--- Log opened Fri Jul 24 00:00:31 2026
--- Day changed Fri Jul 24 2026
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07:19 < dettus> Good morning everyone!
07:19 < zelest> Morning!
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11:43 < dettus> So.... vortexx was kind enough to test my FPGA-related ports. 
11:43 < dettus> stu was kind enough to nitpick and give me pointers as to optimize them.
11:43 < dettus> What else is needed before they can become part of the official ports tree?
11:44 < dettus> More ok ? 
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11:48 < IcePic> dettus: guess someone (either sthen or someone else of the ports committers) needs to commit it then
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14:39 < Guest2520> hi? can you see this?
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14:40 < phy1729> yes
14:44 < chara`> awesome, emacs is hard to trust.
14:44 < chara`> how do i run a multiboot tftp server for multiple archs or with multiple kernels?
14:45 < chara`> i have arm64, armv7, i386 and amd64 kernels that i like to test my changes on, is there a way to tell the client to boot from a specfic kernel?
14:45 < chara`> i'm aware of boot.conf, but since tftp loads that file, changing it would load the same for all of them.
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14:48 < IcePic> perhaps some arches ask for files named after the mac address of the host
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14:51 < cgnarne> chara`: https://www.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/aicyxc/pxe_boot_multiple_architecture_and_os/
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15:03 < IcePic> I sometimes tftp, but I usually choose the names to be bsd.79.octeon and so on, and type it in
15:03 < IcePic> mostly for installs, so I don't need to set the name anywhere
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15:08 < IcePic> though I guess all u-boot platforms could set the name in the env and save it 
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15:36 < polarian> question, how many people here would refuse to attend an event if it was branded under FSF(E)? Would you attend an event if it was simply sponsored/supported by FSF(E)?
15:36 < polarian> I am finding it difficult to mix FOSS circles (FSF(E) endorsed) with BSD, because well... BSD folks tend to hate FSF(E)
15:37 < sibiria> i personally wouldn't care. my impression is also that the GPL-leaning crowd are more ideological and tyrant-like than the BSD crowd, whom i perceive as open and welcoming
15:39 < henrix> Also, there are lots of non-BSD folks that also hate FSF ;-)
15:39 < StatiK76> Depends who you talk to, and your tolerence.  Its more of a you thing.
15:39 < cgnarne> don't care. as long as the event/the talks are interesting
15:39 < StatiK76> :)
15:39 < Bradipo> I don't put that much importance on this level of ideology in the open source activities, organizations, initiatives.
15:40 < Foxy_> cgnarne: +1
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15:41 < sibiria> StatiK76: it sure is a suspiciously common "you" thing with the GPL corner
15:41 < Bradipo> I prefer OpenBSD because I perceive it to be "more free" but also better designed, and more true to Unix philosophy.
15:41 < sibiria> the very license itself, compared to e.g. 3-clause BSD and its similarities, screams unilateral thinking and non-freedom
15:41 < Bradipo> That and systemd, lol.
15:42 < sibiria> freedom doesn't come with "yes, except if..." or "yes, but only if...", which is some 99% of the GPL
15:42 < sibiria> its way, or the highway. not particularly free compared to BSD, MIT etc.
15:44 < ivdsangen> i think GPL is also good, but BSD/MIT is better
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16:06 < ssm_> gpl isn't strict enough, android and chromeOS happened
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16:06 < ssm_> so it just is kind of bad and incompatible
16:07 < ssm_> I like this https://paste.sr.ht/~boringcactus/ed023ccf9d7a5559612d6e60f0474d6c3375349d
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16:09 < ssm_> personally OpenBSD is only a real true free market democracy if the highest bidder can lobby for kernel diffs
16:12 < sibiria> https://i.imgur.com/FC619KD.jpeg
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16:13 < ssm_> sibiria: cool analogy, until the friend is an international pedocorp that will stop at nothing to make your project irrelevant lest you become the standard instead of something serving capital
16:14 < ssm_> or if you're linus and just go along with it
16:14 < thrig> softbank funds $someone to ruin your free market thing
16:16 < sibiria> ssm_: the situation works in similarly displeasing ways for BSD-licensed software. the GPL can take any and all of it and give nothing back, unless the original project agrees to the terms and change their ways
16:17 < sibiria> "you're totally free to relicense your entire project underl the GPL, too. nothing stops you"
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16:19 < sibiria> which is my main gripe with the GPL. it takes all freedom away from the very authors of software, tying their hands behind their backs, in order to provide full freedom for the users of the software
16:20 < sibiria> inherently disharmonic and destructive
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16:31 < StatiK76> it sounds like your issue may be with the BSD license ... Can't fault for it being used as it was intended. I understand what you are saying tho ...
