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07:46 < broke> oldlaptop: Hello, are you able to get pass cloudflare check in netsurf? Thought I'd try to view them in netsurf instead of firefox, but tada nope :(
07:47 < broke> I wish I could bypass this entirely.
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08:40 < quinq> Abandon hope, ye who enter the web
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08:50 < il> why
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09:09 < sonya> hello.. 01:00.0 Network controller: Intel Corporation Wi-Fi 6E(802.11ax) AX210/AX1675* 2x2 [Typhoon Peak] (rev 1a)  -- return iwx0: radio is disabled by hardware switch  --- but all works for Linux.. any thoughts? thanks!
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09:38 < sibiria> sonya: do you have the necessary firmware installed?
09:38 < sibiria> i think all iwx(4) devices need some
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09:40 < sonya> sibiria: sure, fw_update passed
09:40 < sonya> dmesg doesn't show "not configured" for ax210
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10:14 < renaud> sonya: isn't there a key on your keyboard to enable/disable wifi?
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10:24 < quinq> renaud :>
10:26 < renaud> that key might work in linux acpi, so linux could force it to on, but maybe OpenBSD can't
10:26 < renaud> it's always useful to try out
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10:56 < sonya> renaud: thanks, the kbd from this book (Acer VN7-591) → https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/hY4AAOSw9VJa6uqx/s-l1600.jpg → have a special "Fn + F3" key, but no effect for OpenBSD (7.9-stable).. # rfkill (for Linux) shows no "blocks" for HARD and SOFT (reports "unblocked").. seems that hw sends "block radio" and no "rfkill" for OpenBSD..
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12:31 < vortexx> sonya: did you try cold boot linux, turn laptop off then cold boot openbsd? is there any other OS on this machine that might be interfering?
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12:40 < sonya> renaud: sibiria: vortexx: → got "the solution": close the lid, turn off power via long press of pwr button, open lid, turn power "on" → it works.. "acer" with it's mojo and voodoo (!)..  thanks!
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12:47 < sonya> renaud: sibiria: vortexx: → got "the solution": close the lid, turn off power via long press of pwr button, open lid, turn power "on" → it works.. "acer" with it's mojo and voodoo (!)..  thanks!
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12:49 < sibiria> if it works, it works
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15:00 < vortexx> sonya: well done
15:00 < vortexx> you're lucky the power button is accessible with the lid closed, plenty of laptop models don't have that
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15:19 < broke> vortexx: is there even needed?
15:19 < broke> perhaps to boot ealier?
15:19 < broke> earlier*
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15:31 < vortexx> broke: I don't follow you
15:31 < vortexx> ?
15:31 < broke> > you're lucky the power button is accessible with the lid
15:31 < broke> meaning a side power button I'd guess
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15:40 < vortexx> broke: yes I meant a side fitted power button, but what does "perhaps to boot earlier" mean? Turning on the laptop before opening the lid?
15:41 < broke> yes
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15:43 < broke> oldlaptop: sorry to repeat what I said around 12 hours ago, do you happen to know if you are able to get through cloudflare challenge (turnstile its called I think) in netsurf?
15:44 < broke> With the recent (unknown) patch of not being to use a bug to bypass cloudflare, my life has been hell.
15:44 < broke> modern web was already pretty horrible, and cloudflare users are ruining the internet.
15:46 < oldlaptop> I would not expect netsurf to solve "challenges" that (say) seamonkey can't.
15:47 < oldlaptop> It technically has a Javascript engine, but it is incomplete (and disabled by default for that reason).
15:48 < rcf> If it's not Chrome, or maybe Firefox, it's not really welcome on the modern web. 
15:49 < oldlaptop> (and seamonkey is, in an engineering sense, just old firefox)
15:50 < broke> I didn't notice that seamonkey didn't even support that......
15:50 < oldlaptop> Safari/Webkit, sorta, kinda counts, because it's on iOS.
15:50 < sibiria> safari works fine on the modern web, both mobile and desktop. opera, too
15:50 < oldlaptop> (and AIUI Apple continues to forbid other engines on iOS)
15:50 < oldlaptop> Opera is Chrome.
15:50 < oldlaptop> (It wasn't, at one time, but now it is.)
