--- Log opened Tue May 26 00:00:28 2026
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02:04 < birddogg> great release guys,  got my fosi dac working well!
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12:20 < amencoda> here is a cool project: https://openriot.org/
12:21 < amencoda> "Linux desktops turned into a bloated, politicized mess? OpenRiot is the clean exit.
12:21 < amencoda> A ridiculously polished i3 desktop for OpenBSD 7.9 with fish, Helix, and Polybar — tuned so everything just works. No config drama. No package fights. No Linux copium.
12:21 < amencoda> Base OpenBSD 7.9 install → one script → fast, dark, beautiful desktop that respects OpenBSD’s strengths instead of fighting them."
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12:25 < pardis> oh good, another page with wrong and soon to be out-of-date information about OpenBSD on the web
12:26 < amencoda> It looks cool at least?
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12:28 < l4nc> Robust Binary — Atomic operations, rollbacks, zero dependency hell. - what is atomic operations?
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12:29 < pardis> I doubt you will find many OpenBSD users who are happy with wrong information as long as it's dressed up nicely
12:29 < amencoda> Is it the same as nuke-u-lar operations?
12:30 < pardis> their setup.sh script also does things that are wrong
12:30 < pardis> and they tell people to just pipe it straight to sh without reading it
12:30 < pardis> is this a joke?
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12:31 < amencoda> I believe it was a popular FreeBSD account that shared it Vermadun if I recall his name is...  Seems to have a good following
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12:32 < l4nc> Linux Atomic Desktops leverage the concept of atomic updates, which are already popular in server environments through Fedora’s Atomic Host. The idea is to treat the desktop as an immutable entity where updates and changes are applied in a single operation that can easily be rolled back if necessary. This approach minimizes disruptions and ensures that system modifications do not affect the overall stability.
12:33 < amencoda> Ah good to know
12:33 < l4nc> i didn't know that those 'atomic things' are in openbsd ?!
12:34 < pardis> they aren't
12:34 < pardis> I think the most generous interpretation is that this whole thing is written by an LLM
12:34 < pardis> less bad than a human being this wrong
12:34 < l4nc> this website is confusing 
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12:47 < lts> That website is absolutely created by an LLM
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12:48 < amencoda> How can you tell, aside from the automated text
12:48 < lts> Emojis, emdashes, uses "No X. No Y. No Z." syntax
12:48 < pardis> the hallucinations are a pretty big tell
12:48 < amencoda> AI hallucinates?
12:48 < pardis> hallucinating features of OpenBSD that don't exist, drivers of OpenBSD that don't exist, but somehow claiming supported hardware is unsupported
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12:49 < amencoda> Seeing as how you guys seem to know what you're talking about, would you avoid things written in Rust?
12:51 < citbl> ? no there are plenty of good rust programs
12:51 < amencoda> Because if it comes packaged with fish then that would be Rust
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12:51 < citbl> LSD, ripgrep, few others
12:51 < pardis> a programming language is a poor reason to avoid anything as a user
12:51 < pardis> if you have to be a maintainer, then perhaps it could be a good reason
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12:52 < amencoda> Well I was in a twitter space and people were talking about how rust's compiler can add undetectable backdoors to stuff...  They were talking about the push for ARCH to change their package manager to Rust to the tune of millions
12:52 < citbl> Maintaining Rust is easy if you're fluent in Klingon.
12:52 < l4nc> It could have been copied entirely from Linux version arch riot, that website also could be translated from other language
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12:53 < amencoda> I think it was 500 Million to change AUR
12:53 < amencoda> Pushed by the government there
12:55 < amencoda> I'd learn Rust, I've been learning Klingon in Duolingo for a year now
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12:58 < citbl> :) 
12:58 < citbl> The only time I like Rust is when I'm done with the project
12:58 < citbl> I have the same with OCaml, but I much prefer OCaml.
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13:00 < amencoda> citbl:  QaQ Dochvetlh 
13:01 < amencoda> (that's means "that's good")
13:02 < citbl> That reads like part of the source of the borrow checker
13:02 < amencoda> So I'm doing some cert traing this week and I need to set up an old desktop as a server, I figured I'd set up a webserver first but kinda torn on whether I should run OBSD or FBSD
13:03 < citbl> -_-
13:03 < amencoda> What
13:05 < amencoda> Do I go secure out of box or ease-of-use is the question
13:05 < quinq> Go both
13:05 < quinq> By using OpenBSD
13:05 < citbl> Personally I found openbsd to be the easiest 
13:05 < amencoda> Ah, interesting
13:05 < citbl> Less is more etc.