16:32 < ssm_> I don't like the gpl, I just don't like permissive either (maybe even less). bad management can't be fixed with a license, nor should it try to. but in a similar vein, giving free access to anyone is just a laizze-faire market argument that ignores material reality with economic structures that have much more power to platform themselves with your stolen project and push the original into obscurity. I don't 
16:32 < ssm_> think this is an exception, if there's a threat to the control of capital you will be shot. if you revoke their access with something like FAFO, you're now the standard (until they stack the courts and decide FAFO doesn't work, but hey it'll radicalize people some). gpl is "disharmonic and destructive", and this is partly because it failed in its goal due to failed material analysis on part of rms (imo) 
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16:32 < ssm_> which cares more about vague freedom ideology than actually implementing defenses against predatory power structures (and more importantly linus). the cisco lawsuit is often cited but that's really all they have
16:32 < ssm_> ow textwall
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16:35 < sibiria> StatiK76: i have no issue at all with the BSD/MIT/etc. licenses. i like them precisely for how free they are. my dislike really is for the GPL because it does not give back what it assimilated from outside
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16:37 < sibiria> it takes unconditionally, but gives back only under specific conditions
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16:42 < ssm_> interesting opinion on google, but what about the gpl?
16:42 < ssm_> what does it take exactly?
16:43 < ssm_> you can't relicense MIT either
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16:47 < dominick72_97> sibiria: ok but that's a problem with bsd allowing relicensing. gpl isn't the only license that comes with more restrictions
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16:56 < echelon> there's a berkeley db api embedded into libc?
16:57 < sibiria> dominick72_97: i can't understand why anyone would see it as a problem. i see it as a benefit, because it allows software to spread and be used freely in any direction. in contrast the gpl is restrictive, even if the beneficiary is another free and open source project where the source material will remain open and free to use
16:59 < sibiria> ssm_: well yes and no. you can relicense the full project and your own supplemental work, but you can't revoke the MIT license from the specific parts it ascribed
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17:00 < ssm_> so what does gpl steal from open source developers in this case? if it's permissive licenses, what benefit does this grant me?
17:00 < sibiria> MIT isn't an ideal example of how the GPL absorbs without giving back on same terms, but that doesn't change anything about the GPL itself
17:05 < sibiria> ssm_: it takes away the original authors' say in how their software is to be licensed and made available to others
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17:06 < ssm_> the former is still true for MIT or ISC or anything but public domain; cannot be relicensed. what's the value of the second part?
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17:09 < sibiria> 2-, 3- and 4-clause BSD allows for relicensing. you just need to retain copyright notice and attribution
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17:12 < sibiria> it's on the whole similar to the case with MIT. you don't get any of the new development back on the same terms
17:12 < ssm_> yes, removing attribution would require relicensing, so leaving attribution is just following the license. maybe that's pedantic but it's not worth bikeshedding on. I'm more interested in <what is made more available to others>
17:12 < sibiria> it goes in, evolves, and then it remains there without ever coming back
17:17 < sibiria> ssm_: your question is in essence whether software that's freely usable (even in closed-source products) makes itself more available, than software usable only under a lot of conditions, no?