15:51 < broke> well damn, I'm forced to use firefox to view those webpages now
15:51 < sibiria> apple allows other engines on ios since early 2024
15:51 < sibiria> in select markets
15:52 < sibiria> EU being the most prominent one. i think some asian countries, too
15:52 < oldlaptop> Aaaaah.
15:52 < sibiria> US probably not
15:52 < sibiria> it was part of the same "deal" that opened up for alternative "app stores"
15:53 < sibiria> big ships move slowly
15:53 < sibiria> maybe there will be an actual alternative browser in a few years more
15:53 < broke> they should just stop caring about worldwide already, they have enough revenue and an infrastructure in the US that isn't replicatable worldwide
15:54 < rcf> There is no such thing as 'enough revenue'. 
15:54 < oldlaptop> Or if the same sorts of deals spread, Webkit will also become untenable in a few years and it'll be down to two, not two-and-a-half-ish.
15:54 < broke> I know, just saying :)
15:54 < broke> any discussion about the web ends up being a headache for everyone in the chat.
15:56 < sonya> afair, there was an examples of netsurf binaries compiled with "deno" or other js-engines.. not stable though.. i'm using proxies to strip-off all js, but this approach is not for "banking" or other sensitive stuff..
15:56 < oldlaptop> Netsurf comes with a not-really-baked JS engine, there's not really any call to duct-tape another not-really-baked JS engine to it.
15:58 < broke> Well, netsurf isn't to fault for that half-baked JS whatever, it is cloudflare for being an ass.
15:58 < broke> Truth be told, websites have half baked JS, that full baked browsers render in the broken style.
15:58 < oldlaptop> Strictly speaking, it is a property of Netsurf that its Javascript support is incomplete.
15:58 < oldlaptop> and in that sense that is "its fault".
15:59 < broke> both are at fault, lets say that
15:59 < broke> however rather than picking faults, we want things to work. But this is the age.
16:00 < broke> firefox is unbearably slow, and for the same tasks that is blazing fast on my text browser or dillo. I do not understand how did we end up this way.
16:00 < ssm_> netsurf ends up just being more broken than links -g or dillo in my experience. most webpages assume a combination of js+css, and just having css support (duktape does basically nothing) turns many corposlop websites into an unreadable mess, while links and dillo (and mothra) do fine
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16:01 < broke> ssm_: as oldlaptop said, netsurf has much better CSS conformance.
16:01 < broke> and it has.
16:01 < oldlaptop> Dillo has "CSS support".
16:02 < broke> I'm not if its this build, but Wikipedia CSS is broken
16:02 < oldlaptop> (Neither dillo nor netsurf has particularly *good* CSS support, as measured by conformance with the applicable standards, but netsurf's is closer.)
16:02 < broke> I saw in the website that dillo supports wikipedia css
16:04 < broke> The way I see and makes it easier for me to use Links+ instead of dillo most of the time is that I find CSS, or the CSS people use, and the rendering of the texts, almost unreadable. For instance, Wikipedia in Links+ is more readable than Dillo.
16:04 < drathir_tor> ssm_: not sure if present in repo but luakit could works for fast checking more demanded ones... still good to be aware if care to prevent cookies/js than probably ff+privacy addons more suited to load that "knowledge demanding" websites...
16:08 < ssm_> luakit is gtkwebkit
16:08 < drathir_tor> broke: text oldschool lynx could be sometimes more useful than links under problematic websites...
16:08 < ssm_> if I want to slop it up that hard I'll use www/librewolf or www/qutebrowser
16:08 < broke> drathir_tor: example
16:09 < ssm_> at least librewolf has pledge and unveil
16:09 < broke> librewolf is in the repo?
16:09 < ssm_> -current only right now
16:10 < broke> oh ok, good to know
16:10 < ssm_> I tried backporting but ran into a problem I couldn't figure out how to fix
16:10 < drathir_tor> ssm_: yep its hardly depend how much chosen website require to correctly load and if that will works with light alternatives...
16:11 < ssm_> if you need more than mothra you webpage sucks and I hate it
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16:11 < ssm_> if your website uses anubis I hate AI scrapers but I also hate your website; serve poison instead please
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16:14 < drathir_tor> broke: from head hard to catch now one which come to my head for fast duckduckgo tor had problems lately with links but lynx get it access corectly...
