch, wow, and its probably like 10 EUR more now
15:17 < sibiria> i got curious and had a look, and they're actually just €30 here in sweden now
15:17 < broke> so that thing deflated?
15:17 < broke> hmmmmm
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15:18 < sibiria> maybe their costs were worse 3 years ago, who knows
15:21 < broke> Well, in any case, the thing with these headphones and cutting costs is where you probably don't know instantly, so there's some nitpicks, as I've read about that one from audio reviewers
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15:21 < sibiria> i feel like sony always take great care and pride in the technical quality of their stuff
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15:25 < ffuentes> do you recommend another terminal for cwm besides xterm?
15:25 < hmjsp> not sure what window manager has to do with terminal... but xterm seems good enough, with tmux that is
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15:26 < thrig> one could custom compile a st (for fewer features) or install urxvt (for more features)
15:27 < broke> I'm a st user :)
15:28 < ffuentes> I know but something that goes along the minimalistic lines of cwm  and openbsd
15:28 < ffuentes> I've used st, I'll try urxvt
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15:29 < hmjsp> minimalism for the sake of minimalism is a bit silly imo, tho it is fun sometimes. i'd argue it's more minimalist to use xterm purely because it already exists in openbsd base
15:30 < hmjsp> openbsd has the most sane base system so i tend to try to stick to using base when i can, very good for stability also
15:32 < thrig> xterm is quite bloated with features, and openbsd disables sixel by default
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15:34 < oldlaptop> ISTR tek mode is disabled too
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15:36 < thrig> historical baggage from the "moar features!!1!" era
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15:47 < ssm_> techtronix emulation is also disabled, which was vindicated in an exploit I read a couple weeks ago
15:48 < ssm_> thrig: moar features era? I think we're at the height of that with "shove everything into a browser" and "everything bots" but I digress
15:49 < ssm_> oh oldlaptop said it first
15:49 < thrig> back when X11 was featuritusing
15:51 < ffuentes> minimalism is practical, and openbsd excels on it
15:52 < lts> Complexity grows exponentially -> KISS is good
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16:09 < broke> oh cool, a conversation I love, I only came to openbsd because of minimalist sane defaults, with dwm and st on top (modified ofc)
16:12 < broke> I don't think there is anything more minimal than openbsd in either the BSD or the Linux worlld
16:12 < broke> world*
16:12 < broke> from the kernel to the userspace to the /usr and /usr/local and the /usr/X11R6 stuff
16:15 < broke> ffuentes: well one of the things with those terminals is that, configuring them technically is more difficult.
16:15 < broke> which st excels at, and I'm pretty sure no one has one same similar program of st in any way, because of how the suckless system works
16:16 < broke> your st, is different from my st
16:17 < broke> And well, they had the perfect answer to "bloated!"
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16:36 < ffuentes> yeah I used st for a while 
16:36 < broke> what do you use now?
16:37 < ffuentes> right now here? just xterm but I used xfce4-terminal before I think
16:38 < broke> is it just what is said about about openbsd's xterm being a sane default as well?
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16:43 < birddogg> been 12 years since i ran openbsd,  what do you guys use as a sane gui for noobs,  xfce?
16:43 < broke> I think WMs are more sane
16:43 < broke> people here probably likes cwm
16:43 < birddogg> cwm is like i3?
16:44 < izder456> https://fe.disroot.org/@izder456/posts/B5vRBIezADjevsZSC0
16:44 < birddogg> installing xfce,  i'll try cwm next though,  installing on old p52
16:45 < broke> are you an old i3 user?
16:46 < broke> Well no, i3 is technically its own kind of WM
16:46 < jmcunx> birddogg: any issues with the p52 ?
16:46 < birddogg> yeah i've used i3 beforeyes
16:46 < birddogg> jmcunx: not yet, installing xfce on tty 
16:46 < broke> there's also bspwm which is like i3
16:46 < broke> I don't know if it is openbsd
16:47 < jmcunx> birddogg: thanks, that is good news
16:47 < broke> s/is/& in/
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17:10 < birddogg> jmcunx: working just fine,  not tested wifi but all seems to work :)
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17:16 < izder456> broke, bspwm is in the package collection. a friend of mine set their core duo laptop up with it
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18:01 < ojin> i3/xterm makes a nice pairing. running both on my thinkpad nano without issue.
