--- Log opened Mon Aug 10 00:00:15 2026
00:00 -!- echelon [~steerpike@gateway/tor-sasl/steerpike] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
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01:40 < tangentnet> Is daemonforums.org down?
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01:47 -!- treefrob_ is now known as treefrob
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02:18 -!- xkcd8 is now known as xkcd
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04:20 -!- eki [~eki@88-148-144-32.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Quit: leaving]
04:20 -!- chasmo77 [~chas77@c-76-105-254-179.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: It's just that easy]
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04:35 -!- gknux [~gknux@user/galaxy-knuckles/x-3015990] has quit [Quit: ....and i am outta here....]
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06:02 -!- Guest9045 is now known as isakBSD[]
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12:29 < andchi> what are some ways i can minimize my reliance on the browser? i use the firefox to browse the mailing list archive, but I suspect there is a better way to go about this
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12:31 < sibiria> you can sign up to receive the e-mails. your mailboxes will explode
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12:35 < andchi> mm makes sense, hard to know what i will need to look at in the future, do people just subscribe to all of them and filter them? 
12:37 < andchi> I did subscribe to some of them a bit ago, but I still ended up searching the browser cause I have like 0.01% of the mailing list
12:38 < sibiria> i think people only subscribe to the list they are interested in. and most just browse one of the various archives online
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12:43 < aqsd> Do the ML's offer a digest mode?
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12:50 < andchi> oh yeah looks like they do didn't realize what that was
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12:52 < broke> I subscribed to the misc@ one
12:53 < broke> because that's the one where you can ask anything
12:53 < broke> andchi: I view the mailing list archive with Links+
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12:53 < broke> marc.info is minimal enough and Links+ renders it perfectly.
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12:55 < broke> I minimise my reliance on firefox to only things that strictly requires JS.
12:56 < broke> otherwise, just browsing normally firefox is too powerful for just that honestly *slow*
12:56 < andchi> broke: yeah i'm going for a similar setup with firefox. i have links on my system, i forget if that is links+
12:56 < broke> there's both, links+ is links2
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12:58 < broke> I do it like this, If I am going to browse to read text, Links. If I am going to browse for pictures, Dillo, If I am going to some JS website I TRUST, then firefox.
12:58 < andchi> mm, are u using noscript on firefox, or no need because u only visit sites u know u trust
12:59 < broke> I am using ublock origin, which has a noscript option
12:59 < broke> I only enable it on the stupid cloudflare challanges most of the time
12:59 < broke> It is super annoying
12:59 < broke> cloudflare should die :(
13:00 < andchi> oh yeah it's asking me if i want links+ without x11, aren't yo uable to get images if you use it with x11
13:00 < broke> I am pretty sure this is a bug that got patched but before on the stackexchange and likes pages where they had cloudflare POW whatever, I was enable to refresh the page enough for it to bypass on text browsers.
13:01 < andchi> hah nice trick
13:01 < broke> andchi: sure, but I use dillo for that instead.
13:01 < broke> It doesn't work anymore
13:01 < broke> life is sad
13:01 < andchi> bleh
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13:02 < broke> > Enable JavaScript and cookies to continue
13:02  * oldlaptop prefers dillo to links-on-x11, generally, and lynx to links-on-curses
13:02 < broke> This is now the most infamous webpage on the internet
13:03 < broke> I tried lynx, couldn't figure out how to move around in the jungle
13:03 < oldlaptop> w3m can display images in xterm if both are set up just right, which is a neat party trick if nothing else
13:04 < andchi> aw yeah dillo is fast, what the heck. we could have nice things huh, thanks for mentioning that
13:04 < oldlaptop> netsurf is also interesting
13:04 < broke> (made in the 90s :P)
13:04 < broke> I didn't feel like netsurf had any places between dillo and firefox
13:04 < oldlaptop> none of them are really CSS2-conformant (dillo is not even CSS1-conformant)
13:05 < oldlaptop> netsurf is genuinely better at CSS conformance.
13:05 < broke> but being gtk honestly kills me
13:05 < broke> I'd wish netsurf, but in FLTK
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13:06 < oldlaptop> https://openports.pl/path/www/netsurf/netsurf-fb
13:07 < oldlaptop> (though you're really not going to be able to get away with "no GTK ever!!1")
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13:10 < broke> oh nice
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13:11 < andchi> i wonder how long i could go without firefox ah mm
13:12 < andchi> guess it is cheating if i use another computer with firefox on it ... mm :P
13:14 < broke> one could just ditch firefox entirely, if they do not have websites that require JS, but because cloudflare POW is everywhere and they do not care about text or minimal browsers, you are pretty much stuck.
