--- Log opened Mon May 18 00:00:32 2026
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00:27 < morpho> anybody installed openbsd as a xen guest?
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00:28 < morpho> it seems to boot i just dont know how to get into it
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01:29 < jetpackjackson> Hello, does anyone here use niri on openbsd? Is it stable for daily use like on linux?
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01:50 < sandmanXpuff> i don't think wayland is best on openbsd, i've heard ppl have got it to run but not 100%
01:50 < sandmanXpuff> haven't used scrolling wm's much but their might be something similiar like paperwm
01:55 < byteskeptical> jetpackjackson: I don't use it myself but the mailing list has a group of users that do and it seems to be working fairly well
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02:49 < jetpackjackson> Oh cool! I forgot about the mailing lists 🫠
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09:06 < morpho> does openbsd install image open a console?
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09:25 < ssm_> morpho: grep cons /sys/arch/$(machine)/conf/RAMDISK
09:25 < ssm_> need sources ofc
09:25 < ssm_> -s/cons/ws/
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09:27 < cgnarne> morpho: wdym?
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09:40 < rIMpossible> morpho: do you want to drop to a root shell during install?
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09:43 < rIMpossible> The OpenBSD installer can be dropped to a shell prompt by typing S (for shell) when prompted by the initial installer banner. You can also drop to the shell during the installation process by typing ! at any prompt, or by pressing Ctrl-Z or Ctrl-C at specific prompts.
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09:44 < rIMpossible> Once inside the shell, you can perform manual tasks, check network connectivity, or manipulate disks. To return to the installer at any time, simply type exit.
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10:03 < morpho> sorry just reading the faq again. I need to edit the boot.conf and add 'set tty com0'
10:03 < morpho> trying to install under xen
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10:19 < morpho> can that be done on linux?
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10:22 < cgnarne> can what be done? what are you trying to do?
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10:27 < morpho> i need to edit the /etc/boot.conf on the install78.iso/img
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10:27 < cgnarne> why?
10:28 < morpho> so i can access the serial console
10:29 < cgnarne> you can do that from the boot loader
10:32 < morpho> its in a xen vm
10:32 < cgnarne> you can mount the install img via vnconfig and edit /etc/boot.conf
10:33 < cgnarne> doesn't xen give a graphics console?
10:34 < morpho> the host is headless
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10:39 < cgnarne> no vnc access to the vms?
10:39 < cgnarne> anyway try the vnconfig approach
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12:41 < citbl> I found the australian mirror to have a broken go-1.25 package, unless it went wrong on my end
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13:06 < oldlaptop> citbl: What exactly was the misbehavior (?) you saw?
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13:07 < oldlaptop> pkg_add should refuse to install a "broken package", in the sense of having been corrupted or otherwise modified in transit to/on the mirror, because signature verification would fail.
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14:01 < citbl> yeah it died during extraction saying unexpected something
14:01 < citbl> but I don't recall seeing a download problem
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14:02 < citbl> it's probably user error
14:02 < pardis> did you try more than once?
14:02 < pardis> could easily be a transient network issue
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14:04 < citbl> it doesn't check the chksum before extracting?
14:05 < citbl> anyway it's late I've logged off
14:05 < eea> 
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14:05 < eea> oop
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14:06 < pardis> oh, yes, you're right I think
14:06 < pardis> but I would try more than once anyway
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14:29 < sonya> saying "unexpected end of archive".. saw that too, but didn't dig - if it's a download or extraction issue.. looks like download is broken due to various reasons.. change of mirror helps usually..
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15:03 < morpho> can openbsd be ran without swap?
15:04 < pardis> have you tried?
15:04 < pardis> (the answer is yes)
15:05 < RobbieAB> I always advise the scientific method to answer such questions... Hypothesise (that you can), test (try it), and observe the results. (Hopefully it works)
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15:06 < renaud> it works fine, you just need to have enough ram
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15:21 < thrig> the hypothesis would be that one can download more ram, and then
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15:31 < morpho> can/should
15:31 < morpho> it works fine so far
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15:33 < miah> does SoftRAM work on openbsd?
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16:28 < sonya> Летом россиянам будут доступны прямые перелеты примерно в 30 стран. В СССР при «железном занавесе» было в три раза больше таких направлений ... onon ...