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16:15 < drathir_tor> ssm_: ++ totally agree better drop problematic website than cross sacrifice limits... 
16:15 < ssm_> anubis people really think they'll beat Datacenters United in a compute battle
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16:16 < ssm_> goaway is better and has a nojs bypass by default, but anubis is still everywhere
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16:20 < rcf> The Linux kernel is especially horrible because they've been setting difficulty to maximum for me, so it's actually much, much faster to ask an LLM and risk being wrong than access the source material. Which I guess is their goal these days.
16:23 < broke> ssm_: every discussion of the web ends with hating the web.
16:23 < broke> :(
16:24 < ssm_> as is tradition
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16:24 < broke> in particular, I go to stackexchange for some answers and got hit with the "Please enable javascript or cookies to continue".
16:24 < ssm_> you don't hate the web, you hate standards pushed by non-expert owned entrenched power structures
16:25 < broke> thanks for gatekeeping information :)
16:25 < broke> ssm_: you are right
16:25 < broke> drathir_tor: I just use plain duckduckgo html
16:26 < broke> crazy how fast I get a result compared to even a gui browser on a high end machine
16:26 < broke> ssm_: there is also fail2ban that fails to ban.
16:26 < ssm_> waow
16:27 < andchi> i setup vnstat and now i'm way more conscious of my internet usage
16:27 < drathir_tor> broke: definitely preffer old "ugly" web than "new" shiny/sparkling current one which often is barely usable...
16:27 < broke> same here.
16:27 < ssm_> we don't have fail2ban though. or pkglocate says we don't. we have connection and state overloading though
16:28 < broke> fail2ban is stupid.
16:28 < broke> The way I stopped the few bots on my server is just to blackhole them entirely from my router.
16:28 < broke> checked the logs, copied the IP address, and put them in the blackhole (gtfo) list.
16:29 < vortexx> broke: you know why cloudflare is being used all over the place right?
16:29 < broke> because its a worldwide CDN.
16:30 < vortexx> (and also all these web discussions could be on #openbsd-social)
16:30 < vortexx> no, because they protect from DDoS
16:30 < vortexx> and too many sites are getting DDoS'd or crawled by bots
16:30 < vortexx> notably AI
16:30 < broke> and now we fight fire with ice.
16:31 < ssm_> <scraper DDoS> this is a message from god to use fewer CGI scripts 
16:31 < broke> ^
16:32 < vortexx> hell, even the OpenBSD cvs html repo had to change technologies to prevent the scraping
16:32 < broke> as did a lot of other repos.
16:33 < byteskeptical> ssm_: connection and state overloading along with connection max requests on httpd have been working really well for me.
16:33 < broke> ^ I do this too
16:34 < broke> being slow just enough for a human to not notice, and be annoying for bots.
16:35 < ssm_> every subsequent connection lowers pf.conf(5) probability by 10%
16:35 < byteskeptical> yeah for me it was just making sure the bots don't take over the load on the server and pinning the cpu for hours on end
16:35 < broke> with that, you don't even need to care about DDoS. But you will still get scrapers.
16:36 < broke> I still don't know how to gtfo the scrapers
16:36 < broke> and I guess I might as well not care.
16:36 < byteskeptical> do you not add them to a pf table?
16:37 < broke> I am going to move my homeserver to obsd soon :) but for now what I do is check the webserver logs and see for bot agents and names and add them into my router's blackhole list.
16:37 < byteskeptical> if they violate the connection and state overloads? There are also lists out there like the ones for adblocking of known bot ip's though that can bring it's own hurdles
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16:38 < byteskeptical> broke: o I see sorry I assumed you were already running openbsd, that works too just a lot more work for you
16:39 < broke> no worries, I am going to switch over to obsd soon
16:39 < broke> one reason for switching it on my laptop was to experience obsd
16:40 < byteskeptical> very nice, that's a good plan especially before running it as your router
16:40 < broke> also yes, it is a lot of work, I could also do something in the Linux iptables and whatnot, but I thought I might as well add it to the router's list not for any major particular reason. I think I might setup a OBSD router as well, so that I can just ssh into it and at it to the router's pf table.
16:41 < broke> "running it as your router" unfortunately, I am not sure if I will be able to do that for personal reason
16:41 < broke> reasons*
16:41 < broke> :)
16:41 < broke> That and I have to find a OBSD certified router hardware.