13:05 < amencoda> Yeah, I suppose that's true
13:05 < quinq> amencoda, how to have a web server in openbsd: # rcctl start httpd
13:07 < amencoda> Hmmm
13:07 < amencoda> Well I already worked out a firewall ruleset, think I will just try pf
13:08 < amencoda> That way it justifies me being here
13:08 < amencoda> and OpenBSD
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13:16 < henrix> pardis: "a programming language is a poor reason to avoid anything as a user" <<-- unless that language happens to be java!
13:18 < oldlaptop> Not really then either. (Although if you blur the line with "sysadmin" enough it can make sense.)
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13:45 < ffuentes> I wanted to install liquidsoap and its not packaged but needs OCaml compilation apparently and it needs a bunch of time to get it done I guess
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13:53 < IcePic> ffuentes: when building ports, one can ask it to try to pkg_add dependencies, so you dont have to start from zero
13:54 < IcePic> man ports -> search for FETCH_PACKAGES
13:54 < IcePic> (unless you live in southern hemisphere and have winter now and need to heat the house with compiling cmake and friends ;)
14:02 < broke> I do hear most people just do use openbsd for servers anyways, however many VPS not allowing you to do so, like they only allow Linux for some reason... (which I can make a guess). In any case, been here for some days, and I am a sysadmin, but of a Linux server, I feel like OpenBSD do fare better than any Linux distro, because of httpd (instead of nginx), smtpd (instead of the horrible postfix), there's no 
14:02 < broke> container systems *supported* in OpenBSD afaik, because OpenBSD people recommends chroot systems instead, which is Unix-like. Most of the services you are gonna host, your system and your style will be Unix-like.
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14:10 < broke> Also, is there a more in-depth guide or manual for working with ports, and well a question in particular was how to handle 3rd party patches not in the ports itself?
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14:12 < IcePic> broke: there is the porters handbook that has lots of docs about on how to make and update ports.
14:12 < IcePic> https://www.openbsd.org/faq/ports/index.html
14:12 < broke> thanks, that's a long read
14:12 < IcePic> and https://www.openbsd.org/faq/ports/testing.html
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14:15 < broke> oh so its the patches/ dir inside the make dir thanks
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16:13 < ffuentes> I'm not sure if there's a specific port for liquidsoap but thanks
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16:13 < ffuentes> broke: I have a few VMs in Vultr
16:14 < ffuentes> but yeah most even IT technicians don¡t even know what a BSD even is
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16:23 < lts> It's been rare to find a younger IT worker who knows more than how to click in a SaaS portal with one mouse button
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16:28 < quinq> lts, don't get me started
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16:31 < thrig> kids these days has been a rant from before the great oxidation event
16:31 < lts> That's because we've been worse every generation
16:33 < broke> lts: that's only because of negligible education.
16:39 < broke> or well, abstractive ways of teaching IT.
16:40 < broke> IT is a real struggle if when you take the 10th step, kinda like that.
16:40 < broke> but its a different world from there
16:43 < broke> The IT world today is full of users who are Help Vampires.
16:44 < thenightmail> i've got lots to learn. saw the pidp 11 which looks like an interesting kit
16:45 < thenightmail> it's a raspberry pi based pdp 11 kit
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16:45 < thenightmail> any tips on picking up the history of all this? for me I'm in my 20s and no one around me bothered to keep me up to date in my life time let alone before i was alive
16:46 < thenightmail> guess making friends is useful, people to learn with each other happens quite naturally.
16:46 < k0ga> about pdp11?
16:46 < broke> thenightmail: yeah, well first comes a web search, then comes other people.
16:46 < thenightmail> mm, it is not specific what I am asking... but yeah pdp 11 is something i didn't hear about till this year some how
16:48 < broke> oh, this is a legacy replica kit huh, cool
16:48 < broke> so you are gonna experience a physical terminal experience?