16:28 < sonya> oh.. sorry
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16:33 < CosmicDJ> sonya: guess that's what happens when you invade other countries
16:33 < sonya> CosmicDJ: no politics here.. and i'm really sorry that missed a channel..
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16:41 < Bradipo> I'm not even sure what all the fuss is about, all I see is a bunch of \u0437\u0430\u043d\u0430\u0432\u0435\u0441\u0435
16:42 < Bradipo> Ugly and incomprehensible to be sure, lol.
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17:34 < jetpackjackson> Is there a drawing tablet remapper software like opentabletdriver on openbsd that'll work on wayland instead of just x? I have to rotate my tablet for left handedness and was wondering if there was something native
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19:04 < logic_roar> i could use some help, im trying to install openbsd (7.8) on a laptop, but, when i try to autoconf the wifi (iwm0), it complains that it cant load the firmware (iwm0: could not read firmware iwm-9000-46 (error 22)), even though the files appear to be in the mounted /etc/firmware
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19:28 < oldlaptop> (why 7.8? it will be, in commercial jargon, "EOL" in about five minutes)
19:29 < thrig> the laptop might have a close-but-not-quite variation on iwm, or something
19:30 < logic_roar> oldlaptop: it was the default version on the download page when i got it earlier today
19:30 < oldlaptop> In what context do you get this message? In the installer? In the installed/running system? If the former, what exactly do you mean by "the mounted /etc/firmware"?
19:30 < oldlaptop> ah, I'm already slipping - I thought 7.8 was the release *before* last
19:30 < oldlaptop> instead it will *be* the release before last in about five minutes :P
19:30 < oldlaptop> (release of 7.9 is imminent)
19:31 < quinq> 5
19:31 < quinq> 4
19:31 < quinq> 3
19:31 < quinq> 0
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19:31 < quinq> pastèque
19:31 < logic_roar> i get the message both in the boot logs and when trying to autoconf it in the installer
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19:32 < jetpackjackson> is it safe to chsh to fishshell? i used to use ksh but now im so used to fishshell again i dont think i can change again
19:32 < quinq> I don't have that firmware in /etc, is that a special package?
19:33  * oldlaptop would not suggest any chsh-ing of *root's* shell
19:33 < logic_roar> its just install78.img, from the website
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19:34 < logic_roar> when i exited to the live shell and went ls /etc/firmware, there was iwm-9000-46, the one its angry at
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19:39 < oldlaptop> That seems really odd. That firmware should *not* be present on the install medium, and unless I missed something big the installer won't attempt to run fw_update until almost at the very end of installation, in the installed system itself.
19:41 < logic_roar> is there any potential for a fix, or should i just try to find a diffrent solution?
19:42 < Bradipo> Finish the installation, plug in wired ethernet and run fw_update?
19:42 < cgnarne> it is the way
19:42 < logic_roar> yeah i guess
19:42 < logic_roar> lemme try
19:42 < jetpackjackson> oldlaptop: fair. maybe ill see if i can get used to ksh. im just gonna miss some features of fish, and for what?
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19:43 < oldlaptop> The root shell and jetpackjackson's shell don't need to be the same thing
19:43 < jetpackjackson> right right
19:43 < jetpackjackson> but i was reading stuff about like, tech minimalism or smth
19:43 < jetpackjackson> idk
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19:44 < Bradipo> You can use whatever you want for your own non-root user.
19:44 < Bradipo> It's just not recommended to replace the root shell.
19:44 < jetpackjackson> alright
19:45 < cgnarne> use whatever works for you, it's fine. but no touch root
19:45 < jetpackjackson> ok
19:45 < Bradipo> The amount of time spent logged in as root or using the root shell should be minimal anyway.
19:46 < hmjsp> ksh is pretty neat, the only thing i really needed is fzf for history as follows: https://paste.c-net.org/DanielleLength
19:46 < jetpackjackson> i also have ksh installed for generating my website (from when i was originally trying to use BSDs and such because i was persuaded) so im trying to see if i can get one removed
19:46 < hmjsp> maybe more self aware tab completion would be nice, but it's fast and i write posix rather than use bashisms
19:47 < hmjsp> jetpackjackson: minimalism for the sake of minimalism is a bit absurd
19:47 < hmjsp> goodhart's law and all
19:48 < oldlaptop> Specifically, it's not a good idea (in unix in general) to set a root shell that is not part of the "base system" (whatever the precise definition on your particular unix), because it's very awkward if something happens such that root's shell is unavailable or doesn't work.