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18:08 < birddogg> ojin: x1 nano?
18:09 < birddogg> what do you guys use for password managers on openbsd?  was trying keepassxc + yubikey but there is hid limitations,  ya'll just use password-store etc?
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18:14 < sibiria> i use keepassxc
18:16 < lts> KeePassXC is not doing very great as a project at the moment btw. They're stuck on QT5 which has been at EOL of last support almost a year now
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18:17 < ojin> birddogg: yes x1 nano gen 1. 
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18:18 < sibiria> it's a shame they use qt at all. half the application footprint is qt
18:18 < birddogg> yeah im looking at password-store + yubikey i think
18:19 < birddogg> the x1 are great,  got a gen9 not the nano tho
18:19 < ojin> I switched to kpcli recently, it has been reliable
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18:26 < sibiria> ojin: can it handle v4 databases?
18:26 < sibiria> the port says it can, but the project homepage only mentions v1 and v2
18:28 < ojin> sibiria: version 3 or earlier I believe ymmv
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19:49 < kiliro> hello
19:50 < kiliro> is there a bsd version which ships without nonfree firmware?  or a way to avoid its installation on the system?
19:51 < kiliro> thank you for making and servicing openbsd, by the way
19:52 < broke> iirc if your hardware require nonfree firmware you have no choice.
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19:57 < kiliro> I want that.
19:58 < broke> ?
19:58 < CosmicDJ> kiliro: disconnect from the internet https://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq4.html "For licensing reasons, some firmware cannot be directly distributed with OpenBSD. The fw_update(8) tool will automatically download and install any missing firmware, but this requires a working internet connection."
19:58 < kiliro> CosmicDJ: thank you
19:59 < kiliro> so you have to use a network device that works with free software to do it
19:59 < kiliro> but you can do it!  that is great, thanks
20:00 < broke> yes, your machine needs to have 0 or some that doesn't even matter nonfree hardware, I think.
20:00 < kiliro> I would have to either use ethernet or use a free device
20:00 < kiliro> I did not understand your last sentence, broke 
20:00 < broke> WiFi? there's fully free wifi cards out there
20:00 < broke> kiliro: sorry, I wasn't able to say it clearly myself
20:00 < kiliro> yes...not a lot
20:01 < broke> yes, not a lot
20:01 < kiliro> but there are
20:01 < broke> you can also use usb wifi if you find those network cards to be too expensive, that's what I hear some people have done
20:02 < kiliro> it is terrible to use usb
20:02 < broke> I agree
20:02 < kiliro> the port is too fragile
20:02 < kiliro> and takes more energy, it seems
20:02 < kiliro> but it is the way I connect now
20:03 < broke> all that, yes, so you just need a free wifi card
20:03 < kiliro> that, I have no other choice....than running nonfree firmware
20:03 < kiliro> well, I could buy an internal or connect the ethernet to a repeater
20:04 < kiliro> which I do have
20:04 < kiliro> that seems better
20:04 < kiliro> the only problem I would have by installing openbsd is the same I have now with gnu
20:05 < kiliro> that one of the wifi providers requires openning some web page before letting you communicate with the world
20:05 < kiliro> so the repeater does not work
20:05 < broke> public wifi?
20:05 < kiliro> for that
20:06 < kiliro> yes!
20:06 < kiliro> it sucks
20:06 < broke> err right, those exists
20:06 < broke> thought those I found raree
20:06 < broke> rare*
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20:06 < broke> people nowadays rather prefer mobile networks
20:06 < kiliro> I have the wifi which works without that captive portal most of the time, though
20:07 < kiliro> that is what I have for the good connection
20:07 < kiliro> but it takes a lot of energy to run it and it sometimes fails
20:07 < kiliro> besides that it is not secure
20:07 < kiliro> well, better than IR
20:07 < kiliro> but still insecure
20:08 < kiliro> do you agree?