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17:30 < ssm_> originally what you said about the gpl was <it takes unconditionally, but gives back only under specific conditions>, so what it seems to take is my ability to relicense/only follow attribution/bikeshedding (to something more permissive than the gpl? I'm asking the material benefits of this permissiveness outside of 'freedom')
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17:31 < ssm_> also have to be back in an hour, just got tasked with picking cousin up from airport -_-
17:31 < echelon> have fun
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17:43 < dominick72_97> sibiria: sure but i mean you can't complain about people licensing their work using gpl or whatever when you grant them that permission. i agree that it's a dick move but that's on you to prevent
17:43 < sibiria> ssm_: better conditions for the birth of usable software and hardware, essentially. even in the regrettable case that the software is closed-source
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17:47 < sibiria> dominick72_97: it really is not a complaint about people's use of their freedom. it's their choice. my gripe is the license itself. if we/anyone were to try prevent it, for example by *not* using the BSD license, then we yield absolute freedom. i think that's a bad move
17:49 < dettus> I used to publish my software under the GPL, but it has way too much text. So I switched to BSD-2-clause.
17:50 < dettus> So much quicker to read through! :) 
17:50 < dominick72_97> that's fine but the bsd isn't absolute freedom anyway. it has its own set of restrictions (like attribution)
17:51 < sibiria> ...restrictions which are completely inconsequential to the refinement and further development of software
17:51 < dettus> That is precisely what licenses are for! :D 
17:51 < sibiria> the attribution etc. requirements don't affect how permeable the source code is
17:52 < dettus> "Here is my program, have fun with it, but please do not use it for evil." would be my ideal license.
17:52 < sibiria> could've potentially halted google in their tracks, in the early days
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17:59 < dominick72_97> in my view the bsd licenses are fine if you don't care what others do with it while the gpls are for ensuring you can use others changes (it's more nuanced than that but whatever)
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18:02 < dominick72_97> dettus: have you heard of jslint granting ibm the ability to use their software for evil? it's kinda funny
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18:13 < oldlaptop> echelon: "Berkely DB" is... related to dbopen(3)
18:14 < oldlaptop> or rather "Berkeley DB" is.
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18:17 < StatiK76> dettus: then ... who is the arbitor of 'evil' ?
18:19 < cgnarne> the original author of the code
18:20 -!- BillyZane2 [~BillyZane@user/BillyZane] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
18:20 < cgnarne> like in the fafo license
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18:24 < thrig> IBM did provide some cattle cataloging services to certain governments
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18:31 < seninha> One thing i find funny in GPL is: you must not modify someone's interacive software to not show the annoying legalese warning
18:31 < seninha> “If the [original] work has interactive user interfaces, each [modified work] must display Appropriate Legal Notices; however, if the [original] Program has interactive interfaces that do not display Appropriate Legal Notices, your [modified] work need not make them do so.”
18:31 < seninha> -- GPLv3
18:33 < seninha> that's why you should alias gdb="gdb -q"
18:33 < seninha> (or just lldb)
18:33 < thrig> some software you need to recompile to shut up the welcome text
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18:36 < seninha> thrig, that's ilegal!
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18:36 < seninha> (although not so for personal use; and even if redistributed i doubt fsf will put lawyers after you)
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18:39 < thrig> what passes for Mac OS X these days you have to disable System Integrity Protection to make the notification system die as it should
18:43 < sibiria> works ok to disable notifications in the system settings. gets rid of more or less all of it. but the daemon still idles in the background, of course
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18:44 < vortexx> there is a license out there that tries to define evil: ethical open source, by quite the lunatic. It's not gotten any traction that I've seen. Evil being defined as "anyone I don't like"
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18:55 < vortexx> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organization_for_Ethical_Source Hippocratic License, there we go
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18:56 < chara`> cgnarne: say i have loaded pxeboot file, how can i tell openbsd bootloader to load some other kernel?
18:56 < chara`> i guess u-boot helps for arms.
18:57 < StatiK76> boot> tftp:/bsd.rd
18:57 < chara`> cant we somehow automate that?
18:58 < chara`> i mean, i can type it, but if i try to automate it via boot.conf, that will get loaded by all tftp clients (amd64 and x86)
18:59 < dettus> So, I am a little bit rusty when it comes to TFP.
18:59 < dettus> TFTP. (sorry)
18:59 < cgnarne> not sure this will work with stock openbsd
18:59 < dettus> But, as far as I know: There are two services needed for a a tftp server: tftpd and dhcpd.