19:48 -!- tribaal [~tribaal@ubuntu/member/tribaal] has quit [Client Quit]
19:48 < oldlaptop> On OpenBSD in particular packages won't be available until /usr and /usr/local are mounted.
19:48 < jetpackjackson> alright
19:49 < jetpackjackson> idk maybe i have too much time on my hands, or im overthinking, or...
19:49 < oldlaptop> I can't imagine it's wise to use anything other than a Bourne-oid shell either, which rules out one of the two options in /bin on OpenBSD (csh)
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19:50 < jetpackjackson> i just read things that say "use the defaults/minimal configs and you wont have to worry when accessing any computer" or stuff like that
19:50 < hmjsp> well just cause you read things doesn't mean you have to do them
19:50 < jetpackjackson> yeah...
19:51 < hmjsp> it's not a bad heuristic; i try to stick to openbsd base specifically because openbsd base is well curated and very sane (unlike say, arch's idea of base that includes the bare minimum and nothing useful)
19:51 < jetpackjackson> i was just wondering what everyone else used and like would i be a "poser" if i was daily-driving fish instead of ksh
19:51 < oldlaptop> That's a fair argument, which may or may not sway you. It's been made WRT text editors too, that you should learn vi instead of emacs because vi is "available everywhere".
19:52 < hmjsp> just who is gonna call you a poser ToT
19:52 < jetpackjackson> idk
19:52 < hmjsp> most ppl don't even know what openbsd is
19:52 < jetpackjackson> unix_surrealism did
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19:52 < jetpackjackson> but its gone now
19:52 < hmjsp> and at the end of the day, if it makes ur life easier it makes it easier
19:52 < jetpackjackson> true
19:52 < jetpackjackson> i just wonder 
19:52 < hmjsp> unix_surrealism seems full of trolls and they're highly ironic from my impression of them
19:52 < oldlaptop> Or (more convincingly) that it's a bad idea to set up aliases like rm='rm -i'.
19:53 < jetpackjackson> whether some of it is solutions for a problem that shouldnt exist, if i had made my system simpler
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19:53 < jetpackjackson> if that makes sense
19:53 < jetpackjackson> hmjsp: there were some good ppl there but it was wild at times
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19:54 < hmjsp> fish does solve a lot of problems tho
19:54 < hmjsp> mainly ease of use, good tab completion, etc
19:54 < jetpackjackson> like im also thinking about setting up znc again to use weechat because its more minimal but... idk. i think the job search is making me crazy
19:54 < jetpackjackson> hmjsp: yeah
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19:54 < hmjsp> i don't like it personally because i, personally, prioritise portability
19:54 < jetpackjackson> oh
19:55 < hmjsp> but that's my personal priortisation, not some Absolute Truth (TM)
19:55 < hmjsp> i think minimalism is fun but don't get bullied into it
19:55 < jetpackjackson> oh i found my ksh config
19:55 < jetpackjackson> from the last time i did all this lol
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19:56 < jetpackjackson> i wish i could connect other irc clients to the lounge, not just the webchat thingy
19:56 < Bradipo> "good tab completion" is a subjective thing.
19:56 < Bradipo> I cannot stand the tab completion stuff they put in most bash shells these days.
19:57 < oldlaptop> One subjective opinion on tab completion is that the only good completion is none at all.
19:57 < jetpackjackson> hmm why is LSCOLORS not working in my bsd vm
19:57 < Bradipo> And it's not bash per se, it's all the stuff in the environment.
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19:57 < oldlaptop> (see e.g. https://heirloom.sourceforge.net/sh.html)
19:57 < jetpackjackson> oh
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19:58 < hmjsp> Bradipo: i think the tab completion for commands is nice. like if im doing `pkg in` and press tab and get pkg install (on freebsd). other than that yeah a more minimal tab completion (only paths) is good
19:58 < oldlaptop> If OpenBSD ls(1) does "colors" under any circumstances at all, that's news to me.
19:58 < Bradipo> I like minimal tab completion for paths and command names.  I don't care about anything else.
