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05:06 < deimosBSD> rewrote the patch histogram script, https://termbin.com/khtb
05:07 < deimosBSD> spot checking says it's more correct
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08:30 < sandbag> which is the most lightweight jail manager?
08:32 < morpho> on openbsd?
08:32 < sandbag> there's no jail like freebsd?
08:33 < sandbag> how do i sandbox an app then?
08:33 < morpho> the security model is different
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08:34 < morpho> you dont run services as root, you create system users/groups
08:35 < sandbag> morpho: creating users/groups is not sandboxing lol
08:35 < morpho> chrome and firefox are already 'sandboxed' with pledge/unveil
08:35 < sandbag> is there a manager for that? 
08:35 < sandbag> for creating vnets
08:36 < morpho> there is a vm
08:37 < sandbag> i am already on a vm
08:37 < sandbag> i need lightweight sandbox, like containers on linux
08:37 < metavoid> you are the manager
08:38 < sandbag> something like bastilebsd, man openbsd is so bare bones
08:38 < morpho> httpd runs in chroot
08:38 < cgnarne> sandbag: there's nothing like that
08:38 < sandbag> morpho: chroot is weak
08:38 < metavoid> containers aren't really a sandbox anyway
08:38 < sandbag> metavoid: oh yeah? escape one. i will wait
08:38 < metavoid> it happens quite often
08:39 < sandbag> not if you follow basic practices. dont run container as root, no new privileges flag, read-only, etc
08:39 < morpho> https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=119318909016582
08:40 < metavoid> it doesn't really protect against kernel exploits
08:40 < metavoid> you are better off with running vm in vmd imo
08:40 < sandbag> morpho: yet i dont see kvm escapes every day? whoever wrote that sounds stupid indeed
08:40 < morpho> dirty frag and friends could break containers wdym
08:40 < cgnarne> morpho: classic theo
08:41 < morpho> its not every day, more like every week or month
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08:41 < sandbag> morpho: thats when you dont lockdown useless kernel modules, every one of the latest LPE is using some useless module
08:42 < metavoid> they're only useless if you aren't using them
08:42 < morpho> ok so on linux i have to compile a custom kernel, setup selinux, run a whole other kernel, user groups, firewalls, ect
08:42 < sandbag> and with selinux, its impossible
08:42 < sandbag> morpho: thats called defense in depth
08:42 < metavoid> what is impossible?
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08:42 < sandbag> to pop a root shell
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08:42 < metavoid> so why did selinux not prevent the copy fail exploit?
08:43 < morpho> if its set up properly*
08:43 < sandbag> metavoid: it did, wat are you smoking
08:43 < morpho> optional-security is not security
08:43 < metavoid> sandbag: no, the exploit runs fine even with selinux on
08:43 < cgnarne> If you run something with proper privsep and pledge/unveil you don't really need containers
08:43 < morpho> ^
08:43 < sandbag> metavoid: yeah then you have lax selinux, you need to have fine grained policies
08:44 < morpho> cybersecurity experts are furious at one canadian guys weird trick
08:44 < sandbag> cgnarne: how can i run nginx on pledge?
08:44 < metavoid> sandbag: out of the box it did not prevent it
08:44 < cgnarne> patch it, you know where to find the source
08:44 < sandbag> i am not a c dev
08:44 < morpho> run it behind a httpd proxy or relayd
08:45 < sandbag> metavoid: bad excuse lol
08:45 < morpho> is it not pledged already?
08:45 < cgnarne> sandbag: use it as an opportunity to learn new things
08:45 < sandbag> either way lpes are not even new, only the frequency has increased slightly
08:46 < morpho> sandbag: pledge/unveil is very simple. its like a selinux policy but you can apply it mid-execution
08:46 < morpho> so programs can run at a higher priviledge at launch then drop them 
08:46 < metavoid> sandbag: not really, its obviously insecure by default, that something we usually dont like
08:46 < sandbag> morpho: is there any doc which can help me with setting up pledge/unvil?
08:46 < morpho> man pledge
08:46 < cgnarne> the man pages
08:46 < morpho> man unveil
08:46 < sandbag> so i don't have to modify the target program right?
08:48 < morpho> what web service are you trying to transfer to openbsd?
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08:48 < sandbag> i am just using it as proxy, nothing is hosted there
08:48 < morpho> oh, then just use httpd/relayd
08:49 < morpho> openbsd comes with a web server
08:49 < sandbag> i dont have enough time to learn another webserver
08:49 < metavoid> why another OS then?