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16:42 < sibiria> no such thing as official certification
16:42 < sibiria> most things work
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16:43 < broke> Also, I'm not sure how people approach this, do you just get a normal router and install obsd or you make your own?
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16:44 < sibiria> look for something that suits you, maybe search for the platform/model on the mailing lists or the nybug dmesg collection, or ask on the mailing lists
16:44 < byteskeptical> broke: Most get supported hardware and make it their router
16:45 < sibiria> if it's x86-64 it will mostly always work. exceptions aren't many
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16:47 < byteskeptical> well I would still be worried about nic support though most do work. There is a range in performance even amongst the supported ones.
16:49 < broke> I think I will probably ask this on misc@
16:50 < byteskeptical> broke: trying to use an actual router is probably the hardest path unless you know it is already supported hardware. You will still need a wifi solution as well. I would search the old threads on misc before asking again, that question is asked several times a year and things don't usually change that fast.
16:51 < sibiria> i wouldn't worry too much about the NIC unless it's something new. a quick apropos search usually settles the question
16:51 < sibiria> most of the usual suspects from realtek and intel work fine
16:52 < broke> about the wifi, I heard openbsd APs doesn't have that great of a wireless performance.
16:52 < broke> or something......
16:52 < sibiria> they don't have great anything
16:53 < broke> well I am on a 120 mbps connection, perhaps nothing to worry about.
16:53 < byteskeptical> or support you definitely want to run a seperate AP for wireless unfortunately
16:53 < sibiria> very few wifi chipsets can do hostAP mode on openbsd, among those even fewer have acceptably modern speeds
16:53 < drathir_tor> broke: if You have enough resources You can also just put bots into honeypot and let it get stuck in loop on separate hw...
16:53 < sibiria> my advice is to avoid running openbsd itself as an AP. use an external device with openwrt or something
16:53 < quinq> It usually works better yes
16:53 < byteskeptical> That's work I would love to sponsor when I save up a bit of money
16:53 < quinq> Wi-Fi is still broken
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16:53 < quinq> But it works less worse
16:54 < broke> I see, so it would be used as an AP before a normal router?
16:54 < quinq> Yeah, bridge it
16:54 < drathir_tor> broke: i guess You can also search as hint opnsense capable routers it should be pretty compatibile...
16:56 < vortexx> it's not because your uplink is slowish that wifi should be slow too, you may have resources on your lan able to deliver over 120Mbps
16:56 < drathir_tor> yea openwrt for ap also good idea...
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16:57 < quinq> vortexx, claro
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17:05 < oldlaptop> consider also that wi-fi clients contend with each other for that bandwidth, it's not like modern ethernet where every pair of nodes is expected to have their own private collision domain
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17:13 < vortexx> they do, but I tend to minimize the number of wifi clients on my lan. Everything that can be is cabled in
17:13 < vortexx> So it's just my phone and my laptop
17:14 < vortexx> even the ebook reader isn't allowed to connect
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17:22 < oldlaptop> That's a benefit of an OpenBSD AP! Automatic, severe penalty for failing to get the $thing wired in.
17:23  * oldlaptop can confirm, having run an OpenBSD AP at home for the last five years or something
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17:34 < thrig> I kept finding 10/100 hubs on a gigabit network not too long ago...
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17:35 < oldlaptop> hey, if I need another port and all I've got lying around is a 10/100 hub...
17:35 < sibiria> do you work in the IBM Backrooms?
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17:50 < sonya>  oldlaptop: what is your AP model?
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17:52 < oldlaptop> I have a ral(4) in an APU4.
17:52 < oldlaptop> It works-ish.
17:52 < sonya> thanks.. thought so.. ral
17:52 < sibiria> i used ral(4) for about 10 years. rock solid. but stuck at 11g speeds, so about 22 mbit/s
17:52 < sibiria> happy to have moved over to openwrt
17:53 < avemestr>  Also, a lot of "Smart TVs" do whatever latest and greatest 802.11 wifi... but have a 10/100 ethernet port. So stuttering when using ethernet, works as intended using wifi.
