--- Log opened Mon May 04 00:00:24 2026
00:01 < mischief> the logs from the loader said what symbol was 'missing', so i pulled the firmware image and just ran nm on it to verify the correct symbol was present
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00:03 < morpho> mischief: so is memory votility a greater risk than disk corruption?
00:04 < mischief> both are risks
00:05 < mischief> in our case the rootfs is read-only and uses dm-verity, so i was fairly confident the on disk data was ok, otherwise it would have failed differently
00:06 < mischief> even if the data on disk is fine, it can suddenly not be in memory :-)
00:08 < oldlaptop> nuclear physics can be impolite
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00:18 < leah> there is one thing about openbsd ports that bothers me
00:19 < leah> i noticed it in the librewolf port, based on firefox port which has the same problem
00:19 < leah> and i noticed it in other ports
00:19 < leah> lots of ports don't double quote path strings
00:19 < leah> globbing issues are theoretically possible
00:19 < leah> in practise, people are going to run from /usr/ports, but it's possible to change the path of everything, e.g. WRKDIR
00:20 < leah> globbing is not guarded at all, in lots of parts
00:20 < leah> like when setting paths in CONFIGURE_ARGS
00:21 < leah> in practise, the user can just avoid paths with spaces in them, and typically this is observed
00:21 < leah> i couldn't find anything warning against this in the documentation
00:21 < leah> i'm unsure how quotes are handled in Make variables
00:22 < leah> but e.g. CONFIGURE_ARGS += --blablabla=${PATH}
00:22 < leah> should ideally be
00:22 < leah> but e.g. CONFIGURE_ARGS += --blablabla="${PATH}"
00:22 < leah> i'm not sure how characters are escaped in make variables either
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00:22 < leah> care is needed, both when maintaining and using the ports system
00:23 < leah> this issue persists on other bsd ports systems
00:24 < leah> it's an easy edge case
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00:25 < leah> perhaps though i'm wrong and something prevents this being a problem? otherwise, a general audit for this is required, within the ports system.
00:25 < leah> it's certainly something that i account for, to the point of being pedantic, in shell scripts
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00:37 < humm> leah: quotes are not handled in make variables
00:37 < humm> if you say   a = "${b}"   in make, the value of a will be exactly   "${b}"
00:38 < leah> right
00:38 < humm> when expanding ${a} in a recipe, make will then also expand the ${b}
00:38 < leah> so in the above example, if PATH was "/home/user/vicky something"
00:38 < leah> then it would do:
00:38 < leah> ./configure --blablabla=/home/user/vicky something
00:38 < leah> "something" would be a new argument
00:38 < humm> yes
00:39 < leah> therefore, the quotes must be added, as above
00:39 < leah> i would assume that quotes are escaped. or would i have to escape them?
00:39 < leah> e.g.
00:39 < humm> there are situations where the quotes don’t help
00:39 < leah> but e.g. CONFIGURE_ARGS += --blablabla=\"${PATH}\"
00:39 < humm> if PATH was /home/user/vicky"something
00:39 < leah> well, yes
00:40 < leah> i'm unsure as to how PATH could be escaped, as in this example
00:40 < humm> it can’t easily
00:40 < leah> just a limitation of Make
00:40 < leah> not much we can do
00:40 < humm> yes
00:41 < leah> therefore, guidance must be issues in the docs, stating this fact
00:41 < humm> best you could do if you wanted is --blablabla='${PATH}', where it would break only if PATH contains single quotes
00:41 < leah> advising that any work directories must not contain spaces or other bad characters
00:41 < leah> it is extremely unlikely that a path would contain a quote
00:43 < tvtoon> you have to use tools like xargs, or the command stuff from make
00:43 < leah> perhaps in this case, the age-old wisdom applies: don't do that
00:43 < leah> ports is not intended for general use, except in providing openbsd packages, and the usual assumptions likely hold, for nearly every user
00:43 < humm> tvtoon, how could xargs help here?