08:50 < metavoid> https://man.openbsd.org/httpd.conf.5
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08:50 < sandbag> as i said, cant do it right now
08:51 < sandbag> i already have all nginx configs
08:51 < metavoid> whats your problem then?
08:51 < sandbag> > Use of pledge() in an application will require at least some study andunderstanding of the interfaces called.
08:52 < morpho> pledge/unveil is unique because it drops privilidges mid execution which selinux/capsicum cannot do
08:52 < sandbag> i have to patch nginx for this? i am not even qualified to do that
08:52 < morpho> it would be much easier to just use httpd for proxy
08:52 < sandbag> does it support http2?
08:53 < sandbag> for tls traffic
08:53 < metavoid> read the man pages
08:53 < sandbag> dude i dont have that much time to mess around with httpd, i said that earlier !!!!
08:54 < metavoid> or use another os if you are not willing to spend time here
08:54 < metavoid> that would save you time probably
08:54 < sandbag> the lack of a lightweight sandbox manager is annoying indeed 
08:54 < metavoid> you are missing the point entirely
08:54 < morpho> it has an anti-weight sandbox manager
08:55 < rnkn> sandbag: you should get a refund
08:55 < metavoid> I want a refund
08:55 < sandbag> bruhh
08:55 < morpho> you can run OpenBSD on xen i think
08:55 < morpho> bam! containers
08:55 < sandbag> why no jails like freebsd?
08:56 < sandbag> its user friendly
08:56 < metavoid> try freebsd, ok?
08:56 < morpho> is putting another heir in heir user friendly?
08:56 < sandbag> maybe i can use clod to do this pledge thing
08:56 < morpho> hier*
08:57 < sandbag> hopefully claude knows about openbsd
08:57 < sandbag> metavoid: ur dodging the question
08:58 < sandbag> morpho: its not nested virt
08:58 < sandbag> jails are like linux containers, not strong but still better than nothing
08:58 < sandbag> and doesnt take days to setup
08:58 < sandbag> some people dont have infinite free tiem
08:59 < ssm_> this is where I'd put my !ops command, if I had one
08:59 < morpho> Puffy Gestapo when
08:59 < metavoid> sandbag: everyone is waiting for you to write jails support for OpenBSD, hows going?
09:00 < metavoid> its not writing itself
09:00 < ssm_> we had jails, they were removed
09:00 < ssm_> sysjail
09:00 < sandbag> !ops
09:01 < sandbag> metavoid: i do susadmin, not a c dev 
09:01 < metavoid> Even has its own wikipedia page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sysjail
09:02 < morpho> openbsd is very simple
09:02 < morpho> thats why its secure
09:02  * ssm_ looks at llvm and gcc
09:02 < ssm_> huh
09:02  * ssm_ looks at amdgpu
09:03 < ssm_> at least x86 doesn't have gcc4 anymore
09:03 < morpho> the microsoft excel team wrote their own compiler
09:04 < morpho> is that what you want >_<
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09:04 < ssm_> tcc or 9c plz uwu
09:04 < ssm_> delete all ports
09:04 < morpho> i dont think 9c supports c99
09:05 < ssm_> good
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09:05 < ssm_> full of defects
09:05 < morpho> openbsd is written in c99
09:05 < morpho> tcc might work? try it
09:05 < rnkn> c99 is the one with the best name
09:05 < ssm_> c99 is bigger number than c23 so it's better
09:06 < morpho> the 90s were cooler
09:08 < morpho> amdgpu is mostly autogenerated
09:08 < morpho> something very strange like xml to c
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09:27 < IcePic> at some point "pcc" could compile openbsd, at least for x86(_64)
09:33 < morpho> 'It's that extra 4MB of poo code, that is what makes it more secure.'
09:38 < ssm_> 724M    /usr/src/gnu
09:39 < ssm_> 521M    /usr/src/sys/dev/pci/drm
09:41 < IcePic> at least its not nvidia blobs compiled "somewhere else" that you run in your kernel
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09:43 < cgnarne> ssm_: 512M? damn bro
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09:47 < morpho> people dont believe them when you tell them linux dont work
09:48 < morpho> that thread on vms and xen is pretty interesting
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10:03 < ssm_> thing named "drm" more open than novideo drivers
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10:10 < cve> I recently started announcing an IPv6 /48 network using bgpd(8) and it works \o/ -- now I am curious about how to redirect packets to endpoints ...