19:59 < jetpackjackson> i like how fish has aliases that expand so i can have less typing while not losing memory/track of what a command is/cmd flags
19:59 < Bradipo> And I especially cannot stand when I press tab and it refuses to complete a name that I *KNOW* exists in the filesystem simply because it doesn't have an extention that the tab completion thinks I should be using with the command I'm running.
19:59 < hmjsp> i did not know any shells did that
19:59 < jetpackjackson> im reading the ls man page to find if theres something im missing
19:59 < Bradipo> e.g. if I have a file name archive.txt and I try to tab complete with the tar command on Linux it won't do it because it doesn't end in .tar!
19:59 < Bradipo> Try it on Linux with Bash.
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20:00  * oldlaptop wouldn't assume offhand that comes with "bash" as opposed to "bash as packaged by ubuntu by default" or whatever.
20:00 < thrig> the base ls(1) on OpenBSD is not janked with colors
20:00 < oldlaptop> But maybe it does. :(
20:00 < jetpackjackson> ok reading some searches, apparently theres "gls" and you can set an alias like ls='gls --color=auto'
20:01 < jetpackjackson> i dont feel like doing that tho
20:01 < Bradipo> oldlaptop: You're right, and that's what I said above... I said that it's not "bash per se".
20:01 < jetpackjackson> oh wait i dont need ls colors, i have a terminal file manager lol
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20:01 < Bradipo> It's the various vendors who ship bash on Linux.
20:01 < hmjsp> tangentially related; but i think proper computer education should be taught in schools instead of expecting computers to be, somehow, completely "user friendly" to the unprompted, because that's an impossible task. a computer is a specialised tool, so by its very nature, requires some sort of training or understanding to make use of. good docs and predictable behaivour is what should be strived for, not somehow preemptively reading the person's brain...
20:01 < hmjsp> that's what humans are for, xD
20:01 < Bradipo> They put all kinds of stuff in the bash-completions.
20:01 < oldlaptop> There's https://openports.pl/path/sysutils/coreutils if that's what you mean. Not part of OpenBSD.
20:01 < oldlaptop> colorls too
20:01 < hmjsp> the one thing computers have up on humans is predictability, and even that is ruined by supposedely "user friendly" design
20:02 < jetpackjackson> is there a way to get ksh to complete command names after doas?
20:02 < Bradipo> hmjsp: I just tried this no on Debian 11.3: touch archive.txt; tar tvf arch<TAB>
20:02 < Bradipo> And it doesn't work.
20:02 < hmjsp> oh gosh
20:02 < thrig> when windows wifi is going to do some wacky thing is not predictable
20:02 < Bradipo> It just halts.
20:02 < jetpackjackson> like if i do "doas pkg<tab>" it doesnt work but "pkg<tab>" gets me stuff
20:03 < Bradipo> Yeah, I can live with that. :-)
20:03 < oldlaptop> hmjsp: the... failings of modern schooling in various places is a very interesting and very very offtopic subject :P
20:03 < Bradipo> That makes sense because tab completion in ksh is simple model, and I like it that way.
20:03 < oldlaptop> I doubt you'll get much disagreement with "read the fine documentation" in OpenBSD circles.
20:03 < oldlaptop> least of all a manpage-redirection service like #openbsd. :)
20:04 < jetpackjackson> lol
20:04 < hmjsp> ofc... it's just most other circles don't have good documentation to begin with. openbsd truly opened my eyes to good design, it's the only os i'd be comfortable to use completely offline
20:04 < hmjsp> maybe with a download of the faq and that's all
20:04 < Bradipo> OpenBSD just has sensible design and tolerable defaults.
20:06 < oldlaptop> Some of the shade thrown at Linux-land documentation is either undeserved or overstated. The so-called "linux man-pages" are pretty good, but cover libc (or rather, linux being linux, "some libcs"), not user commands. GNU commands tend to have reasonably good documentation, but manual pages that are sadistic jokes because you're supposed to be using texinfo, like nobody else but gnu.
20:06 < Bradipo> Yeah, I cannot stand texinfo, sorry.
20:07 < thrig> function info { /usr/bin/info "$@" 2>/dev/null | $PAGER; }
20:07 < oldlaptop> Debian's heart is in the right place with the policy that *all* commands must have *a* manual page. (Unfortunately it is permitted to be a gnu manual page or help2man output, I guess as a concession to reality.)