20:14 < broke> damn I'm sorry but I think I'm not worthy of this discussion. From what I can make out... basically your repeater fails on those networks? not sure about the security, I don't see the entire picture, but just me, there's probably people who here can you tell you about that better than me.
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20:20 < sibiria> afaik there are currently no known unpatchable vulnerabilities in wpa2 or wpa3
20:21 < sibiria> deauth attacks on wpa2 are annoying but they aren't necessarily a way into the network
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20:24 < kiliro> oh...good to know
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20:39 < vortexx> console for every OS is necessary
20:39 < vortexx> err
20:40 < vortexx> disregard that
20:41 < joepublic> a terminal with subtly different colors and fonts for each environment helps :)
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21:09 < kiliro> I do think that gui makes things more complicated for the user
21:09 < kiliro> even if it seems the contrary to be
21:09 < kiliro> because the simpler the interface, the easier to know what to do
21:10 < kiliro> the more icons makes it more difficult
21:10 < kiliro> even if icons are easier than text
21:10 < kiliro> but a character is like an icon also
21:10 < kiliro> so why use icons at all?
21:10 < kiliro> sorry
21:11 < kiliro> wrong chatroom
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21:13 < leah> curious
21:13 < leah> https://github.com/kusumi/openbsd_hammer2
21:14 < leah> i haven't tried it yet but i've been looking at the code
21:14 < leah> i might try it. would have to compile it and modify the kernel on my test machine
21:14 < leah> ffs is literally the only thing i really intensely dislike in openbsd
21:14 < leah> is there an effort to integrate this hammer2 port?
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21:16 < leah> i can't realistically daily drive obsd on my main machine, due to fears of dataloss in ffs on syscrash or powercut
21:16 < leah> of course, i can hash data nad do backups, and i would do this regardless
21:17 < leah> i might see what i can do with this and contact that dev. set up a test machine with this port
21:17 < leah> seems it was lazt patched for openbsd 7.7
21:18 < leah> newer vfs changes would have to be accounted for to update this
21:21 < sibiria> i've never lost data on a crash or outage
21:23 < leah> probably fine in most cases, but the lack of journaling combined with removal of softdeps is dubious to me
21:23 < sibiria> openbsd isn't write-cache-y like linux
21:23 < leah> data loss for me would cause legal issues. such as: tax receipts going missing
21:23 < sibiria> softdeps *did* result in those problems, because of the deferred writes
21:25 < sibiria> ffs is predominantly (or wholly?) synchronous, which is why it's so slow to write
21:25 < leah> this would likely fix my torrenting issues too. i'm pretty sure ffs performance problems on lots of small disk writes is why i can't torrent at 1gbps on obsd
21:26 < leah> assuming i'm correct, a mitigation with ffs is to patch transmission, to make *it* implement lots of caching in memory while downloading. then write in bulk
21:26 < uwharrie> there doesn't appear to be much overlap in the people that think openbsd needs softdeps/journaling/hammer2/zfs/etc and the people that think it's a good use of their time to work on them
21:26 < leah> lots of programs like that don't optimise in this way, because they make largely linux-centric file system assumptions
21:27 < tvtoon> remove libevent, I tell you
21:27 < pardis> it's not wholly synchronous, which is why there is a sync mount option
21:28 < pardis> McKusick has a good talk on the history of why it does things the way it does, and why softdep helped (and helps, on FreeBSD)
21:28 < pardis> but fears of data loss are entirely unfounded, it's slow precisely *because* it is optimised for avoiding data loss at all costs
21:29 < pardis> if you want it to be faster you can mount async and then you do risk data loss
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21:29 < leah> more testing is needed. i'm literally going to do this:
21:29 < leah> make a system with a git repo, and hash everything as well
21:29 < leah> lots of files of various sizes
21:30 < leah> and i will just have tests that write lots of random data, then update hashes and such,
21:30 < leah> and i will intentionally pull the plug
21:30 < leah> keep stressing it like that, pulling the plug
21:30 < leah> seeing what breaks after fsck
21:31 < leah> manual fsck is also a bit dubious on servers. like. if i go do a lecture somewhere in germany, i can't have my server be offline.