16:48 < thenightmail> i'm considering picking up that kit yes
16:49 < thenightmail> it is just a raspberry pi for the thing, so probably can check out emulators and such
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17:05 < thenightmail> a while ago i talked about anki. something i didn't consider, but is now blatant, is the entirety of anki for how i would use it can be replaced with some directories and version control. basically implementing the leitner system with the directories and committing review sessions. you can have cards of any media as just files in the directories.
17:06 < thenightmail> maybe with git it makes sense having daily weekly etc branches that are checked out and then the files are moved from branch to branch depending if you get it right or not.
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17:07 < broke> aren't anki stuff like decks? what about the physical ones/
17:07 < broke> ones?*
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17:08 < broke> ah right, not the same.
17:08 < broke> (my bad)
17:09 < thenightmail> the most interesting part of the anki is the algorithm that is used to schedule the cards, so that is left up in the air, but the leitner system seems good enough if you are dedicated you are bound to remember ...
17:09 < thenightmail> but yeah physical flashcards work too if that is what you meant
17:09 < broke> yeah that's what I meant
17:10 < broke> i think that's more worth than some computerized systems
17:12 < broke> (when it comes to learning languages, I pick 20-30 different books and go through them, instead of forcing yourself on some boring journey, you understand more than just vocabulary)
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17:13 < broke> these flashcards however are probably stuff like a daily game to fail to keep your vocabulary, after you have enough experience.
17:14 < broke> s/fail/pass/
17:15 < broke> I am not a native english person, I learned the letters --> grammar, only then I cared about more vocabulary.
17:16 < broke> (even then, I'm still bad at english, and I don't even care much.)
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17:20 < oldlaptop> thenightmail: If you are interested in UNIX history, specifically, some of the people who were there wrote about what they did at some length. DMR's old webpage is still online and has some interesting material, for example. https://www.nokia.com/bell-labs/about/dennis-m-ritchie/
17:22 < broke> dennis and ritchie!
17:22 < lts> Last I heard of Bell Labs in recent events was that they are trying to fix 2G mobile network vulnerabilities and hope any year now move to 3G
17:22 < thenightmail> dennis ritchie is a singular person
17:23 < thenightmail> thanks i'll look into that oldlaptop 
17:23 < broke> yeah I messed that up actually, cuz I always forget the second person oops
17:23 < broke> other person's name is harder to remember
17:23 < oldlaptop> I imagine Kirk McKusick is still giving his BSD history talk from time to time and/or selling the DVDs? (There are going to be numerous videos out on the net from conferences where he's given that talk/one of those talks)
17:24 < broke> lts: bell labs and friends live in the 2000s
17:24 < thenightmail> it's been a little while, but maybe you are thinking of k&r Kernighan and Ritchie
17:24 < broke> yeah and kernighan is harder to remember
17:25 < oldlaptop> Here's a rabbit hole for you: early background on spell(1) https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/363958.363994
17:25 < oldlaptop> er, wrong one (although that is also interesting)
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17:28 < oldlaptop> https://archive.org/details/development-of-spelling-list
17:29 < thenightmail> didn't think of this till just now, but downloading html pages locally and just putting them in a 'read-later' directory so that you can keep track of things you want to read. not sure if people do that or just bookmark things in a browser. bookmarks didn't ever really help me remember to read things
17:29 < broke> I bookmark links in a text file
17:30 < oldlaptop> that can be awkward with most modern web pages, that won't necessarily be able to get their images and CSS and javascript and...
17:30 < broke> stuff like this printf '%-80s\t%s' $note $link
17:30 < broke> and pipe to ~/bookmarks/any_random_name
17:30 < broke> direct*
17:31 < broke> then grep "stuff" bookmarks/any_random_name
17:31 < oldlaptop> https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-ports&m=177135789729224&w=2
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17:32 < broke> copy using my terminal's function alt+l, then open with a web browser.
17:32 < broke> in practice this is fast.
17:33 < broke> well, could also get a functionality like alt+o that hints links to open with a web browser on your terminal
17:34 < broke> (or because I use \t in my bookmarks, I actually pipe and xargs)
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17:34 < broke> there's another thing I also do that uses a script that opens up dmenu, that prints out the file and you choose the bookmark and it automatically opens in a web browser.
