--- Log opened Tue Aug 04 00:00:07 2026
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00:02 < polarian> dg: I think the difference also is that on BSD's our ports are reviewed by many eyes, unlike some random bash script from some random developer online 
00:02 < polarian> and I think this is the same reason the AUR keeps being hit so badly
00:02 < polarian> AUR is a bunch of random PKGBUILD's which people compile and install without reviewing 
00:02 < polarian> when you install a package on OpenBSD, FreeBSD etc you know its been reviewed
00:03 < polarian> however I really dont like the idea of @exec either, maybe some feature to prompt before executing the command would be useful :p
00:04 < polarian> but then again, if you are paranoid just compile the port from source after reviewing it, I guess thats the only true way to trust it :p
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00:57 < oldlaptop> most of linux outside arch-land reviews the packages too - even the AUR is explicitly a sort of second-class citizen (not that this seems to stop it being absolutely universally used)
00:59 < oldlaptop> debian has something on the order of a couple thousand (?) people who are theoretically connected via some kind of in-person interaction to their PGP web, and one of them has to review everything
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01:01 < oldlaptop> maybe that's starting to get big enough to wrap around to "needs more review", but then again it seems better than something like AUR (where, realistically, the relatively small size of the group of "reviewers" for the part that's actually "reviewed" contributes to that part being too small and therefore hey, download your random malware from AUR)
01:01  * oldlaptop is deeply impressed openbsd does as well as it does with the scope of the ports tree
01:06 < martian67> the disclaimers are right there on AUR
01:06 < martian67> it never claimed to be something it wasn't
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01:16 < oldlaptop> Indeed. It strikes me as kind of a special case of "optional security is irrelevant".
01:18 < oldlaptop> it's not that anyone ever tries to hide that turning off the security feature, or clicking past the security warning, or whatever, might have consequences (except maybe whoever did it, and doesn't want to be blamed for them, after the fact)
01:18 < oldlaptop> it's just that, rounding down, nobody cares about them until it's too late
01:25 < mischief> never understood arch users. i use gentoo and debian, but i'd say gentoo is closer to openbsd ports model
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02:03 < deimosBSD> I use arch when it's not a bsd
02:04 < deimosBSD> and I run my own aur and compile everything from source
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02:06 < deimosBSD> same with ports on bsd's
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02:07 < pardis> compiling unreviewed code from source doesn't really make much difference to security
02:08 < deimosBSD> which is why i review it
02:08 < deimosBSD> what else are llms for?
02:08 < pardis> you must have a huge amount of free time or use very few programs
02:08 < deimosBSD> ;)
02:08 < deimosBSD> i use very few programs
02:08 < deimosBSD> same with my coding, very few external deps
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02:10 < deimosBSD> minimalism is more than a marie kondo trend
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10:24 < alem> hello, first time using openbsd. How should i setup automatic updates on my server? Is there something like unattended updates on debian?
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10:26 < rkta> alem: Just use cron, I guess.
10:27 < ssm_> syspatch(8) inside crontab(5) is how I'd do it. how to actually tell if a patch requires a reboot without janky string parsing... exit code can't do it
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10:27 < ssm_> maybe just reboot anyways since that's the simplest way to make sure all patched processes are also restarted
10:27 < ssm_> s/patched/stale/
10:28 < alem> mh so there is no standard way to do it
10:28 < ssm_> sysupgrade will log to smtpd
10:28 < alem> thanks guys, i will try setting up a cron job
10:29 < sibiria> i use a cronjob to check for updates and mail me if any are available, for both syspatches and package updates
10:29 < rkta> I just run a syspatch -c; pkg_add -un in cron and do it manually
10:29 < sibiria> syspatch -c is what i do
10:30 < sibiria> for pkg_add it gets a bit "greppy"
10:30 < sibiria> sh -c '[ -n "$(pkg_add -us | grep -vi -e ^quirks -e ^/dev/)" ] && <do something here>
10:30 < alem> sibiria: that sounds extremely useful
10:31 < sibiria> ... and a missing ' at the end
10:31 < alem> sibiria: im kind of a noob on this topic, how do you send mails? never really messed with this type of stuff
10:34 < sibiria> echo 'blah blah' | mail -s 'subject here' alem
10:34 < sibiria> presuming "alem" is your local user
10:34 < rkta> alem: cron sends local mail by default, just add an alias to /etc/mail/aliases
10:35 < sibiria> i run these with cron's -n option, so that i get just my own custom mail and not cron's auto-generated thing
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10:35 < alem> very cool, I'm going to look this up
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10:38 < sibiria> specifically my two cron entries for this are these: https://paste.debian.net/plainh/134839b4
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10:49 < alem> sibiria: I'm going to copy your crontabs with no shame
10:49 < alem> thank you so much
10:49 < c0co> kiss cron 
10:49 < c0co> for it loves you too
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11:32 < alem> i hate pf on freebsd, openbsd's version is much cleaner
11:46 < c0co> openbsd is just better
11:48 < alem> i would use it on my server but it lacks jails
11:48 < alem> kind of a deal breaker for me
11:49 < alem> and zfs too
11:50 < sibiria> has pledge/unveil, and basic virtual machines
11:51 < sibiria> but file system remains slow
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11:58 < alem> sibiria: but pledge/unveil is on the dev side, right?