21:31 < leah> my fears may be unfounded though. i'm going off of what i'm told by other users.
21:31 < leah> but i'm going to stress test it myself.
21:32 < leah> all i've done so far is my librewolf port. on non-production machines.
21:32 < pardis> if you don't do a sync before pulling the plug, you *might* lose whatever data was still in buffers, but that's true of any filesystem that does in-memory buffering on any OS
21:32 < leah> while i continue assimulating openbsd (reading manuals and testing things), i will keep stress testing it.
21:32 < pardis> and softdep wouldn't help with that, in fact it would make it worse because you have even more in buffers
21:32 < leah> well, for my purposes, mounting with sync seems prudent
21:32 < leah> and yes i read that earlier, in the ffs manual
21:33 < leah> (read about the sync option)
21:33 < sibiria> then you must only do lectures in Walthampumpkinssqueekhamshire and not in Salzfressploppingheim
21:33 < sibiria> for fast fsck
21:33 < pardis> mounting sync sounds like a good way to make git feel like cvs
21:34 < leah> so long as i keep production systems on stable releasse, it should be ok
21:34 < leah> i run old thinkpads, which have batteries, and i also have a large UPS
21:34 < leah> power loss isn't a problem
21:34 < pardis> what are you talking about? not like OpenBSD has experimental changes to ffs in -current, that's why it still has a 40-year-old filesystem
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21:35 < leah> well hammer2 seems perfect
21:35 < pardis> not that running -stable is a bad idea, it just seems incredibly unlikely to make any difference at all to data resilience
21:35 < leah> but yeah i guess none of the current obsd devs feel the need for their own uses, to integrate the port
21:35 < leah> that's why i intend to do the work myself. i'll study that repo more, and get in touch with its dev at a later date
21:36 < leah> obsd is pretty rock solid. unless maybe buggy drivers on some newer machines.
21:36 < leah> if you're running something a few years old it should be fine. depends what you're doing.
21:36 < leah> and you can mitigate power loss
21:37 < leah> i tested my UPS. with monitors turned off, my computers run for hours before turning off.
21:38 < leah> my fears are theoretical
21:39 < sibiria> xfs would be perfect. but gnu
21:39 < leah> i don't know much about xfs
21:39 < sibiria> gpl*
21:39 < sibiria> fast, true and tried, also decades under its belt
21:39 < leah> i mostly avoid it, because the context thhere is linux. and i boot computers with coreboot and a grub payload, when using linux.
21:40 < leah> and grub's xfs support is constantly buggy, at all times.
21:40 -!- RSCASTILHO2024 [RSCASTILHO@user/RSCASTILHO2024] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:40 < leah> (i use grub as a coreboot payload, but it can read luks directly. so i can encrypt /boot)
21:40 < pardis> can easily use ext4 for /boot and xfs for everything else on Linux, at the risk of being off-topic
21:41 < leah> actually, that's something i'm interested in working on for my openbsd adventures
21:41 < leah> run openbsd bootloader as a coreboot payload
21:41 < leah> leave no unencrypted sections on my ssd.
21:41 < leah> raid1c all the way
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21:42 < leah> obsd can be a bit flaky on some coreboot machines
21:43 < leah> because vendor bioses have lots of things in them that coreboot doesn't implement
21:43 < leah> linux and e.g. freebsd implement all kinds of hacks to mitigate buggy bioses
21:43 < leah> openbsd is more conservative
21:44 < leah> the coreboot devs just send patches to linux and call it a day
21:45 < leah> however i've had no issues with openbsd on coreboot, on these machines: hp elitebook 2170p, thinkpad x280 and dell optiplex 9020 sff
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21:45 < leah> on a sandybridge machine, em0 was broken on obsd
21:46 < leah> i boot it using seabios payload. haven't tested uefi yet (edk2) mostly
21:47 < leah> i have booted openbsd with u-boot on x86. it has a minimal uefi implementation, and can be used as a coreboot payload
21:47 < leah> sorry, i'm rambling
21:48 < leah> but yeah if all my tests are successful, i think i'll be daily driving obsd on my main at some time later this year
21:48 < leah> the main thing i like about openbsd is that it never changes. whatever i know today will still be valid in 10 years. and -current is typically stable. you can run the latest code reliably in most cases.