10:10 < cve> my idea would be to connect the endpoints with respective wireguard tunnels, assigning each endpoint a /64 in the public /48 space
10:10 < IcePic> cve: whee
10:10 < cve> are there additional things required? potentially binat-to rules in the firewall, route(8) rules, etc?
10:11 < cve> (this is the first time I am doing networking/firewalling that is non-trivial, i.e. goes beyond just blocking a port)
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10:16 < PizDOS_6_22> Yo, are the release songs (like on the CDs) all rights reserved or..?
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11:05 < vortexx> sandbag: nginx is already pledged I believe, just install it, read the pkg readme in /usr/local/share/doc/pkg-readmes/nginx , apply your config file and hey presto
11:06 < vortexx> morpho: telling people to use relayd is nice but relayd is fairly obscure and hard to configure, not many examples out there. If someone knows nginx as a reverse proxy, let them continue with it
11:07 < vortexx> sandbag: on OpenBSD we don't worry as much about exploits as elsewhere as by default things are much more locked down. It's set up to just run, even with services activated that you'd turn off in initial config of linux
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12:01 < sandbag> vortexx: splendid but is there a way to verify it's pledged?
12:01 < sandbag> vortexx: i like that openbsd is more secure than linux. but it's still good to always verify
12:03 < frostyfalls> source code is the best way to verify :)
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12:07 < sandbag> frostyfalls: hehe c is not easy to read 
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12:08 < sandbag>  does pledge also isolate the network?
12:09 < CosmicDJ> sandbag: https://dataswamp.org/~solene/2023-09-08-openbsd-how-to-pledge-a-program.html "It's possible to find which running programs are currently using pledge() by using ps auxww | awk '$8 ~ "p" { print }', any PID with a state containing p indicates it's pledged."
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12:12 < oldlaptop> How much value any given process is really getting from pledge() can vary, of course. There comes a point where it needs so many promises that it's not really worthwhile.
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12:15 < sandbag> CosmicDJ: thats good for small programs but huge projects will take a lot of time
12:16 < oldlaptop> If you're really, really adamant about "i do susadmin, not a c dev", pledge() really isn't meant to be a thing for you to do anything with. It's designed so developers can tell the kernel which system calls a process will be using after a given point in time, not for building "jails" in the sense you seem to be thinking about.
12:16 < sandbag> i dont see nginx process ps auxww | awk '$8 ~ "p" { print }
12:17 < sandbag> vortexx: ur wrong!
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12:18 < sandbag> oldlaptop: in linux land, we use apparmor/selinux/seccomp/containers for sandboxing/isolation
12:18 < sandbag> those tools can be used by anyone
12:18 < sandbag> sad that wireguard is also not pledged
12:19 < oldlaptop> For example, a program like ls will call pledge() with a set of promises that doesn't include the system calls for network sockets. A program like cat may call pledge() once before it opens any files, with promises needed for opening files (actually just one), and then again after it has opened all the files it will ever need, to drop the filesystem privileges.
12:20 < sandbag> so its just a syscall filter like seccomp
12:20 < oldlaptop> (I don't think the real cat actually calls pledge() twice, but I could be remembering wrong. More likely it simply only calls pledge() for the first time after opening any files.)
12:20 < oldlaptop> Out of all those not-really-comparable things you listed, seccomp() is the closest to what pledge() does.
12:21 < sandbag> wasn't comparing, i was talking about the tools for isolating the apps
12:21 < oldlaptop> pledge()'s main distinction is that it is much easier for developers to apply to real programs in actual practice - almost all of the programs in OpenBSD itself use it.
12:21 < sandbag> i only see a few core packages using pledge like ntp, pf, etc
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12:22 < sonya> sandbag:  a bit old, but this could give you some .. or not ..  https://arxiv.org/html/2405.06447v1
12:22 < oldlaptop> pledge is not applicable to something like wireguard, as a kernel subsystem. (Perhaps ifconfig(8) technically pledges itself? Doesn't seem like a very high priority - there may not be a promise that covers its goofy ioctl stuff, given that it will be pretty much the only program that would use it.)
12:23  * sandbag curses javascript
12:23 < sandbag> sonya: looks worth a read, thanks
12:24 < oldlaptop> pf, as another kernel subsystem, also isn't really something that could be "pledged". (pfctl presumably is)
12:25 < sandbag> hmm its running as root so pointless anyway
12:25 < oldlaptop> Kernel subsystems don't really even "run as root". If anything they are more privileged than that.