11:58 < alem> while with jails the user is in control
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12:01 < sibiria> yes, it's in the application itself. the available user-alternative is to chroot before executing. it's clumsy and not fully comparable to jails, but it offers some solution to isolating a process
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12:06 < alem> i get the hype, i use an openbsd vps as a wireguard VPN host and it's lovely. But i just cant replace my freebsd home server sadly
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12:08 < sibiria> not sure it's hyped. if anything it is mostly underwhelming compared to what freebsd and linux has. exception being pledge and unveil, which is getting the attention it deserves
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12:34 < vortexx> 
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12:34 < vortexx> https://undeadly.org/cgi?action=article;sid=20260804054218 vmm/vmd changes need testing
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12:40 < quinq> it werks
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15:47 < rcdecv> pledge/unveil being on the dev side is the whole point, right?
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15:52 < oldlaptop> the appropriate analogy really is the "permissions" system on e.g. Android
15:53 < oldlaptop> an "app" can say it needs permission to read contacts, use the microphone, whatever - and a program can say it needs to call these sets of system calls
15:55 < rcdecv> What I meant is: pledge/unveil, being on the dev side, puts the onus on devs to think about the code they are writing and which permissions it really needs to accomplish its tasks
15:56 < rcdecv> It pushes devs to write good code
15:56 < rcdecv> I’m saying that, I’m not a dev.
15:56 < sibiria> it gives them an incentive to do so, at least. they can opt out if they want to
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15:58 < oldlaptop> It was a definite theme around the time of the Great Pledging that developers found it helpful for understanding what the program does
15:59 < thrig> or you find that some programs are not really possible to pledge and maybe you should move away from them
15:59 < thrig> as an exploit to, say, rsync may grant the attacker network access, filesystem access, arbitrary command access
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16:03 < rcdecv> do ports man pages usually precise to which extent the programs are pledged?
16:03 < phy1729> The makefile generally has a comment
16:04 < oldlaptop> I think they (the installed manual pages) are normally not patched/altered at all.
16:04 < oldlaptop> (including not attempting to write them when upstream doesn't provide any)
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16:04 < cgnarne> yeah, you have to check the makefile or the patches 
16:05 < oldlaptop> for pledge specifically you "shouldn't" have to care, in theory, if everything went well
16:06 < oldlaptop> (in practice there's firefox)
16:06 < quinq> Stop writing forbidden words
16:06 < cgnarne> Firefox is annoying but that's because of unveil
16:06 < oldlaptop> unveil can also be awkward with things like browsers that porters see... obvious value in shackling more than they're designed to be shackled
16:07 < oldlaptop> I guess pledge in firefox is settled down some. At one time it was relatively common to use the configuration knobs that needed to be there
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16:15 < ssm_> I've seen theo and some other prominant(?) security researcher complain about firefux's security architecture
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16:16 < pardis> what security architecture?
16:16 < ssm_> :S
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16:18 < sibiria> the most glaring issues with firefox were real some 10 years back. it's nowhere near as bad the past few years. but bad news tend to be sticky
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16:20 < rcdecv> is there better though
16:20 < ssm_> mothra
16:20 < sibiria> chromium (ungoogled such). but it has its annoyances, too
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16:22 < pardis> depends on your goals whether anything can qualify as better
16:22 < pardis> dillo is better from a security point of view, but useless if you want to render the "modern" web
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16:23 < ssm_> mothra > ( chiron probably haven't used it > ) links -g > netsurf > dillo > *
16:24 < pardis> you forgot the all-time champion, mosaic
16:24 < ssm_> >>>>> khtml > gtkwebkit
16:24 < quinq> What about the LLM-hallucinated Ladybird?