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21:49 < pardis> that's also simply wrong
21:49 < leah> principle of least surprise
21:49 < pardis> OpenBSD has breaking changes quite often, and will certainly have several in a 10-year period of time
21:50 < leah> openbsd doesn't arbitrarily change something for the sake of it. it's incremental
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21:52 < leah> i learned to use linux in the 2000s. most of that knowledge is obsolete now.
21:56 < leah> modern openbsd is much closer to the linux i knew in 2006
21:56 < uwharrie> except for that parts that've changed since then
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21:59 < sibiria> leah: i didn't fully catch everything, but did you actually try the hammer2 kernel/sys patch you linked earlier?
21:59 < leah> not yet, i just now it exists
22:00 < leah> i assume many vfs changes have been made since obsd 7.7, and that repo was last updated for obsd 7.7
22:00 < leah> so... if it worked on 7.7 great, but i assume it'll be broken on 7.8 and current
22:02 < oldlaptop> linux, the kernel, is almost *fanatically* committed to stability; openbsd feels free to break ABI compatibility in any random release
22:02 < oldlaptop> (usually not as hard as the time_t flag day)
22:02 < leah> this latter aspect is imo a feature, not a bug
22:03 < oldlaptop> time_t is an excellent example of the tradeoffs involved.
22:03 < leah> obsd patches userspace, instead of having a no-regression policy like linux
22:03 < leah> this means that they can keep the kernel clean
22:03 < leah> that's why the ports system exists
22:03 < hmjsp> leah: was talking about filesystems yesterday also xD
22:04 < uwharrie> the ports system can and often does break when changes like that happen
22:04 < hmjsp> also curious if hammerfs, zfs or gefs or any solid and fast filesystem can be ported, but i have no fs experience
22:04 < leah> that is why ports@openbsd.org exists :)
22:04 < leah> https://github.com/kusumi/openbsd_hammer2
22:04 < hmjsp> got told that gefs apparently works on openbsd, but is still being developed
22:04 < leah> but i haven't tried it yet
22:05 < leah> it's not like you can just use it in an installation.
22:05 < leah> you'd have to patch the installer
22:05 < leah> and since openbsd doesn't integrate it  yet, you'd have to recompile, re-basing this code on each sysupdate
22:05 < leah> and place the files yourself for update
22:06 < leah> how uncanny. i just had this conversation on another channel, and someone mentioned gefs there too.
22:06 < hmjsp> i'd defo wanna try when i have time... which should be soon as summer comes round. but i find it a bit overwhelming to know where to start given that my osdev knowledge is very much novice and i have no fs experience
22:06 < hmjsp> lolol
22:06 < hmjsp> small world
22:07 < leah> https://fosdem.org/2026/schedule/event/F8QZJP-gefs_a_good_enough_file_system_for_plan_9/
22:07 < leah> i was at fosdem this year but didn't know this was a thing
22:08 < hmjsp> ive installed freebsd recently to make a nas so will be exposed to a high level understanding of what a "good" filesystem could/should be
22:08 < leah> i don't like fbsd
22:08 < leah> too complicated
22:08 < hmjsp> i didn't do much past install but it does seem a bit more complicated than obsd at least yeah
22:08 < hmjsp> it's weird cause they also are transitioning away from using file sets for system install... and just using pkg for everything
22:09 < leah> obsd and netbsd are my fav unix systems
22:09 < hmjsp> i've yet to try netbsd, only tried linux and obsd and a tiny bit of plan9. obsd is by far my fav but it lacks filesystem + speed
22:09 < sibiria> i tried netbsd in the early 2000s after having used openbsd for a year
22:10 < sibiria> my butt fell ill, and then detached from my corpus
22:10 < sibiria> never netbsd
22:10 < quinq> leah, it's definitely a thing and in use
22:10 < hmjsp> ToT
22:10 < hmjsp> what was so bad about it
22:10 < leah> gefs is tested on obsd?