19:00 < cgnarne> you may have to try ipxe instead of openbsd pxeboot
19:00 < dettus> IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY, you can set the filename in the dhcpd configuration, based on the mac address.
19:00 < dettus> (the filename for the tftp boot).
19:02 < vortexx> in the good old days when a vendor controlled an arch, like sparc or hppa, you could do stuff with the mac adress of the client to identify which kernel etc it needed
19:02 < vortexx> with arm64, amd64, riscv etc we don't have that unfortunately
19:04 < vortexx> chara`: can't you rename the pxeboot file for each arch and use dhcpd to push out the right one per mac address?
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19:06 < dettus> begin 644 dhcpd.conf
19:06 < dettus> M,#L@8V%T(&-O;F9I9W,O9&AC<&0N8V]N9B`*;W!T:6]N("!D;VUA:6XM;F%M
19:06 < dettus> M92`B;7DN<W5B;F5T(CL*;W!T:6]N("!D;VUA:6XM;F%M92US97)V97)S(#$Y
19:06 < dettus> M,BXQ-C@N,2XS+"`Q.3(N,38X+C$N-3L*86QL;W<@8F]O='`["G-U8FYE="`Q
19:06 < dettus> M.3(N,38X+C$N,"!N971M87-K(#(U-2XR-34N,C4U+C`@>PH);W!T:6]N(')O
19:06 < dettus> M=71E<G,@,3DR+C$V."XQ+C$["@H)<F%N9V4@,3DR+C$V."XQ+C$P,"`Q.3(N
19:06 < dettus> M,38X+C$N,3(W.PH*"6AO<W0@<W1A=&EC+6-L:65N="!["@D):&%R9'=A<F4@
19:06 < dettus> M971H97)N970@,3(Z,S0Z-38Z-S@Z.6$Z8F,["@D)9FEL96YA;64@(FYE=&)O
19:06 < dettus> M;W0N86UD-C0B.PH)"69I>&5D+6%D9')E<W,@,3DR+C$V."XQ+C(P,#L*"0EN
19:06 < dettus> M97AT+7-E<G9E<B`Q.3(N,38X+C$N-#<["@D);W!T:6]N(')O;W0M<&%T:"`B
19:06 < dettus> M+VYF<VUO=6YT(CL*"0EA;'=A>7,M<F5P;'DM<F9C,3`T."!T<G5E.PH)?0H)
19:06 < dettus> M:&]S="!S=&%T:6,M8VQI96YT('L*"0EH87)D=V%R92!E=&AE<FYE="`Q,CHS
19:06 < dettus> M-#HU-CHW.#HY83IB8SL*"0EF:6QE;F%M92`B;F5T8F]O="YA<FTV-"(["@D)
19:06 < dettus> M9FEX960M861D<F5S<R`Q.3(N,38X+C$N,C`Q.PH)"6YE>'0M<V5R=F5R(#$Y
19:06 < Bradipo> Wow... that's something that belongs in a paste site.
19:06 < dettus> an example dhcpd.conf I just through together :)
19:06 < dettus> it is uuencoded.
19:06 < Bradipo> Apparently.
19:06 < cgnarne> please don't do thst
19:06 < cgnarne> that
19:07 < dettus> Okay. Apologies! :) 
19:08 < dettus> Regardless: That configuration WorksOnMyMachine(tm). (With the proper MAC-Addresses, of course)
19:09 < dettus> Hopefully, it helps!
19:09 < Bradipo> Helps with what?
19:11 < dettus> The tftpd question with the filenames used for tftpboot. 
19:11 < chara`> vortexx: how will that help?
19:11 < chara`> i mean the problem isnt loading pxeboot, its what kernel pxeboot will load
19:12 < Bradipo> The data is truncated.
19:12 < Bradipo> Not going to help anyone in that state. :-)
19:13 < dettus> really sorry... just getting used to IRC again...
19:13 < dettus> Err... I can post the cleartext?
19:13 < sibiria> use a pastebin
19:13 < sibiria> paste.debian.net or so
19:13 < StatiK76> oh boy... 