00:43 < tvtoon> it will get tricky if you want to build paths with blank spaces, you can check if the file exists and then keep going
00:44 < tvtoon> we are 2, I always wanted to know but most people argue it works
00:44 < leah> at least we'd be correct if this is addressed, but we can't assume that a given build system handles this correctly either
00:44 < leah> any given build system executed by ports
00:46 < leah> yes, i believe that to be a healthy workaround, as tvtoon specifies
00:46 < leah> inside a make target, check that the given path exists. perhaps pre-configure, or something suitable
00:47 < leah> well, i'm not going to audit the entire ports tree myself
00:47 < leah> i'm confident that this theoretical edge case never triggers any buggy behaviour, the way the openbsd project runs ports when building packages
00:48 < leah> once you start down that rabbit hole, then you logically must worry about patching the same issues inside each build system of each project that ports builds
00:48 < leah> directory escape problems for example, inside configure scripts
00:49 < leah> in other worlds:
00:49 < leah> audit the entire world
00:49 < humm> I’d expect configure scripts to be mostly fine, it’s Makefiles (again) that are terrible at this
00:49 < leah> not feasible
00:49 < leah> words*
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10:38 < sandbag> any pf guru here? i added rules to drop ssh bruteforcing connections but somehow its still not dropped https://paste.opensuse.org/pastes/5acbe7de5585
10:39 < sandbag> only allowing 1 connection every 10s but i tried establishing multiple ssh connecion under 10s and it still went thru
10:39 < dlg> which version of openbsd?
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10:55 < lts> sandbag: I think you have another unconditioinal pass rule for $ssh_alternate_port after the one where you've set rate limits for it
11:08 < sandbag> dlg: the latest
11:09 < sandbag> lts: should i put that rule at top then?
11:10 < mischief> last match wins except for quick
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11:13 < sandbag> mischief: ok so i put the rule which populates <troublemakers> after i allow ssh
11:14 < mischief> you probably just want one rule which includes the stateful tracking options, not two.
11:16 < sandbag> the 2nd rule is for bots who are hammering other ports and also find the ssh port
11:16 < sandbag> its dropping now
11:17 < hmjsp> how much space would one need for openbsd developing? assuming ur not working with big gui ports, would 256gb be enough for messing with kernel and ports system?
11:17 < mischief> hmjsp: easily
11:17 < sandbag> mischief: can u suggest the edit for having one rule
11:18 < hmjsp> mischief: okay thanks. wanna install it on a separate drive on my main pc (take advantage of its speed for compiling, etc) because dual booting is a pain
11:19 < mischief> sandbag: remove 'pass in proto tcp from any to (egress) port $ssh_alternate_port tag good' and keep the other rule with the stateful tracking?
11:21 < mischief> also you probably want to remove 'tagged trouble'
11:21 < sandbag> mischief: stateful tracking u mean 'keep state' ?
11:21 < sandbag> mischief: yeah i removed that tag
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11:21 < mischief> sandbag: yes, see 'Stateful Tracking Options' in pf.conf(5)
11:22 < sandbag> ok thanks
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11:23 < mischief> i don't really use tags, but i am 90% certain your usage of them is incorrect
11:24 < sandbag> mischief: whats wrong? i am new to pf so following some guides and pf book
11:24 < mischief> tags don't magically transfer between states
11:24 < sandbag> i assume the packets are tagged
11:25 < mischief> to my knowledge no, but maybe dlg can clarify
11:26 < sandbag> are u aware of which filter is faster, nftables or pf? just a general question
11:27 < sandbag> i couldnt find any recent public comparison of both
11:27 < mischief> probably netfilter
11:27 < sandbag> oh
11:27 < mischief> though i think the difference only really matters if you're considering pushing >10Gbps
11:37 < mischief> hmjsp: totaly space on my orangepi rv2 between all installed files, source, and built ports is just under 20GB
11:37 < mischief> total*
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11:48 < broke> is there any well, sane modern web browser that openbsd recommends?
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11:50 < sibiria> i think firefox and ungoogled chromium are both pretty sane after some curating of the settings
11:55 < thenightmail> probably isn't sane, but i use qutebrowser
11:55 < thenightmail> i don't think openbsd recommends a browser so to say
11:56 < sibiria> i have a preference for firefox because it lets you (as far as i can tell) stick entirely with RAM as cache, without spilling crap to disk all the time. i haven't found a reliable way yet to make chromium do the same
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11:59 < humm> broke: I’m afraid “sane” and “‘modern’ web browser” are mutually exclusive
11:59 < broke> thenightmail: did you get the adblock thing working?
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11:59 < broke> humm: haahahahha I know :(
11:59 -!- balsamic-oval [~balsamic-@user/balsamic-oval] has joined #openbsd
11:59 < thenightmail> broke: I don't visit many sites with adblock, but it seems to be working, hadn't tried to test it
12:00 < broke> I don't like modern web browsers, but I like to have them in case
12:00 < thenightmail> I don't see ads so I guess it is working haha
12:00 < broke> well that's good
12:00 < broke> (or maybe you go to sane websites)
12:01 < IcePic> sandbag: pf is not specifically slow, the network stack makes up almost all of the differences between OSes
12:01 < broke> humm: My main, (kind of) web browser is Links+ and dillo, not sure about the security but both of them doesn't even have JS so I never cared about the latter security, which I probably should.