22:10 < leah> talking to quinq 
22:10 < sibiria> no idea. it was almost 25 years ago i tested it. i'm sure it's fantastic today
22:11 < hmjsp> fair lol
22:11 < oldlaptop> xen (for which netbsd has more or less first class support) is pretty cool
22:11 < hmjsp> https://liber8bits.com/eeepc.html
22:11 < hmjsp> i got an eeepc recently and my plan is to try every OS under the sun on it
22:11 < quinq> leah, sorry I thought you were talking about GEFS itself, on OpenBSD that's a bit early afaik :)
22:12 < leah> well hammer2 is the one i know about
22:12 < leah> from dfly bsd
22:12 < hmjsp> tried openbsd but havent made a post on it yet... unfortunately wifi is broken on it (seems to be fixable by looking at mailing lists but haven't had time to tinker with code) and it's too slow to be usable
22:12 < hmjsp> netbsd is next on the list, i reckon it will be the best system on it in terms of speed + usability (linux might be faster but netbsd i reckon wins in usability)
22:13 < leah> eh
22:13 < leah> i tried to make sense of netbsd ports (pkgsrc)
22:13 < leah> and updating to current
22:13 < leah> it's more complicated than obsd
22:13 < leah> and netbsd includes a lot more stuff in base that seems redundant
22:14 < leah> its kernel design is interesting, but i just reach for obsd when i want a bsd
22:14 < hmjsp> well, if it's faster then a slight compromise in simplicity is acceptable
22:14 < hmjsp> openbsd is unusable on that laptop, even xterm takes a couple of seconds to open
22:14 < leah> the other BSDs don't have as much of a security focus
22:14 < sibiria> well, the eeepc is horrifically old and was even in its infancy pretty underpowered
22:15 < leah> but i actually disregard openbsd security entirely
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22:15 < leah> they focus on it. but that to me is a side effect of their development style
22:15 < leah> to me obsd is just a super conservative os that tries to de-bloat code as much as possible
22:15 < hmjsp> leah: yeah, for this case fortunately i don't really need it as i plan to use it as a writing device plus it just looks cuteeee
22:15 -!- chilledfrogs [~chilledfr@176-133-210-176.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
22:15 < hmjsp> so whatever is fastest
22:16 < hmjsp> sibiria: true, but it's still USABLE
22:16 < hmjsp> for word processing
22:16 < leah> it has a general focus on code correctness
22:16 < hmjsp> and text only net access
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22:16 < hmjsp> i think it will be nice to test how stuff i use/write runs on something underpowered, to put it into perspective
22:16 < leah> what wait
22:16 < leah> lol what the fuck
22:16 < leah> https://fosdem.org/2026/schedule/event/F8QZJP-gefs_a_good_enough_file_system_for_plan_9/
22:16 < leah> when someone mentioned gefs, i was like, ok, let's look that up. so this is their fosdem video
22:17  * oldlaptop remembers all the buzz about "the apple netbook"
22:17 < leah> i wasn't paying much attention visually, i was just listening
22:17 < leah> then i saw the libreboot logo in the corner of my eye
22:17 < leah> lol what
22:17 < leah> i had to blink twice and re-check
22:17 < leah> at 14 minutes and 40 seconds he's booting his machine, to show some stuff for the talk
22:17 < leah> and it's a libreboot machine. lol
22:17 < leah> that's libreboot's grub payload
22:17 < leah> this just made my day
22:18 < hmjsp> leah: re security: yeah, good design is secure design, and vice versa. it's no wonder that openbsd is so usable
22:18 < sibiria> hmjsp: is it the AMD version?