16:25 < ssm_> xombrero
16:25 < cgnarne> xombrero was nice
16:26 < quinq> xombrero is webkitgtk
16:27 < oldlaptop> in some respects dillo and the like are concerning, simply because they don't have the same degree of auditing effort going in to them
16:27 < oldlaptop> maybe there's whole categories of surface that don't exist, but what still does exist isn't all very well-mapped
16:27 < quinq> They also don't have the same degree of intrusion vectors
16:28 < oldlaptop> (with that said, probably the most likely categories of threat, given the whole security-through-obscurity thing, are those that are shared with "big" browsers like buggy image parsers - and of course those *do* get all the same scrutiny)
16:28 < ssm_> it'd be very hard to find a non-targeted attack that would effect dillo. security through obscurity is flawed but in this case unless you're an individual of high interest you're definitely less safe on chrome or firefox compared to dillo
16:29 < ssm_> with pledge and unveil? i dunno
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16:29 < ssm_> I love meaningless 0 research vibe analysis!
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16:30 < quinq> Well, for something as complex (in the bad sense) as a web-browser, I'm not sure pledge/unveil really help, as you have to allow virtually everything for it to work anyway
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16:32 < Bradipo> I often just disable unveil/pledge for firefox, but sometimes I stick with the defaults.  It can be annoying.
16:33 < rcdecv> any idea why tor browser is based on firefox rather than chromium?
16:35 < quinq> Maybe because there are less risk of intentionally leaking info from firefox than chromium (but that's just an idea as you requested)
16:35 < rcdecv> oldlaptop: what do you mean by security through obscurity in regard to dillo?
16:36 < oldlaptop> The user base rounds down to zero, and therefore the number of attacks in the wild targeted at them probably actually is zero.
16:36 < quinq> Maybe not obscurity but niche targets
16:36 < rcdecv> is it still maintained?
16:36 < oldlaptop> Obscurity, but not necessarily the sense meant when the phrase was coined
16:37 < oldlaptop> dillo went through a... "rough patch", but is now maintained again. You need to be careful you don't get the old domain name that lapsed and got picked up by a squatter.
16:38 < ssm_> cdn.openbsd.org is a squatter domain? O_O
16:39 < oldlaptop> https://dillo-browser.org/dillo.org.html
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16:43 < rcdecv> Have there been attempts to do some kind of nixos/guix on an OpenBSD basis? Does that even make sense?
16:45 < ssm_> yes. please see changelist(5)
16:48 < ssm_> less shitposterly, nix is (was? can't find it...) ported. I think nix an antipattern that's useful on a system like openbsd that has a smaller userspace with well-defined locations you should back up
16:48 < ssm_> s/useful/less &/
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16:49 < ssm_> I have a relative that uses nix and wouldn't be able to use any other linux distribution because they only know nixconfig dsl
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16:49 < Bradipo> changelist(5) is quite useful, as is mtree(8).
16:50 < ssm_> when the solution to the problem is writing a giant config abstraction layer on top of the official configuration, I want my problem back
16:50 < ssm_> not to mention completely throttling FHS, for whatever that's worth
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16:56 < pardis> unfortunately that describes modern operating systems in general
16:56 < pardis> today's hardware would be horrendous to use without the abstraction layer the kernel provides
16:58 < rcdecv> interesting
16:59 < ssm_> all webshit no brakes
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17:26 < onuelito> hello
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17:29 < onuelito> channel dead?
17:30 < Bradipo> Don't ask for permission to ask a question.
17:30 < onuelito> channel alive :)
17:30 < dkeav> but should you question to ask a question about permissions...hmmmm
17:31 < sonya> dillo is a great base for plugins, even shell-code works.. :)
17:31 < thrig> who questions the question asking asker
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17:32 < dkeav> clearly the permissioner
17:34 < onuelito> I tried a bit dillo but I prefer netsurf
17:36 < dkeav> i kinda miss netscape :/
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18:07 < carlomonte> dont ask any questions (like channel dead?), or dont ask for permission to ask?
18:08 < carlomonte> define recursivity
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18:38 < onuelito> adios
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21:11 < onuelito> I'm back
21:11 < onuelito> in black
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--- Log closed Wed Aug 05 00:00:08 2026