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13:24 < puffybuf> bug   decrypting an encrypted USB OpenBSD install makes it unbootable. So much for my encrypted 'rescue' drive :-/ I wonder can I make it bootable again? I'll just reinstall, but would this also happen the other way? If I decrypted my HD from USB openbsd would it become unbootable as well?
13:30 < sibiria> doesn't sound right. i have an FDE install on USB memory stick (and in the past also on USB HD). works fine. i treat it the same way as any other FDE
13:31 < sibiria> don't pull the USB device out without it having synced correctly
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13:34 < quinq> Is it not supposed to be RO anyway?
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13:35 < sibiria> a bit if hoop-jumping for that, but it does help particularly with USB memory sticks
13:36 < sibiria> mounting /var as tmpfs and skipping kernel relinking, etc.
13:36 < sibiria> puffybuf: fuguita might be an option for you
13:36 < sibiria> https://fuguita.org/
13:37 < pardis> generally, one should not jump straight to the conclusion that unexpected behaviour is a bug, especially if it is a common thing lots of people do
13:38 < pardis> (how would you boot an encrypted OpenBSD *without* unlocking it?)
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13:45 < quinq> Apparently fuguita only works on Windows
13:46 < quinq> “FuguIta can be used on the following systems: Standard Windows PCs”
13:46 < broke> is this a VM in windows/
13:46 < broke> ?*
13:47 < quinq> Maybe yeah
13:48 < sibiria> no
13:48 < sibiria> it's a bootable live version of openbsd, for USB memory stick or whatever storage you prefer
13:49 < broke> ah
13:49 < broke> so an already setup live openbsd system to experience
13:49 < oldlaptop> written by someone whose English is a hell of a lot better than at least my Japanese :P
13:49 < sibiria> broke: yes
13:50 < broke> I'm confused to puffybuf's question though, it didn't make sense.
13:53 < broke> I see that he said he decrypted it? right? and decryption was successful, but didn't boot? should have shown some kind of error?
13:54 < broke> He didn't share the error or the log verbally even.
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14:46 < sonofaglitch> Well folks, is there a way to extract the default version of a config file that came with 'pkg_add'? Tried 'pkg_add' again, played with 'pkg_add -D repair=1 (..)' but so far no luck. Any pointers please?
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14:48 < sonofaglitch> P.S. Tried the "reapair" stuff since at the time I asked first y'day a discussion was going on and mentioned it so I got confused. Do not think it was meant at me.
14:49 < broke> remove the config file and run pkg_add -D repair=1 with the pkg name it should work
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14:59 < sonofaglitch> Not getting anywhere broke; https://pastebin.com/MNwvdvKV
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16:11 < unpx> I don't know where is the right place to ask such a question, so I'll ask to opinionated people here. Having a workstation that is able to manage multiple disks, shall I separate Documents and Archives from OS disk? What would you use and SSD or an HDD for? I have two spare 1TB SSD and some 2TB+ HDD that I can install. I am considering using one SSD for the OS, one for the Documents, and the HDD for the Archives.
16:12 < unpx> Archives e.g. pictures I offload from phone and look at once in a year or so, or other media
16:14 < unpx> If you believe this conversation should go somewhere else, please point me to the correct channel for this kind of "meta" discussion
16:15 < ssm_> I have no idea how you'd even use 1TB storage on openbsd in a desktop setting, but I'd put the infrequently accessed stuff on the HDD, and then mkdir -m0 some permanent mount location /somewhere
16:17 < ssm_> sensitive media on hdd since it's write-in-place and you can use rm -P
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16:19 < thrig> 1TB could be gone through quickly if you're doing various audio or video work
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16:20 < ssm_> I have a really poorly partitioned install from 2017 I'm still using as my daily driver and I can't get close to 128G
16:20 < ssm_> and I play a LOT of dcss, the morgue dir is huge
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16:22 < ssm_> I guess \2\1legally down(l)oad(i)ng a bunch of anime takes up a lot of space
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16:29 < unpx> ssm_: not really openbsd, I'm on debian because games and some proprietary software, so you could imagine that the OS disk on the OBSD case would be much smaller (even with full install of xonotic, texlive, ...), and the OS disk is for spare VMs and stuff I want to try. I struggle to find a coherent philosophy. Main goal of this build was trying to move all data in one place so I could easily manage it and backup it properly (on disks that are not attached to t
16:29 < unpx> he pc).