12:01 < broke> but for JS, I need some kind of ass browser
12:01 < broke> a necessary evil
12:01 < thenightmail> nice, dillo is cool. I tried that before
12:01 < broke> this is 2026
12:02 < broke> :(
12:02 < thenightmail> i just downloaded lynx last night, haven't tried links+
12:02 < broke> Links+ or Links2 is something I have been daily driving for almost 2 years now
12:02 < broke> its amazingly useful
12:03 < broke> then again, I end up copying links and opening up websites that REQUIRE JS in some kind of ass browser
12:03 < broke> but most of the time, I just don't end up on those kind
12:03 < broke> might be lucky
12:03 < broke> Then again, a lot of the kinds I've found replacements or workarounds
12:03 < thenightmail> I found out about gemini protocol, and got amfora last night too
12:04 < broke> I was on gemini before, got too boring there
12:04 < broke> just me
12:04 < broke> I think people in gopher has more fun
12:04 < broke> even though its 80 char fixated pages, you have freedom in this 80 chars
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12:05 < thenightmail> is links+ just links2 with even more features? i'm curious about your setup, do you have different machines with different setups?
12:05 < broke> Currently, I don't have a browser in here, so I spin up my already dying phone's firefox, why must browsers be like this
12:06 < broke> thenightmail: I do have mutliple machine but on all of them I have links2
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12:06 < broke> links is kind of legacy
12:07 < broke> links2 is less legacy
12:07 < broke> mainly websites/search engines that does redirections
12:08 < broke> redirect links I mean, those don't work on links
12:08 < broke> (also links+ = links2)
12:08 < broke> links2 is the version name, and links+ is the pkg name in openbsd which is the same
12:09 < broke> I don't know why its + instead of 2
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12:09 < broke> On the other hand dillo is pretty good for minimal websites that uses HTML 4.1 and CSS 2.1 which is like 10% of the internet
12:09 < broke> 6% of them are websites from <2010
12:10 < broke> ok I'll stop with this nonsense actually I was just messing with random stats I made up
12:10 < broke> When it comes to the web and openbsd, I've always heard OpenBSD people hate HTTP entirely.
12:11 < broke> So does the Bell Labs people too.
12:12 < broke> Anyways, links is not a vim-like or whatever browser, you can however hack in source code to get it act like so, and that Links rendering beats both w3m and Lynx, no doubt
12:13 < broke> Infact, sometimes I've resorted to Links+ when reading texts
12:13 < broke> People have some ReaderMode or some stuff in their modern browser to be able to read, I'm here in Links being able to read amazingly from the default rendering
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12:16 < thenightmail> nice, just install links+. I'm on the zilog z80 page and just hit jump to content and boom there it all is. heck yeah, thanks for mentioning links+
12:17 < sibiria> what if you go to 6502 page? won't make it. too powerful cpu
12:18 < thenightmail> :)
12:18 < broke> thenightmail: the jump_to_content is the way
12:18 < broke> however not many websites actually do that
12:18 < broke> so on those you are to do PGDN a lot
12:18 < broke> :\
12:19 < broke> infact I had one experience where the NAV was sooooooooo long
12:24 < sonya> broke: did you try to manage "link copy" via kbd in links+? in links -g you can right click and copy, but.. thanks
12:24 < broke> my terminal emulator
12:24 < broke> I use st, and I have a st-copyurl-multiline patch
12:24 < sonya> oh..
12:24 < broke> also useful with irssi
12:24 < broke> for here
12:24 < sonya> i get it
12:25 < broke> a must feature from me to be honest, I cannot live without that functionality, especially if you main Links+
12:25 < broke> s/from/for/
12:25 -!- tertullian [~sonne@ip-095-222-113-247.um34.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has joined #openbsd
12:26 < sonya> actually tabbed browsing and seamless link copy is why i'm still with w3m.. :)
12:26 -!- joepublic [~joe@fsf/member/joepublic] has joined #openbsd
12:27 < broke> hmmm, btw whoever made the openbsd website clearly used some modern features
12:27 < IcePic> it was using not-modern things for a long while, and some complained about that too
12:28 < broke> oh yeah I get that too
12:28 < broke> you are not alone
12:28 < broke> people called me autistic for it
12:28 < broke> "You must love ruining your life using a TUI web browser that doesn't even work"
12:28 < broke> Hello hello, I've been using it for 2 years
12:29 < thenightmail> like ok u ipad baby (maybe that is a bit harsh ..)
12:30 < broke> oh nah, I don't really respond to these kind of insults because its a pain in the ass when they keep on arguing lmao
12:31 < broke> if you probably saw www.openbsd.org in Links+, and also in some modern web browser you probably can see some kind of newer CSS being used
12:31 < broke> instead of the old style (<2010) people used to abuse tables
12:32 < broke> (tables inside tables inside tables)
12:33 < hmjsp> mischief: surprisingly small. good to know then. whatcha doin on the orangepi?