17:35 < sk> This morning I copied 2 modified files from a home dir (hostname.if and pf.conf) with user:user and 755 to /etc as root
17:36 -!- sk is now known as rIMpossible
17:36 < rIMpossible> ^^^^
17:36 < broke> why'd you change your nick lmao
17:37 < rIMpossible> I turned the machine of and this evening on again and was wondering, why it was not detected...
17:37 < rIMpossible> s/of/off
17:38 < rIMpossible> broke: reinstall vps and irssi, without re-copying a 0.8x config file ;)
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17:38 < broke> eh?
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17:39 < rIMpossible> broke: nothing important, really ...
17:39 < rIMpossible> irssi is at 1.4.5
17:44 < broke> yeah
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17:50 < rIMpossible> I remember, that if hostname.if has the wrong permissions and one wants to setup an i/f with wrong permissions, /etc/netstart is throwing an error msg and auto-correcting
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17:51 < thenightmail> yeah pretty sure it automatically fixed it for me
17:52 < IcePic> rIMpossible: it complains and "fixes it"
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18:01 < xoddf2> Why does xmodmap not work when I put it in ~/.xsession, even though it works when I run it manually?
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18:04 < cjs> xoddf2: Have you tried running it as part of a script?
18:04 < xoddf2> cjs: No
18:04 < IcePic> perhaps .xsession isnt being run?
18:04 < xoddf2> IcePic: The rest of ~/.xsession runs just fine.
18:04 < lts> $PATH not finding xmodmap?
18:05 < rIMpossible> IcePic: and pf.conf ?
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18:05 < xoddf2> lts: If that were the problem, it wouldn't be able to find cwm, etc, either.
18:05 < rIMpossible> IcePic: it hat root:usergroup and 755
18:05 < cjs> xoddf2: Try including it in a launch script, especially if you want an immediate workaround. Xsession stuff can be finnicky.
18:06 < rIMpossible> IcePic: s/hat/had
18:07 < rIMpossible> IcePic: even worse, it had user:user/755
18:08 < rIMpossible> and was not corrected
18:08 < thrig> then there are PHP forum postings that recommend chmod -R 777 to "fix things"
18:09 < rIMpossible> some kind of rm -rf / joke, eh?
18:09 < IcePic> almost
18:09 < lts> They were serious
18:10 < rIMpossible> One can install Windows 11, too. But should one?
18:11 < IcePic> nopes
18:11 < eea> can and should are two very different animals/verbs
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18:11 < eea> weird
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18:29 < broke> xoddf2: how does your .xsession file look like?
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18:55 < xoddf2> broke: https://xoddf.sdf.org/files/xsession.txt
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19:16 < broke> xoddf2: hmm, after logging in and you run the same command, the xmodmaps are loaded? before its not?
19:16 < broke> I dont see anything wrong with the .xsession file as far as I can tell.
19:17 < lts> Perhaps another xmodmap command later in the startup overrides the desired config
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19:32 < xoddf2> cjs: I tried that, and it still doesn't work.
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19:34 < broke>  xmodmap "$HOME/.xmodmaprc"?
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19:44 < xoddf2> broke: I put that in a separate script in ~/bin and then told ~/.xsession to run that.
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19:46 < broke> I'm sorry, what "doesn't work" actually? loading the xmodmap? isn't it?
19:46 < broke> hmm...
19:46 < broke> sorry the "it doesn't work" always gives me bad memories.
19:47 < xoddf2> broke: It doesn't run the expressions in ~/.xmodmaprc.
19:48 < broke> and when you run the xmodmap ~/.xmodmaprc afterwards xmodmap does?
19:48 < xoddf2> broke: Yes
19:52 < cgnarne> have you tried with ~ instead of $HOME?
19:53 < xoddf2> cgnarne: That does the same thing.
19:53 < broke> this seems like a known issue... I'm reading a bit more about it.
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20:07 < broke> sorry I don't seem to find a definite answer, but here's some trials, (sorry), move the # xmodmap just right before # tmux.
20:07 < broke> (ik)
20:07 < broke> I also think fcitx5 could also be the problem hmm...
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20:10 < broke> (I guess only way to know is to do smt myself, I use setxkbmaps instead myself though...)
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--- Log closed Wed May 27 00:00:30 2026