22:18 < leah> security *features* are a thing too
22:18 < hmjsp> sibiria: nope, it's a celeron afaik
22:18 < hmjsp> lemme check my notes
22:18 < leah> like, the various mitigations implemented
22:18 < leah> but to me obsd's main benefit is just on auditing for bugs
22:18 < leah> the same bug can be a security flaw or not, in a given piece of code, depending on the context and threat model
22:19 < hmjsp> sibiria: nvm, i didn't write down the model so i'd need to dig it up. what i did find in my notes tho is that it's a 900mhz cpu by the spec, but hw.cpuspeed=631 on openbsd
22:19 < hmjsp> which might explain slowness, but doesn't explain why it's not 900mhz in the first place
22:20 < hmjsp> leah: very true
22:20 < hmjsp> wait leah are you a libreboot dev?
22:20 < leah> i'm *the* dev
22:21 < hmjsp> oh!
22:21 < leah> i am its creator
22:21 < hmjsp> that's so cool :)
22:21 < hmjsp> i never got round to installing it, since the machine that can run it (macbook 2,1) is broken and every time i fix it... it just breaks again
22:21 < leah> i'm watching the gefs talk and 14:40 into the video, the speaker is booting a machine, and it's libreboot
22:21 < hmjsp> silly display
22:21 < leah> i wasn't expecting it, so it made me happy and excited
22:21 < hmjsp> yayy :3
22:23 < leah> and......
22:23 < leah> they're booting plan9 in seabios
22:23 < leah> that's amazing. i had no idea it works. i never tested plan9 myself
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22:24 < hmjsp> it seems really cool
22:25 < quinq> You can just execute 9front bootloader, like any other bootloader
22:26 < leah> it's not that simple
22:26 < quinq> Oh yes it is
22:26 < leah> on the machines lb supports, it uses coreboot's native video initialisation, when running intel graphics, which is used on every current laptop
22:26 < leah> coreboot's native init does not fully implement int10h bios interrupts
22:27 < leah> most vga modes are buggy, and you should not expect to reliably switch modes for example
22:27 < leah> linux and bsd work because they have drm/kms
22:27 < leah> which bypasses the need for vgabios interrupts
22:28 < mischief> if you have a lot of time to waste, try out 9front
22:28 < leah> it starts in one mode and starts there
22:28 < leah> so.... most bsd bootloaders expect text mode. and will try to use vga modes. on freebsd you have to override it and configure kms
22:28 < leah> netbsd and openbsd enable kms by default
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22:29 < leah> over on linux, we tell people to change grub's video output mode to "console" (text mode)
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22:30 < leah> most of those interrrupts have not been reverse engineered
22:30 -!- crash_ [~crash_@h-176-10-196-24.A980.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openbsd
22:30 < leah> because there's so many. and kms is good enouggh. and now we have efifb and gop (edk2) so meh
22:31 -!- mexen [uid495612@user/mexen] has quit []
22:31 < quinq> I'm not sure when it tries to switch modes though
22:31 -!- joe_ [~joe@71.70.58.136] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
22:32 < leah> er, but yeah most oses don't work graphically
22:32 < leah> like, good luck running reactos
22:32 < leah> haiku works in efi mode
22:32 < quinq> What's that got to do with 9front
22:33 -!- chilledfrogs [~chilledfr@rsa59-h05-176-133-210-176.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #openbsd
22:34 < quinq> “30 years of ReactOS”, nice, still being developped
22:36 < leah> well gefs seems interesting
22:36 < leah> if this is / will become stable and goes in openbsd, that's great
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22:38 < leah> unrelated, and equally off-topic, i recently learned of a research project called CHERI
22:39 -!- tok [~user@user/tok] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:39 < leah> which aims to implement memory safety in hardware. they use freebsd as a base system, and there's some work for it in linux, on suitable hardware
22:39 < hmjsp> sounds fancy
22:39 < leah> using this in the future, when it goes mainstream, allong with ecc ram and a good file system, would be great
22:39 -!- hwpplayer1 [~hwpplayer@user/hwpplayer1] has quit [Quit: sleep time take care]
22:40 < leah> https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/research/security/ctsrd/cheri/
22:40 < leah> Capability Hardwer Endanced RISC Instructions
22:40 < leah> it's their own thing
22:40 < leah> british government funding
22:40 < hmjsp> im not tryna downplay the usefulness of such features, but i feel the lack of security in software is more structural than it is technological
22:41 < quinq> leah, stop typing from your phone
22:41 < leah> ?