17:54 < sonya> i'm searching usb models, if any, capable at least for 65mbit/s
17:55 < sibiria> that's 802.11n territory, and 11n/ac/ax support is super thin right now
17:55 < sibiria> you'll be searching for centuries; millennia, even
17:56 < sonya> true^ :)
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18:04 < Skullheadx> Hey, is man.openbsd.org down?
18:05 < ivdsangen> no
18:14 < oldlaptop> seems to be running pretty quick from this end
18:16 < byteskeptical> man not down for me
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18:21 < uwharrie> your IP (block) may have been blacklisted, either give it some time or see misc@ for contact info for getting unblocked
18:22 < oldlaptop> Aaaah, right.
18:22 -!- memset [~memset@gateway/tor-sasl/memset] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:22  * oldlaptop keeps forgetting there's an apocalypse going on
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18:23 < uwharrie> all it takes is one person you share a IP block or CGNAT IP renting their connection out to AI scrapers...
18:24 < oldlaptop> Without necessarily knowing they're doing it.
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18:31 < thrig> aslopalypse now
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18:39 < Skullheadx> uwharrie: you're probably right. I can reach it easily on my phone on celullar connection
18:40 < Skullheadx> how do they host man pages? Maybe I should put up my own web docs 
18:43 < sibiria> https://man.ifconfig.se
18:47 < Skullheadx> sibiria: thanks. Did you make this? I like the FTS idea
18:48 < sibiria> no, it's zelest's project
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18:54 < oldlaptop> man.openbsd.org is man.cgi, and (if you look, at the front page) has... a manual page
18:55 < oldlaptop> man.bsd.lv is another instance, but the OpenBSD pages haven't been kept up to date for a while now
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18:57 < Skullheadx> oldlaptop: Wait I kind of like the lv one because then I can just generate all the man pages into html and use httpd for it
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18:58 < oldlaptop> cvsweb.openbsd.org actually does seem to be down (unless I'm banned from that and not man.openbsd.org!), but man.cgi is just part of mandoc that (unless I'm missing something?) is not hooked up to the build: https://github.com/openbsd/src/blob/master/usr.bin/mandoc/Makefile
18:59 < oldlaptop> you'd `make man.cgi` from /usr/src/usr.bin/mandoc and otherwise read man.cgi's manual page
18:59 < oldlaptop> It's not a static site, although you could do such a thing in principle (using mandoc)
19:00 < cgnarne> oldlaptop: works for me
19:00 < oldlaptop> ...and for me too now
19:01 < oldlaptop> Nicer link, then :P https://cvsweb.openbsd.org/checkout/src/usr.bin/mandoc/Makefile,v?rev=1.120
19:01 < mischief> don't even need to make it, you can just `usr.bin/mandoc/man.cgi.8`
19:01 < mischief> er. `man usr.bin/mandoc/man.cgi.8`
19:02 < oldlaptop> Well, if you want the program you need to build it
19:02 < oldlaptop> (I suppose you *should* read the manual *before* you compile it.)
19:03 < zelest> Skullheadx, that's what I do, I use 'mandoc -T html'
19:03 < broke> there is a thing from alpine linux I think probably could be a good thing for openbsd as well. They separate docs with the program in the package like pkg and pkg-docs. But normally I want to be able to install pkg with its docs but that isn't how it works in alpine. But what I thought would be the best would be to have pkg have the docs and pkg-docs to have the doc. Then you can just pkg_add pkg-doc, and 
19:03 < broke> do man pkg (or something), without potentially needing to go read some html manpages on the internet.
19:04 < broke> Sorry, I said this out of nowhere without context, I thought this might be a good thing to say.
19:04 < oldlaptop> If a package has manual pages, it has manual pages. :|
19:04 < broke> but you need to install the pkg to read the manpage.
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19:05 < Skullheadx> zelest: does that generate all of the manpages?
19:05 < oldlaptop> Well no. It generates HTML when fed a manual page.
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19:05 < zelest> what oldlaptop said
19:05 < oldlaptop> If you want to convert a whole tree of manual pages to HTML you'd need to arrange that yourself
19:05 < zelest> I've generated the plain text version for FTS, indexed it.. and when it's requested, the user gets the HTML version
19:06 < zelest> It's horrible code.. and PHP.. but it's fast and works..