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16:32 < ssm_> disklabel(8) describes the automatic partition layout for limited space systems. otherwise if you regret the size you made, you can repartition and use growfs(8). growfs is very limited compared to contemporary implementations (adjacency is important, no shrinking), so make sure your home partition is your last partition
16:34 < ssm_> also, unlike most systems the disklabel is stored internally in a single mbr or gpt partition by default, so that will also need to be resized
16:35 < ssm_> openbsd partitioning is weird and has a bunch of legacy cruft. please consult the Caveat Emperor for complaints
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16:38 < unpx> Maybe I'm over bandaging my head before breaking it, and indeed I should just use one disk until I see that I need a separate disk
16:39 < ssm_> I last read about this several years ago, but dual booting openbsd with anything not-openbsd can be tricky
16:39 < ssm_> maybe grub works more good now
16:39 < ssm_> if you're on efi you can just create separate boot entries and it's easy
16:40 < unpx> I was able to dualboot with Windows once, but not really much of an advantage, it would be better to run it inside a VM, possibly on a dedicated server away from laptops and production
16:42 < sibiria> rEFInd always makes dual-booting easy and trouble-free
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16:52 < echelon> i can vouch for refind as well
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16:57 < unpx> Moreover, a thing to consider is usage of SSD since keeping it half full seems ruining it
16:59 < Bradipo> A half full SSD ruins the SSD?
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17:05 < sibiria> no but wear'n'tear gets more focused, to a smaller and smaller area
17:06 < sibiria> it's not really a problem unless you have very high number of writes and just a little amount of space left
17:06 < sibiria> wouldn't be surprised if modern SSD controllers do some copy-on-write shoveling to improve on wear leveling
17:07 < sibiria> more than the usual wear leveling which rotates across unallocated blocks, that is
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17:11 < ssm_> bad storage hardware tbh; no write in place, no magnet delete (it's a feature!!!), just dies if you use it enough; I want my hdd back
17:11 < ssm_> also chs mode is relevant again
17:14 < sibiria> they sure have a lot of caveats. but the read-speed is pretty neat
17:16 < Bradipo> I still use platter drives.
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17:17 < Bradipo> At least for data partitions.
17:17 < Bradipo> For OS booting, I don't mind SSD.  If it dies, I can reinstall.
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17:17 < sibiria> i use HDDs for everything important. SSD only for the OS and programs - the things i can bear to lose
17:17 < Bradipo> Of course backups are critical no matter what.
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17:28 < pardis> the last time I looked into it, word on the street was that modern SSDs already do enough wear levelling magic that it's not a concern
17:28 < pardis> and that was about 10 years ago
17:30 < ssm_> i don't care if hdds fail sooner! the idea that nonvolatile flash memory must fail after a specific amount of writes is bad hypothetically and I have the one hdd that will last infinite time
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17:32 < sibiria> the fact that the storage itself needs electrical charge to keep going doesn't sit well with me. a lot more ways the data can go poof
17:39 < thrig> entropy never sleeps
17:43 < pardis> that's only relevant if you either have no backups or have a use case where loss of data since the last backup every 10 years or so is catastrophic
17:43 < pardis> which you might do, but I don't
17:43 < IcePic> its not entropy unless it comes from the french region Randon, otherwise its just sparkling bytes.
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17:48 < sibiria> pardis: in my opinion durability and resilience is always relevant, backups or not
17:49 < pardis> I agree in principle, but there's a question of degree
17:50 < pardis> we're not talking about something that loses your data twice a week
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17:50 < sibiria> just wait until the EMP wars happen
17:51 < sibiria> we'll be reconsidering DVD-R backups and Milennium(r) discs
17:51 < sibiria> my point is of course that relying on flash memory of any kind for backups and persistence is extremely unwise
17:52 < sibiria> i'm not anti SSD. i just choose my weapons carefully
17:53 < sibiria> OS goes on SSD. grandma's recipe book and backups go on spinning rust
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17:58 < pardis> I'd use HDD for backups too, that way my primary copy on SSD isn't critical
17:59 < pardis> (my actual backups are in cloud storage at the moment, so the choice doesn't really apply)
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17:59 < ssm_> for archive isn't tape still best?