12:34 < mischief> basking in the glory of openbsd working natively on a riscv64 machine
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12:34 < hmjsp> :)
12:35 < broke> (wait openbsd supported the riscs?)
12:35 < mischief> i might try to contribute a driver, but for one i might have to deal with upstream devicetree poop so i'm a little less motivated
12:35 < hmjsp> riscv is cool because no licensing costs, but if it ever picks up, im afraid that any costs saved would just go as profit to manufacturers rather than making products cheaper
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12:37 < broke> hmm, manufacturers are playing with ARMs these days though
12:37 < broke> I think they are settled on that
12:37 < mischief> broke: see https://www.openbsd.org/riscv64.html
12:37 < broke> cool, I didn't notice that on the list
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12:37 < mischief> spacemit k1 devices aren't listed there yet but likely will be eventually
12:37 < broke> wait nvm it *was* on the list
12:38  * broke facepalms
12:38 < hmjsp> it's interesting how niche OSes like openbsd and netbsd have much broader and more consistent support for more varied hardware, but linux only excels on bleeding edge stuff
12:39 < broke> Linux excels on bleeding everything
12:39 < hmjsp> xD
12:39 < broke> (no joke)
12:39 < mischief> i want a spacemit k3 next, but they are hard to find and a bit expensive for my taste
12:39 < hmjsp> linux is tolerable
12:40 < hmjsp> currently stuck with artix for the past couple years because i cba to distro hop... it doesn't have a sane base system (basic stuff is missing), and constant updates are annoying, but no other distro is simple AND has a sane release cycle (i.e. 6 months). plus the aur is great
12:41 < hmjsp> need linux for some win apps for uni
12:41 < hmjsp> freebsd might be worth giving a shot for win apps but at this point any advantages that freebsd gives will be offset by learning stuff all over again. my setup sucks but is good enough
12:43 < thenightmail> mm, so far I've survived uni without windows apps. whatever they require I would just head to their computer lab to do it
12:43 -!- broke [~broke@user/broke] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
12:43 < thenightmail> i have a matlab class that I'm hoping to do with octave, but I haven't looked into how all that works yet, are you also studying computer science?
12:43 < hmjsp> things would PROBABLY work... but i'd rather be sure it WILL work. it's really only ltspice and some custom C# app
12:44 < hmjsp> nope, electrical engineering
12:44 < rIMpossible> G'afternoon. I want to let all my X applications run on a dedicated datacenter machine with following specs: AMD Ryzen 5 3600, 2x HDD SATA 2,0 TB Enterprise, 2x RAM 32768 MB DDR4, NIC 1 Gbi
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12:45 < rIMpossible> AMD Ryzen 5 3600, 2x HDD SATA 2,0 TB Enterprise, 2x RAM 32768 MB DDR4, NIC 1 Gbi
12:45 < rIMpossible> t Intel I210
12:45 < rIMpossible> sorry
12:45 < broke> spec flex
12:45 < hmjsp> lol
12:45 < hmjsp> so u wanna run X over ssh?
12:45 < rIMpossible> Is this sufficent if I am 120 km away from the DC and the ping is below 30 ms ?
12:46 < rIMpossible> hmjsp: yes. So I can use dump notebooks
12:46 < hmjsp> i doubt distance is itself the issue as much as it is bandwidth and as you said ping
12:46 < rIMpossible> FreeCAD, Blender, Libreoffice, ...
12:46 < hmjsp> i have no experience doing that tho so good luck
12:46 < hmjsp> i might do the same tho tbh
12:46 < broke> IIRC, X over SSH requires the client machine to be able to render the stuff as well
12:47 < broke> so the client has to be pretty powerful
12:47 < hmjsp> for freecad mainly, i have a similar machine (ryzen 5700x)
12:47 < rIMpossible> broke: nope
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12:47 < hmjsp> just rendering the window contents surely?
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12:47 < broke> I'm not sure how X forwarding actually works
12:47 < broke> is there some documentation on it?
12:47 < rIMpossible> man ssh
12:48 < broke> that's it?
12:48 < broke> I mean the backend
12:48 < mischief> interactive graphics + latency is usually a losing combo
12:48 < rIMpossible> hmjsp: yes
12:48 < hmjsp> how fast is your internet connection rIMpossible ? ur NIC is 1Gb but do you actually have 1Gb internet?