19:06 < oldlaptop> I'd assume man.cgi is using the same code (it's certainly built from the same source tree)
19:06 < broke> Also, may I ask why is this being discussed? the HTML version?
19:06 < oldlaptop> <broke> but you need to install the pkg to read the manpage.
19:06 < oldlaptop> I would ordinarily think you won't care about a package's documentation, if you don't even want the package installed.
19:07 < oldlaptop> As much as perldoc is artful writing, you probably still aren't going to be reading it if you don't have perl.
19:07 < oldlaptop> (not a package anyway, but never mind)
19:08 < broke> That's true. So I'm confused why would anyone consider reading a manpage from man.openbsd.org? I might be dumb but might as well ask, sorrry.
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19:08 < oldlaptop> The conversation (at least as I understood!) was on the subject of self-hosting something like man.openbsd.org.
19:08 < zelest> My goal with my site was to not have to grep in /usr/share/man/ when I looked for something
19:08 < cgnarne> broke: no. what alpine does is really annoying. i hate that
19:08 < broke> cgnarne: I know, I agree
19:08 -!- dorp is now known as boplaid
19:08 < broke> I hate it too
19:08 < zelest> broke, I wanted FTS
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19:09 < oldlaptop> A web interface can be nice insofar as it works without OpenBSD (or a unix man(1) system more generally) at all, e.g. from a smartphone.
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19:11 < broke> I see, that is a fair point.
19:11 < broke> :)
19:11 < broke> however I have never done that.
19:11 < broke> most of the times I've read a manpage is to solve a problem using it.
19:11 < broke> so its always on the laptop/desktop
19:12 < Skullheadx> broke: I'm planning out an upgrade to my system, so I like having the man pages open on my browser so I flick around between them
19:13 < broke> reason being?
19:14 < Skullheadx> I don't have access to my openbsd box at the moment.
19:14 < broke> Uh.... you are unable to read the manpage while upgrading your system?
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19:16 < Skullheadx> broke: I am a noob, so I need to read the man pages to understand how to do things
19:16 < broke> Then I am a noob too.
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19:16 < carlomonte> eternal noob too
19:18 < broke> Nonetheless, I am failing to see the situation (which unfortunately I've not faced) where you are unable to read the manpage in the CLI, so please depict this situation you need the web man pages.
19:20 < Skullheadx> broke: I'm at work, and I don't want to give work computer access to my openbsd vps.
19:21 < Skullheadx> another situation when I'm at home is that I'm too lazy to bring up another terminal to ssh into the box just for a man page
19:22 < Skullheadx> Sometimes I end up with like 5 terminals open with a man page on each
19:22 < broke> I see your local machine in the first situation is not a openbsd machine, but why do you even need to read the manual then?
19:22 < broke> in the second situation, similarly, you are reading a openbsd manpage on a non-openbsd machine for what reason?
19:23 < Skullheadx> broke: on my lunch break so that when I go home, I can just do the thing
19:23 < Skullheadx> I use NixOS for my desktop, and servers. OpenBSD for routers and vps
19:24 < broke> you would ssh into your vps or router, and if you want to solve a problem there you'd read the manpage.
19:27 < Skullheadx> I guess my problem could be solved by using something like tmux on my vps/router
19:28 < broke> Ah.... ok now I see what you mean.
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19:30 < broke> Yeah, tmux is in the openbsd repos, and I think that should help you just fine.
19:30 < broke> I was thinking maybe it could be possible to do it another way.
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19:32 < mischief> bind / command-prompt "split-window 'exec man %%'"
19:32 < mischief> handy if you like manuals in tmux.
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20:13 < vortexx> broke: being able to look up the manpage for bioctl in particular can be handy when something isn't working and you don't have access to your usual openbsd devices
20:15 < pardis> also, some OpenBSD man pages are useful on other systemms
20:15 < pardis> I reference OpenBSD sed(1) when I want to know how to use GNU sed
20:16 < pardis> if you want to know why, try reading GNU sed(1)
20:16 < broke> no thanks :)
20:18 < broke> vortexx: I see, fair point as well :)
20:19 < broke> also I think the syntax for some command are different in BSD sed or OBSD sed(1) vs GNU sed(1), and I think GNU sed(1) will not understand some commands from BSD sed(1).
20:19 < broke> I don't remember which kind of example I saw, but I did see some kind of incompatiblity.