19:14 < sibiria> what people want to avoid are long walls of text from a single huge paste
19:14 < thrig> and a ruthless devotion to the pope
19:14 -!- carlomonte [~carlomont@user/carlomonte] has quit [Quit: carlomonte]
19:14 < StatiK76> hah!
19:15 < sibiria> and bills. bills, bills, bills, and taxes!
19:16 < dettus> https://paste.debian.net/hidden/5de2c3c6
19:16 < chara`> i think that ended up being shorter than base64 form of it
19:16 < chara`> err, uuencode.
19:17 < dettus> Yes, again... I apologize!
19:17 < chara`> its okay. :-)
19:17 < chara`> do you share a fs for two archs?
19:17 < cgnarne> chara`: just boot everything with a 386 kernel. who needs more than 4G of RAM?
19:17 < thrig> and then you learn that the Windows install system hijacks DHCP requests on your network making it impossible (unless you pull the network cable on the windows host) to boot install your own systems
19:18 < vortexx> chara`: well... if you recompiled (non-trivial, I know) pxeboot to ask for something else than bsd or bsd.rd you could then have a pxeboot per arch that asks for an arch specific named kernel
19:18 < cgnarne> i'm not sure you can do diskless for both 386 and amd64 on the same network
19:18 < chara`> vortexx: that could work but i wonder if i can add support of something like loading /etc/boot.$MAC.conf
19:18 < vortexx> from pxeboot(8): Since amd64 systems boot up as i386 systems, their PXE ROMs typically set the PXE client system architecture to be the same as for i386.  This means that the DHCP option vendor-class-identifier cannot, therefore, be used to distinguish between i386 and amd64 systems.
19:18 < chara`> plan 9 has that nifty feature.
19:18 < vortexx> that's intriguing
19:19 < vortexx> could vendor-class-identifier be used for arm64 & riscv?
19:19 < cgnarne> that's because the plan9 pxeboot loads a config for the mac of each client
19:20 < chara`> yup. (and i want to see if i can get that for openbsd's libsa?'s as well)
19:20 < cgnarne> i boot 386, amd64 and arm64 from the same file server
19:20 < mischief> there's undocumented magic in dhcpd for this
19:20 < chara`> oh?
19:21 < chara`> apperently undocumented and secret :p
19:21 < mischief> https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=167883676009335&w=2
19:23 < chara`> um. what does it do exactly?
19:24 < mischief> allows matching user-class and vendor-class dhcp client options, changing what you send back
19:24 < mischief> for example, sending different loaders and dhcp options to different architectures
19:25 < vortexx> yeah that's what I thought for the second option seeing Arch is in there
19:25 < vortexx> now can you do it for multiple OSes too? :)
19:25 < chara`> i see.
19:25 < mischief> i've booted netboot.xyz with this
19:26 < mischief> (which is just fancy ipxe)
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19:26 < vortexx> the fun you embedded people have at work
19:26 < mischief> vendor-class is just undocumented
19:26 < mischief> and the vendor-encapsulated-options i had to dig out of obscure intel PXE documents
19:27 < mischief> (and debug edk2, yuck)
19:27 < Bradipo> PXE boot has to be one of the blackest arts there is in computing.
19:28 < cgnarne> yes. it's basically voodoo
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19:29 < cgnarne> mischief: but how does that solve diskless booting for chara`?
19:31 < mischief> probably need a loader other than pxeboot(8), like ipxe
19:32 < cgnarne> i looks like ipxe can't boot openbsd
19:32 < cgnarne> and even if, this falls apart when mounting the nfs root
19:34 < mischief> i am pretty sure ipxe can boot openbsd
19:35 < cgnarne> i see two options here. boot everything with the 386 kernel or put 386 and amd64 machines in separate networks with dedicated servers for nfs and tftp
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19:37 < thrig> or have a database (text file whatever) with MAC and details and build MAC address specific configs for each host
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19:58 < cgnarne> mhm. thinking about it, if ipxe can boot the openbsd kernel and you supply the right configs for bootparams this can work
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23:14 < kn> mischief: it'd welcome dhcpd.conf.5 additions, snippets in EXAMPLES or /etc/examples/ would be great, too
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--- Log closed Sat Jul 25 00:00:52 2026