12:48 < mischief> try it over a lan first and see what you think
12:48 < hmjsp> good idea
12:48 < mischief> then doing it over the internet becomes: that but worse
12:49 < rIMpossible> mischief: any advice, I want to use the Hetzner DC in Falkenstein/DE
12:49 < rIMpossible> Nuremberg is too far
12:49 < hmjsp> is there a way to emulate latency on ur router? or on the client?
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12:49 < mischief> rIMpossible: i am on nearly the other side of the planet from you. :-)
12:49 < rIMpossible> hmjsp: yeah, how you do for spoofers and other intruder crap
12:49 < rIMpossible> 'throttling'
12:50 < hmjsp> any programs in particular? this idea is interesting
12:50 < mischief> linux tc can do this
12:50 < rIMpossible> mischief: Hello from the other side of the planet :-)
12:50 < hmjsp> ...because i have a super underpowered netbook and if i can just connect it to net and get insanely powerful compute remotely... then that would be awesome :)
12:50 < broke> I've tried that
12:50 < hmjsp> mischief: ok will look into it
12:50 < broke> just could be me, firefox ran ass
12:51 < broke> I was done then and there
12:51 < broke> this is under LAN
12:51 < hmjsp> oop
12:51 < hmjsp> that doesn't sound goood
12:51 < broke> yes on underpowered netbooks especially
12:51 < broke> or low end laptops
12:51 < broke> (as in very weak laptops)
12:52 < hmjsp> how much throughput was the netbook capable of? maybe that's a factor?
12:52 < rIMpossible> mischief: any blog or other source, where I can see some setup for a smooth entry in that topic?
12:52 < broke> tbh I want to know how X is forwarded before anything
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12:52 < mischief> wifi will get you a good order of magnitude more latency than on ethernet as well, and pretty high jitter too
12:52 < broke> after that I could probably figure out if I could get it working
12:52 < mischief> rIMpossible: on what, linux tc?
12:52 < broke> mischief: so its best with both machines eth connected?
12:53 < rIMpossible> No, X remote
12:53 < broke> infact, that could just mean you'd just eth connect them directly
12:53 < broke> :\
12:53 < hmjsp> i wonder if X forwarding sucks as a protocol issue, maybe it's very talkative
12:54 < broke> probably not, I just haven't seen much blogs/articles on it
12:54 < hmjsp> afaik one of the core ideas in plan9 is networked computing, as in being able to use compute resources over network much more seamlessly. i wonder how they handle it and if it's any better with latency, etc
12:54 < broke> that should probably tell you what's up
12:54 < broke> people don't bother with X forwarding I guess
12:55 < mischief> rIMpossible: it's not complicated, just ssh -X <host> <program>
12:55 < rIMpossible> X in general is very unsecure due to missing ACL, ...
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12:55 < mischief> hmjsp: no, it isn't
12:55 < broke> you should also ssh -XC <host>
12:55 < rIMpossible> mischief: ok I will make me familiar with the man page in detail
12:55 < broke> -C for compression
12:56 < broke> that made it a tiny bit better on my end when I was testing
12:56 < thenightmail> I found the mailing list archive website, is it possible to download these archives and view them in neomutt or whatever mail client
12:56 < broke> hmm do they provide a mbox file?
12:56 < rIMpossible> I think I'll protect the connection to the DC machine with IPSEC or WG
12:57 < broke> iirc some mailing list archive the entire list into a mbox file
12:57 < hmjsp> interesting stuff... anyhow i'll log off for a while since i have a bunch of stuff to do
12:57 < broke> or a maildir archive
12:57 < hmjsp> adios
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12:57 < broke> bye
13:03 < broke> hmm, I guess I was kinda wrong, its *kind* of usable
13:03 < broke> (on LAN)
13:03 < broke> (wifi client, eth server)
13:04 < broke> I'm just gonna try gimp of all things
13:12 < thenightmail> I don't see a provided mbox file for the whole list, just for individual messages
13:13 < broke> how the links of the files like?
13:13 < broke> you could probably write a shell script to grab all of them
13:14 < broke> (doesn't sounds like a good idea to do for probably 70K of them though)
13:14 < broke> hmm... maybe you could ask about an archive by them for the mailing list on the mailing list
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13:21 < thenightmail> maybe I am looking for public-inbox hmm
13:23 < thenightmail> nah that seems only linux stuff ...