18:00 < ssm_> maybe it's cheaper with hdd and ssd prices getting price fixed?
18:00 < pardis> isn't tape very expensive compared to modern HDDs?
18:00 < pardis> plus unpredictable seek times make restoration annoying
18:00 < ssm_> the readers are expensive I think, but the tape itself I'm unsure
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18:01 < ssm_> but you can run tar without flags which is really good
18:01 < cgnarne> if you can get a lto drive that works with your setup it can work
18:02 < sibiria> for crazy amounts of data and little time spent actually digging around in the data to restore it, tape pays off. i think it's hard for it to be beneficial to a typical consumer
18:03 < cgnarne> mhm, yeah. that's a good point
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18:06 < Bradipo> I would buy tape for my personal use if it weren't so expensive.
18:06 < Bradipo> Bring back the DAT tapes!
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18:07 < sibiria> the last time i saw and used a tape backup was at work, 25 years ago. we paid in then-money 14 000 SEK for the unit, and it was considered entry/mid-tier
18:07 < sibiria> 14 000 SEK buys a lot of terabytes in regular HDDs
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18:07 < Bradipo> The LTO are great for corporations, but DAT tapes work well enough for consumers.  But nobody cares about backups in the consumer field.
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18:15 < sibiria> Bradipo: though DAT tapes aren't made anymore, are they?
18:16 < sibiria> not even DDS as far as i know
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18:37 < broke> I have multiple 1 TB HDDs and a SATA to USB cable to access them.
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18:38 < broke> my internal storage isn't that much just like 128 GB
18:38 < broke> and its an SSD, because that matters
18:39 < broke> Newer laptops has both SATA and m.2/nvme as well they can benefit from that I guess
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18:41 < broke> I was thinking of getting another 128 GB SSD only so that I can probably install Linux on it for some light gaming purposes my laptop, because I'm not that experienced in obsd to be able to run some games on it. It is possible I know, but I don't know. I tried using my controller with a NES Tetris with mednafen didn't work.
18:43 < broke> but certainly, the prices for them are insane, and getting bigger sizes SSDs are just a waste of time.
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18:45 < sibiria> broke: the german discount brand INTENSO still sells very cheap 128GB SSDs on amazon, both 2.5" SATA and M.2 SATA
18:45 < sibiria> their NVMe equivalents cost a little bit more
18:46 < broke> I don't buy storage new, I just find one with a good lifetime
18:46 < broke> new prices are always insane.
18:47 < sibiria> not Intenso's prices for 128 GB
18:47 < broke> also, how much is the 128 GB is are we talking about?
18:47 < broke> intenso's 128 gb
18:47 < sibiria> 30 EUR or so for the SATA ones
18:47 < polarian> so is npppd faster than the pppoe(4)?
18:47 < polarian> otherwise I wouldn't see the benefit of using npppd
18:48 < sibiria> some time ago i saw that they're even selling TWO of those 2.5" SATA SSDs for 35 eur
18:48 < polarian> ah, pipex exists, which brings ppp inkernel
18:48 < sibiria> 2.5" SATA being close to niche device these days, and 128 GB being "too small", they're probably dumping their stock units
18:48 < broke> 128 GB SSDs with around 800 hours runtime, going for ~$13 used.
18:49 < broke> its like you can get two 128s for the price of one new
18:49 < sibiria> for SSDs it's better to look at bytes-written rather than runtime
18:50 < broke> you are right.
18:50 < sibiria> with SSDs the latter has a tendency to only be counted during active read/write
18:51 < broke> well most SSDs advertise with their lifetime count instead of bytes written, that's what I presumed the way to go for. But yeah, now that I think about it, wear is depended on bytes written
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18:51 < sibiria> my 4-5 year old boot NVMe has according to S.M.A.R.T a powered-on-hours count of 1200-something hours
18:52 < sibiria> should be at least another zero on there to be realistic
18:52 < broke> I see
18:53 < broke> thanks for the small tip actually
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18:57 < broke> '
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19:28 < unpx> Bradipo: that's the whole point of having a separate disk for data :)
19:28 < unpx> Just trying to figure out how not to waste it
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19:40 < CC-kun> https://www.cambus.net/taiwanese-bbses-and-unicode-ansi-art/
19:40 < CC-kun> comfy :)
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19:43 < CC-kun> oh sorry wrong channel
19:43 < CC-kun> Meant for ##chat, my apologies
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