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20:27 < vortexx> mh a couple of reliability erratas landed today, I hadn't even noticed
20:28 < vortexx> npppd and iked
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20:54 < drathir_tor> Skullheadx: with cjdns access cjdns+tmux sounds as solid solution...
20:54 < drathir_tor> with cjdns/with vps*
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21:03 < Skullheadx> drathir_tor: why do I need cjdns when I could setup ssh + tmux?
21:03 < Bradipo> Why is tmux a factor in either?
21:04 < Skullheadx> Bradipo: Well if you want to have multiple man pages open at once on a remote server, you can use tmux or open more terminals
21:05 < Bradipo> I know what tmux is for, but I don't see the relationship between tmux and ssh or cjdns.
21:06 < Bradipo> Of course anyone using a remote system should be running tmux if they want to avoid dropped connections, etc.
21:07 < Bradipo> And then there's mosh.
21:09 < drathir_tor> Skullheadx: with it possible secure all used devices separate from clearnet and easier manage fw access with just allowing dedicated ipv6 addresses per device and get private encrypted ipv6 based connections to any service/server supporting ipv6 connections...
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21:12 < Skullheadx> Bradipo: is that a terminal multiplexer?
21:12 < drathir_tor> Bradipo: tmux useful on the go connections with mobile nework if You lose remote session than Yoyu always can reconnect to tmux and resume at the point where connection dropped... (even if cjdns is quite lag resistant tmux extra layer of stability to not loose what You work at)
21:12 < drathir_tor> lose/loose*
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21:13 < Skullheadx> drathir_tor: the problem isn't getting the vps and laptop to talk, it's more about who do I authorize to be on the server. Also how is this cjdns any different than wireguard
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21:15 < Bradipo> Skullheadx: No, it's not a terminal multiplexer... it's a terminal that is resilient to shoddy networks.
21:17 < Bradipo> Well, a "shell" really.
21:17 < Riviera> I mean to recall that mosh isn't actively developed anymore for many years now. Not sure I'd trust it.
21:17 < Riviera> A shell really? What makes you say that.
21:19 < drathir_tor> Skullheadx: with vps or incoming port opens access not really much different from wg wothout bc of mesh alike functionality could allows bypas nats and as long as device have in or out connection allows to conect into device... for vps not one save me when routing get messed or vps get issues with switch configuration (rare but apparently can happen) and just noticed of dc routing issues from event 
21:19 < drathir_tor> email notify as logged w/o issues by cjdns to vps... 
21:20 < Bradipo> Riviera: mo(sh)
21:20 < Bradipo> But yeah, 'twould be a pity if development on it had stopped.
21:21 < Riviera> Bradipo: names are just names.
21:21 < Riviera> Bradipo: Yeah, better check for yourself, I simply haven't used mosh in ages, so I do not know for certain.
21:21 < Bradipo> Well, the comment on the package says "mobile shell".
21:22 < Bradipo> Their own website says "Mosh (mobile shell)"
21:22 < Bradipo> Of course, maybe it's a misnomer.
21:23 < Riviera> Nah, it's aight. Let's call ssh a shell too!
21:23 < Bradipo> mosh has "recent" news of October 31, 2022.  That's more actively developed than qmail or djbdns. :-)
21:24 < Riviera> Now I do not know, but as an experienced pulling things out my arser I'd say ssh is called ssh because rsh was named like that because it "gives you a remote shell," not because it "is" one,
21:25 < Riviera> mosh then was inspired by the name "ssh," leading to Bradipo calling mosh a shell many years later.
21:26 < Bradipo> Riviera: Their own website calls it a shell.
21:26 < Bradipo> I'm not making this up.
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21:27 < Riviera> Bradipo: Yeah, I tried to say *why*
21:27 < Riviera> "Remote terminal application" is what they say, tho.
21:27 < Bradipo> Yeah, fine print.
21:27 < Riviera> "shell" is only the name, because rsh was called like that, probably because it was "giving a shell," not because it was understood to "be" one.
21:27 < Riviera> But then, I repeat myself. :)
21:28 < Riviera> One of the main purposes of giving things names is being arbitary from what things are.
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22:44 < topcat001> there is also zellij now
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--- Log closed Wed Aug 12 00:00:18 2026