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13:25 < thenightmail> ah i am very confused, public inbox is the server setup i would want a client it seems? huh
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13:47 < mischief> broke: now with your wifi and 2ms latency and horrible jitter, imagine how it is across a link with 10 or 20 times more latency
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13:50 < broke> Well yeah that would be horrible but *workable* I guess
13:50 < broke> or not
13:50 < broke> :\
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13:52 < mischief> it's not that it can't be used, it's just continually annoying
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13:55 < broke> agreed
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14:00 < sibiria> if you really have horrible jitter or latency as soon as you send 10 mbit/s over wifi then something is wrong
14:06 < mischief> it depends on where i ping from, but it's mostly 2-3ms for wifi. sometimes the jitter can be 10-20ms, or worse. ethernet is pretty solid at < 0.2 ms
14:10 < sibiria> ~2 ms is pretty typical for wifi and in itself less than the typical 1/60th of a second frame update (16 ms). action->screen update delay becomes annoying when lagging behind 3-4 frames
14:11 < sibiria> my wireless network shoots up to about 20-25 ms latency at 20 mbit/s throughput (802.11ac)
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14:24 < mischief> i am on 802.11be using 6ghz and 160MHz channels, afaict
14:24 < mischief> can get about a gigabit both ways
14:25 < mischief> the jitter actually got better with sftp running
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14:30 < rIMpossible> mischief: 802.11be on OpenBSD?
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14:33 < mischief> no, i was testing my work thinkpad with linux
14:34 < rIMpossible> Are there actually USB solutions on the market, which are supported by OpenBSD?
14:36 < mischief> for... 802.11be? don't think so
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14:37 < rIMpossible> I am looking for something to pimp my apu2 as host
14:38 < rIMpossible> still have the compex card from pcengines in there back at that time. It feels kinda rusty nowadays ;)
14:40 < mischief> i feel like this has come up many times here, and most people say: don't run an ap on openbsd
14:42 < mischief> the code for the newer qualcomm chipsets that are in most APs is BSD licensed, so nothing would really stop a brave soul from trying a port.. :-)
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14:47 < sibiria> even 802.11n is poorly supported in openbsd. and no wpa3. best just stick to a second device with openwrt or similar
14:47 < rIMpossible> mischief: Wasn't there anything with the preliminaries for the IEEE802.11 driver from Damien Bergamini, which needs further work BEFORE newer wireless drivers with there features can be ported?
14:48 < rIMpossible> s/there/their
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14:52 < rIMpossible> sorry, Damien Bergamini wrote the iwn driver, my fault
14:54 < sibiria> he also wrote the excellent but unfortunately stuck in 802.11g land, ral(4)
14:54 < sibiria> i waited many years for 802.11n support in ral(4) but alas
14:55 < sibiria> i ran it in hostap mode for about 10 years. super stable, not even once did it drop out or have a jumpy connection
14:56 < rIMpossible> I am using athn(4) in my apu2, what are the current options, when I need hostap mode?
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14:57 < sibiria> i think it's just ral(4) and ural(4)? maybe one more, but that's about it. very few of the drivers can do hostap
14:57 < rIMpossible> sibiria: I had also very stable run with athn(4) nothing to complain
14:57 < broke> iirc athn are the popular ones
14:58 < broke> I was told to swtich to athn's before using openbsd, but iwn(4) even though its non-free works great, then again, *non-free* could be a reason to ditch it altogether
14:58 < sibiria> maybe we had this discussion before, but *which* athn(4) chipset?
14:59 < sibiria> i've tried 4 or 5 of them a couple of years ago, and it was a complete dumpster fire
14:59 < sibiria> absolutely unusable
14:59 < broke> wifi catching on fire?
14:59 < broke> that's news
14:59 < sibiria> i couldn't even use those in bss mode (regular client)
15:01 < rIMpossible> I have this one: athn0 at pci4 dev 0 function 0 "Atheros AR928X" rev 0x01: apic 5 int 16
15:01 < rIMpossible> athn0: AR9280 rev 2 (2T2R), ROM rev 22, address xxxxxxxxxxxxx
15:01 < sibiria> 9280, ok
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15:03 < mischief> looks like bwfm as featured on an rpi can run in ap :))
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15:04 < sibiria> "The firmware is outdated and contains known vulnerabilities."
15:04 < sibiria> broadcom (and qualcomm) in a nutshell. tons of vulns, nothing ever gets patched
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15:05 < rIMpossible> So, better stick with athn(4) if reliability and security is important?