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20:07 < hmjsp> it might be a bit overstated, maybe the man pages are "usable", but my subjective experience is that openbsd man pages are far more cohesive, concise and usable
20:08 < hmjsp> i am a very small sample size but that's just my personal preference :)
20:08 < jetpackjackson> fair
20:09 < jetpackjackson> ouch fishshell is the largest process on my vm
20:09 < jetpackjackson> i mean its like 14mb but still 
20:09 < jetpackjackson> lol
20:09 < jetpackjackson> ok yeah im definitely overthinking.
20:09 < oldlaptop> Certainly compared to gnu manual pages. Manual pages for genuine "linux tools" like e2fsprogs tend to be pretty reasonable. The manual pages you get for libc on a linux (i.e. linux man-pages) are pretty good - you could criticize them, but I don't think "less cohesive" or "less usable" would be among the problems (maybe "less concise", actually).
20:10 < oldlaptop> At bottom it's prose writing, which is a subjective art. :)
20:10 < Bradipo> Haha.
20:11 < quinq> I'd call those less accurate
20:11 < oldlaptop> (The "art" aspect is nowhere more obvious than perl documentation. I don't much like perl, but the core perldocs are *art*.)
20:11 < quinq> Because they don't document libc but glibc
20:11 < hmjsp> all programming is subjective art in that sense i guess, because code is less about getting the thing done and more about communicating how the thing is done effectively
20:11 < jetpackjackson> yooo if i do alt+s on a command in fish it prepends doas
20:11 < jetpackjackson> ok nice
20:12 < hmjsp> programming has definitely made me a more precise and surgical person when it comes to talking and debating
20:12 < oldlaptop> quinq: Less accurate in what sense? As compared to the C/POSIX specs?
20:12 < quinq> yes
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20:12 < oldlaptop> OpenBSD is very much open to that same exact charge - the manual pages document OpenBSD's C library, not the specs.
20:12 < quinq> To the name they have
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20:12 < oldlaptop> As I'd argue manual pages should.
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20:12 < quinq> That's very different
20:12 < quinq> And is what I pointed out
20:13 < Bradipo> jetpackjackson: I get that for free with ksh and vi-mode.
20:13 < quinq> 22:11:18  quinq$ Because they don't document libc but glibc
20:13 < jetpackjackson> ok cool
20:13 < Bradipo> jetpackjackson: You just press escape (command-mode), shift-i (insert at beginning) and type doas.
20:13 < oldlaptop> linux man-pages do have the problem that they can't actually just document libc, because there are other C libraries for linux. (You'd think that would mean each C library should write manual pages...)
20:13 < oldlaptop> *just document glibc
20:13 < jetpackjackson> i could also press home key but yeah i see your point
20:14 < hmjsp> Bradipo: ksh has emacs mode by default also, no? just ctrl+a and type doas
20:14 < quinq> oldlaptop, and yet they do
20:14 < jetpackjackson> oh wait i do have completion with doas pkg_delete
20:14 < Bradipo> hmjsp: Yeah, true, I don't use emacs mode.
20:14 < jetpackjackson> on fish
20:14 < jetpackjackson> interesting
20:14 < hmjsp> i migrated from vi mode to emacs mode because... i was trying to get into emacs
20:15 < jetpackjackson> ok ill just stick with fish and stop hopping around to different tools
20:15 < jetpackjackson> hopefully
20:15 < hmjsp> kinda horrible experience, a time sink tbh. i only wanted org mode. org mode neovim plugin is good enough
20:15 < hmjsp> jetpackjackson: yeah, less hopping and more doing is generally better. perfect is the enemy of good
20:19 < jetpackjackson> yeah
20:19 < jetpackjackson> idk why im getting the itch to mess around with openbsd again tho lol
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20:20 < Bradipo> Why did you stop using it in the first place?
20:20 < jetpackjackson> idk
20:21 < jetpackjackson> was thinking "am i just using this to be different? to try to look cool and cause i read too much analognowhere?"
20:21 < jetpackjackson> idk
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20:22 < hmjsp> well it's nice to experiment with OSes to see what one likes. like different flavours of ice cream
20:22 < hmjsp> try self hosting services as a project
20:22 < eea> the siren song of puffy
20:22 < tux0r> everyone knows that plan 9 is the holy grail of operating systems.