22:41 < quinq> “Hardwer Endanced” ;)
22:41 < hmjsp> like these features would be cool ON TOP of restructuring of software development... or rather restructuring of property relations overall
22:41 < leah> Hardware*
22:41 < leah> i am typing from a mechanical keyboard, on a full desktop computer
22:42 < leah> but my brain has autocorrect
22:42 < quinq> The Endanced part was more funny ;)
22:42 < quinq> \o\
22:42 < leah> Enhanced*
22:42 -!- zoraj_ [~zoraj@102.113.186.0] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
22:43 < leah> anyway yeah cambridge is revolutionising computer computer
22:43 < leah> or something
22:43 < leah> computer security*
22:43 < hmjsp> it'll probably me similar to ecc, but probably even more niche
22:43 < leah> fine i'll go to sleep instead of being tired in #openbsd
22:43 < quinq> Sweet dreams leah :)
22:43 < hmjsp> security doesn't break even with production costs for consumers
22:44 < leah> but yeah ffs sucks
22:44 < hmjsp> it is getting late tbh
22:44 < hmjsp> gn leah
22:44 < leah> i don't say that as a demand or an insult. i merely state this fact.
22:44 < leah> it is objectively inferior to every other contemporary file system on commonly used unix systems.
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22:47 < hmjsp> im gonna go eep now
22:47 < hmjsp> gn openbsd
22:55 < leah> when i'm not tired, and at a future date when i don't have other work going on, i have another new interesting porting project for openbsd
22:55 < sibiria> is it Betterbird?
22:55 < leah> no
22:55 < leah> bolt launcher, for playing runescape. i play runescape on linux.
22:55 < leah> i would like to play it on openbsd
22:56 < sibiria> good times, good memories
22:56 < leah> https://github.com/adamcake/Bolt
22:56 < leah> https://runescape.wiki/w/Bolt_Launcher
22:56 < leah> it's pretty dope
22:57 < leah> has rslite and hdos support
22:57 < leah> (oldschool rs)
22:58 < leah> if i do this, and it gets merged, it will disable the productivity of obsd users everywhere
22:58 < sibiria> i think the term "disrupt" is still very hip to use
22:59 < sibiria> e.g.: let's disrupt Big Productivity
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23:02 < kiliro> leah:  Have you worked cooperatively on Gielinor?
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23:30 < morpho> ffs2 is great
23:30 < morpho> ask a zfs user what zfs features they actually use
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23:32 < quinq> space pool, encryption, compression, snapshots, send/recv (replication)
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23:48 < oldlaptop> Checksumming seems like a good idea.
23:48 < morpho> i think parts of root are checksummed on openbsd with mtree
23:48 < morpho> thats a userspace tool though
23:49 < oldlaptop> usually those also aren't the parts you care about
23:50 < oldlaptop> (at least not in the context in which filesystem-level checksumming matters)
23:50 < oldlaptop> especially given how rarely you should be writing to /
23:51 < morpho> you can checksum if you want
23:52 < morpho> i dont know if smartmontools gives as granular as results on linux but if a drive is healthy it shouldnt be corrupting data
23:53 < oldlaptop> The drive isn't the only potential source of trouble, and SMART doesn't do anything close to the same job as a checksumming filesystem.
23:55 < mischief> at work we had a machine that had a single bit flip in a shared object in the page cache
23:55 < mischief> on disk it was fine, but since it was cached in memory, a program that used it just failed to start.
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23:58 < humm> how did debugging that look like?
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--- Log closed Mon May 04 00:00:24 2026