15:05 < mischief> that seems fixable..? not sure why the fw is so old
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15:07 < sibiria> rIMpossible: who knows. could be a stab in the dark. it's particularly troublesome if the device has internal firmware that is next to impossible to vet
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15:09 < rIMpossible> 1 Notebook, 1 Desktop is wired. So I bring the 2nd notebook also on wire. Just need to re-fix the again broken 1 GBit/s h/w-port
15:09 < mischief> sibiria: uhuh... 'The firmware is outdated and contains known vulnerabilities.' was added in 2017 and the firmware revision is at year 2020.. so that advice may be out of date
15:09 < sibiria> now it's just 6 years old
15:10 < mischief> :')
15:10 < rIMpossible> *grusel*
15:10 < rIMpossible> sorry for german :)
15:10 < sibiria> i think in general it's easier to trust something like openwrt for this, instead of openbsd. unfortunately
15:10 < sibiria> a lot of eyes on openwrt and the common devices they support
15:10 < sibiria> e.g. realtek's (mediatek) many chipsets
15:11 < sibiria> many of their wifi transceivers also have open source firmware
15:13 < sibiria> ralink* not realtek
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15:22 < rIMpossible> sibiria: mischief: I made a comparison of all the drivers with deepseek and apparently athn(4) is current best choice for hostap and security. I let it check from here https://man.openbsd.org/?query=wireless&apropos=1&sec=4&arch=default&manpath=OpenBSD-current
15:25 < rIMpossible> Thanks for discussing this out. I think the external solution with an OpenWRT device for better performance/security and options seems reasonable
15:25 < rIMpossible> ... if wanted ...
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16:57 < Posterdati> hi
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16:58 < broke> hello
16:58 < Posterdati> please help, I'd like to port OpenBSD kernel to stm32mp257 which is a cortex-a35 arm cpu. Is it possible to avoid u-boot code and load the kernel directly (using firmware routine)?
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17:35 < cgnarne>  i think u-boot can be considered "the firmware" so i'm not sure what you are asking for makes sense. 
17:36 < cgnarne> also, iirc u-boot uefi is used to load the kernel
17:37 -!- H3110 [~H3110@49.36.113.228] has joined #openbsd
17:39 < H3110> Hey, I am a new user, is this correct?
17:39 < H3110> To maintain a system, for stable, use
17:39 < H3110> 1) syspatch for OS and
17:39 < H3110> 2) pkg_add -u for third party software.
17:39 < H3110> That's it.
17:39 < H3110> And I'm thinking to switch to current, so:
17:39 < H3110> 1) Don't use syspatch, but use sysupgrade -s for OS
17:39 < H3110> 2) pkg_add -u for third party.
17:39 < H3110> Nothing else right?
17:39 < H3110> thank you
17:41 -!- sandmanXpuff [~sandmanXp@user/sandmanXpuff] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
17:41 < H3110> and should i follow/check any mailing list before upgrading a -current system every time?
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17:45 < cgnarne> that is probably a good idea, yes
17:47 < H3110> Hey cgnarne, in which mailist do they announce manual intervention required by user? tech? also is my above system maintaince fine or am I wrong/missing something?
17:47 < H3110> Thank you!
17:47 < rIMpossible> H3110: check mailing list archive (marc.info) or subscribe to openbsd-misc, openbsd-dev. you'll find the procedure and list site on the openbsd site
17:48 < H3110> I have subscribed to announce, i'll check out these too thank you
17:49 < rIMpossible> H3110: announce is probably not what you want, if you are on the bleeding edge (-current)
17:49 < H3110> ohh got it. its erreta only for stable i guess
17:49 < rIMpossible> yes
17:50 < rIMpossible> H3110: https://www.openbsd.org/mail.html check this out
17:50 < cgnarne> I think your list is fine. maybe take a look at sysutils/sysclean
17:51 < H3110> alright, thank you both :)
17:51 < rIMpossible> yaw
17:51 < rIMpossible> H3110: with pleasure
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18:03 < pardis> sysmerge is occasionally also important
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18:05 < H3110> pardis so if openbsd has made a little change in config of a software, those changes wont take place without sysmerge, is that correct?
18:07 < ivdsangen> only if it conflicts with changes you made, otherwise changes are auto-merged
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18:10 < ivdsangen> i mean, sysmerge is run automatically, only sometimes you need to manually merge something
18:11 < lts> That is not what the instructions say https://www.openbsd.org/faq/upgrade78.html#AfterSets
18:12 < lts> I mean, it should be manually run to be sure
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18:15 < ivdsangen> i watch what sysmerge outputs at first boot, it tells if there were conflicts, or should i run sysmerge after upgrade to be sure?
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18:17 < lts> I've read it as instructions to "run sysmerge to check"
18:17 < H3110> it also says:  Finally, remove /sbin/oreboot . Should I do that too?