20:22 < jetpackjackson> yeah ive already done two servers with different OSes
20:22 < jetpackjackson> yeah i even tried plan 9
20:22 < jetpackjackson> i think that was what made me think "wait what am i even doing"
20:23 < jetpackjackson> sorry 9front not plan9
20:23 < hmjsp> lol
20:23 < eea> the perils of self awareness
20:23 < hmjsp> i havent had time to dive into it but it's good imo to think about proper, modern design of OSes. if only because they are clean and beautiful
20:23 < quinq> tux0r, you mix it with TempleOS
20:23 < hmjsp> the current mess ought to fall at some point, at least before the heat death of the universe...
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20:24  * eea gestures at #openbsd-social crickets
20:24 < jetpackjackson> oops
20:24 < jetpackjackson> did i do something wrong
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20:24 < hmjsp> os research is unfortunately dead because practical limitations of backwards compatibility
20:24 < eea> no
20:24 < tux0r> backwards compatibility is for the weak
20:25 < tux0r> 70s teletype emulator people
20:25 < hmjsp> eea: i didn't even know openbsd-social was a channel huh
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20:25 < eea> :)
20:25 < jetpackjackson> i think a limiting factor in my ability to run freebsd, openbsd or 9front was the freaking wifi chips...
20:25 < jetpackjackson> idk
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20:25 < hmjsp> tux0r: i agree, but le market and all
20:25 < jetpackjackson> maybe i should take a break, see yall later
20:26 < tux0r> hmjsp: the market would like us all to just support .exe natively
20:26 < hmjsp> buh bye jetpackjackson 
20:26 < tux0r> we don't. so ... 
20:26 < hmjsp> yeah i agree. not that we need to gaf about le market but in terms of practical adoption and yk actually using the os etc
20:27 < hmjsp> it's unfortunate normal people can't use a coherent os
20:27 < tux0r> "using the os" is weird phrasing IMO. you don't "use the os". ok, on plan 9, you probably do...
20:27 < hmjsp> yes, all we use is the web browser xD
20:28 < tux0r> or emacs, in my case - but you get the point, i see
20:29 < hmjsp> i only have a vague impression of plan9 but i wish we could just shatter the "modern web" and use actually networked OS like it
20:29 < quinq> You don't use the emacs, you live the emacs
20:29 < tux0r> normal people (ha! normal people on the internet?!) won't care about their "os". give them a browser and whatever atrocity they chose as their i-write-ugly-documents processor, done. no need for "backwards compatibility". give them a runtime that runs what they expect to, just shred everything else and make a shiny new foundation for the runtime.
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20:29 < tux0r> hmjsp: don't use the web. it is not mandatory.
20:30 < hmjsp> alas, it is
20:30 < hmjsp> well, tbf aside from mandatory websites, i don't use that many websites that need javascript or complex formatting
20:31 < tux0r> plan 9 has netsurf nowadays.- websites that don't work in netsurf are websites you shouldn't care about.
20:31 < hmjsp> tux0r: https://drewdevault.com/blog/Reckless-limitless-scope/
20:31 < hmjsp> why "new foundation for runtime" can't even happen
20:32 < hmjsp> fair lol.
20:32 < hmjsp> maybe i'll have dedicated plan9 box at some point when im more free
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20:33 < tux0r> ah, drew devault. everyone's favorite "existing software sucks, i reinvent it from first priciples, then i abandon it and write lengthy stuff about why i am the greatest developer on earth"
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20:33 < tux0r> nowadays, i usually don't even *open* the tab when his name is in the URL
20:33 < cgnarne> tux0r: mothra or bust
20:33 < tux0r> cgnarne: mothra lacks important features, like ... all features.
20:34 -!- emmanuelux [~em@user/emmanuelux] has joined #openbsd
20:34 < cgnarne> the lack of features is a feature
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20:36 < tux0r> the lack of the web is a feature
20:36 < hmjsp> tux0r: idk much about him but i resonated with this article in particular
20:37 < Bradipo> Never heard of Drew DeVault.
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20:38 < mischief> he made an os for ti calculators
20:38 < mischief> also sr.ht
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20:41 < avemestr> jetpackjackson: You can pkg_add colorls and setup an alias for ls if you want colorful ls output.
20:42 < avemestr> So "pkg_add colorls" and then add "alias ls='colorls -Ga'" in ~/.profile.
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