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12:27 < sandbag> huh, kernel access is root no?
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12:28 < sandbag> anything running as root has kernel level privielge
12:30 < oldlaptop> as for "only a few core packages use it", that is just not true. You should expect to see the p state on almost every process on an OpenBSD system until you start installing packages. On my home router, for example (mostly base services), the only exceptions are init, ftpd (which I should decommission on that box...), and a few of the privileged "initial" processes for privsep services, like dhcpleased. (They pretty much all still have pledges on the 
12:30 < oldlaptop> processes that actually do the work.)
12:31 < oldlaptop> Ah, there's unbound in there too.
12:32 < sandbag> oldlaptop: sshd doesnt pledge
12:32 < sandbag> like thats very critical service
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12:36 < sandbag> oldlaptop: do u use ansible for managing multiple openbsd boxes?
12:36 < oldlaptop> I'm not up on openssh internals, but my loose understanding (?) is that the processes that pledge themselves aren't long-lived
12:36 < oldlaptop> (https://cvsweb.openbsd.org/checkout/src/usr.bin/ssh/sshd-auth.c,v?rev=1.14)
12:37 < emmanuelux> Hello, I identify that openbsd can have 2 different default routes on ipv4 (on the same interface) if a dhcpd server that provides the gateway changes its default gateway. the former route is not destroyed when openbsd add the new one. what is strange is that it is accepted because I can't add a second route with a "route add default" command (error : file exists). I manage thos for now with ifstated that check if there are 2 default routes every 10s.
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13:06 < cli> Pledge wireguard? What
13:06 < cli> C is not easy to read?
13:06 < cli> Its not yaml for sure
13:06 < cli> But still
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13:07 < cli> https://codeberg.org/OpenBSD/ports/src/branch/master/www/nginx/patches
13:07 < cli> grep 'pledge('
13:08 < cli> I have a harder time reading copious amounts of AI rigmarole than C
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13:18 < oldlaptop> Much like Klingon, C is not easy to read if you can't read it.
13:19 < citbl> I just made a joke in a different channel that rust read like Klingon (and sounded like it)
13:20 < citbl> C is poetry!
13:20 < oldlaptop> Klingon poetry or Romulan poetry?
13:21 < citbl> hmm
13:21 < ivdsangen> if its logical it might be Vulkan
13:21 < citbl> well it's not prolog
13:21 < IcePic> "Klingon Phasers have two settings, Kill and Kill-Horribly-Painful"
13:21 < oldlaptop> There's an undefined-behavior joke in there somewhere.
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14:27 < thrig> unix was better in the original klingon
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15:03 < lts> Speaking of nginx, RCE in rewrite module https://depthfirst.com/nginx-rift
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15:09 < sonya> hello.. could you please advise the way to find where the " ld: error: undefined symbol: $SYMBOL " could be defined (to -lINK with that lib).. trying to build NetHack-5.0.0.. my feeble mind stuck at linking executable.. thanks!
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15:31 < sonya> ..... finally ... quest is completed...
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15:38 < sonya> without curses and X11.... errr
15:43 < thrig> the other game is getting some amulet, once you pass the compile quest
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15:47 < lts> Just make sure it's not a fake compile
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16:39 < ssm_> sonya: most roguelike need either curses (ascii) or x11 (graphics/tiles)
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17:00 < sonya> ssm_: thrig lts - thanks.. i'm here right now →  https://termbin.com/snh4  → trying to compile with tty, curses and X11 .. looks like i missed smth dumb and simple..
17:00 < sonya> tty-only is ok (quest completed).. curses and X11 - not yet :)
17:01 < ssm_> you have no include dirs
17:01 < ssm_> -I flag on clang
17:02 < ssm_> oh wait this is linking only
17:03 < sonya> all objects are done, but this "undefined symbols" are where i'm stuck. guess i need to find where exactly they're defined and link'em together for good..
17:04 < sonya> i linked already with all libs from nethack-3.6.7 ...
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17:07  * sonya needs a coffee..
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21:07 < klsrqm> sonya: c(_)
21:17 < sonya> klsrqm: ? 
21:20 < sonya> i managed to build and link executable, but now it refuses to start with my settings ( X Error: code 15 (BadName (named color or font does not exist)), request 45, minor 0, serial 122 )  Program initialization has failed. X Error  ..
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21:20 < sonya> sure, i can "To report this error, call Izchak at extension 42.."
21:21 < sonya> but not today.. :)
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--- Log closed Fri May 15 00:00:28 2026