18:19 < lts> Only if you've somehow wondered to the not-recommended manual upgrade path
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18:20 < pardis> ivdsangen: if sysmerge doesn't tell you there are manual changes on boot, you don't need to manually run it
18:20 < pardis> but checking the boot output is probably more work than just running it anyway
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18:26 < H3110> So here is my steps to maintain -current:
18:26 < H3110> 1) check https://www.openbsd.org/faq/current.html
18:26 < H3110> 2) sysupgrade -s
18:26 < H3110> 3) sysmerge
18:26 < H3110> 4) fw_update
18:26 < H3110> 5) pkg_add -u
18:26 < H3110> 6) reboot
18:26 < H3110> try to doo this every week. Is this correct? I heard that you need to do pkg_add -D snap -u when close to a release as it doesn't work other wise
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18:28 < ivdsangen> you forgot pkg_delete -na and pkg_delete -a
18:29 < lts> Huh, I haven't run those and find hits. That should be in the upgrade guide
18:29 < H3110> I just do pkg_delete -a whenever I uninstall a package. Do upgrading also deletes some packages?
18:30 < H3110> which require pkg_delete -a?
18:31 < pardis> it can result in new versions of packages which have removed a dependency that was in the old version
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18:31 < cgnarne> h3110: i only do sysupgrade -current when pkg_add fails with wrong library versions. doing this whole thing every week seems unnecessary 
18:32 < cgnarne> and tedious
18:32 < H3110> so when there is a new snapshot, pkg_add fails?
18:32 < pardis> not always
18:32 < H3110> how often average a new snapshot?
18:33 < H3110> and missing a few snapshot in between is fine?
18:33 < cgnarne> no, only If library versions get bumped
18:33 < pardis> depends on your architecture, and yes, missing one is fine
18:33 < pardis> doing this every week may or may not be a good idea, depending on how paranoid you are, since this is how you get security updates on -current
18:34 < H3110> so how often do you recommend?
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18:36 < cgnarne> depends. for me doing sysupgrade when pkg_add fails works
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18:36 < H3110> okay cool
18:37 < cgnarne> and i pkg_add -u like whenever
18:37 < cgnarne> again, works for me™
18:37 < Posterdati> cgnarne: what about openprom?
18:38 < cgnarne> what about it?
18:38 < H3110> man sysupgrade says:      -s      Upgrade to a snapshot.  The default is to upgrade to the next release.
18:38 < H3110> so this upgrades to the next snapshot and not the latest? so if I'm two versions behind, i have run this twice?
18:38 < cgnarne> no. next is latest
18:38 < H3110> okay thank you
18:39 < H3110> gtg bye
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19:37 < gnubert>  pwdls
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20:18 < klsrqm> anyone used u9fs here to share files from OpenBSD to Plan9 / 9Front?
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23:20 < polarian> hmm 
23:20 < polarian> it seems my pf skill shave rent a little rusty
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23:20 < polarian> when you set a macro to an iface, take for example:
23:21 < polarian> eth_if="bse0"
23:21 < polarian> now take this rule
23:21 < polarian> pass in on $eth_if from any to $eth_if
23:21 < polarian> the first £eth_if will substitute in bse0, the second because its an address will subsitute in the IPv4/IPv6 address (two rules for each as no inet family specified) 
23:22 < polarian> cool
23:22 < polarian> but, because IPv6 has LLA, this is being subsituted in instead
23:22 < pardis> the macro is irrelevant here
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23:22 < pardis> you would get the same behaviour if you literally write 'pass in on bse0 from any to bse0
23:23 < polarian> alright sure
23:23 < polarian> point is 
23:23 < polarian> LLA is being substituted 
23:23 < polarian> which is the wrong address, as LLA is nophop
23:23 < polarian> nohop*
23:23 < pardis> why do you want to filter by address? if you can answer that, you can work out what address to put there
23:23 < polarian> idk to be honest, this is a firewall I wrote ages ago
23:24 < polarian> I wouldnt even need to specify the address
23:24 < polarian> im just curious if the shothand can be modified to work
23:24 < polarian> or whether you just need to specify the address
23:24 < polarian> theres no "need" for it, only pure curiosity 
23:25 < pardis> why not just 'pass in on $eth_if'?
23:26 < pardis> the only case I can think of where you'd actually want the 'from any to whatever' is if you have forwarding on and don't want to accept traffic for forwardingn
23:27 < polarian> pardis: I know I know
23:28 < polarian> its an example
23:28 < polarian> but I assume the answer to it is no, the shorthand doesnt work for ipv6 as it will always use LLA
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23:30 < polarian> also it seems like OpenBSD on RPI3 network is extremely slow
23:30 < polarian> just sshing into it takes 30-60 seconds
23:30 < polarian> I got a feeling its because I am using a 1A plug :3
23:30 < polarian> I have no 2A lying around, and the rpi3 is meant to be powered from 2A
23:30 < polarian> 5V@2A
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23:45 < polarian> well im getting 71% packet loss ssh'ing into this RPI 4b
23:45 < polarian> sorry 3b
23:45 < polarian> so unless its the cable... which I doubt it is... 
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--- Log closed Tue May 05 00:00:25 2026